Disneyland raised prices to shorten waits
latimes.com
latimes.com
The old Fastpass system required you to go visit a kiosk near the ride itself, and acquire a ticket for a specific time window later in the day, at which point you could go in via a shorter priority line. It worked great and was actually kind of fun.
I understand they would want to get rid of the physical passes the machine printed out as the machines were probably maintenance nightmares, but they did more than that. They changed the system entirely to an app, which is fine in itself, but they eliminated the need to visit the ride area to get the pass, which is part of what made the system fair. Instead, you can schedule the passes ahead of time, even for future days, and of course passholders and people staying at the park get priority, so all the popular rides' Fastpasses are already gone by the time the typical visitor is even able to attempt to schedule anything, which means they will just have to wait in the regular long line because there's no way smooth out the demand across the day anymore, since all the scheduling happens for a select group ahead of time without requiring any physical commitment.
In short, they sabotaged themselves, at least from this visitor's POV. Fastpass was one of my favorite bits of visiting Disney parks, but the new system is one of my LEAST favorite bits. Ah well.
I agree with your observations, but wanted to add that all the scheduling really takes the spontaneity out of visiting the theme parks. The moment you need to keep checking your phone to determine if you can make the next ride window, it's not a vacation anymore.
I understand the capacity of the parks has changed. I used to visit on 12/31 every year and understand what the MK is like with 100,000 people in it. But now it seems like the parks are running near capacity all the time.
Yes, at least in Disney Land this was my impression a few months ago. We intentionally went on a boring weekday when school was in session and it was still packed. The wait times were so terrible that you could maybe do 4 big rides in a full day.
The time spent walking to the ride can be considered part of the time you spend in line. So they shortened that.
That's something my dad taught me once, by putting popular rides far from each other in a park, you should realize your "time spent waiting for the ride" is not just time in the line, but the time it takes for you to get to the line also.
However per friends working for Mickey, the new system will not allow SoCal Residents Pass holders to schedule FastPass in advance (i.e., before the day of the trip). For that, you'll need the pricier season passes. SRP holders will be given the same priority as normal ticket holders.
In terms of where to locate the park, Disney was a big early believer in a analytical approach. They hired SRI to determine the best location for Disneyland back in the 1950s. They came up with a amazing amount of operational and systems research that we use now. The big factors where climate, access to a huge population base, and multiple access to freeways.
When it came to Disney World, the factor where those, plus the ability to buy large amount of land before anyone was aware of it, and could drive up prices with speculation.
Disney has tried a number of different strategies in the past to make parks more accessible - including the idea of building a Disneyland on a boat, that would travel the world, and stop in various ports for months, before packing up and sailing to the next trip.
Most of the demand for Disney growth wise is international, with Brazil probably next to get a park.
In terms of line waits, there are two things at play - one Disney has realized that they have been leaving money at the table. Contrary to this article, the vast majortity of the excess demand is not single day visitors at Disneyland, but rather season pass holders in California. This is why they have jacked up the cost for annual passes a ton. I was listening to a podcast recently that postulated that as much as 45% of the daily visitors to Disneyland might be annual pass holders. Expect the cost to go way up - it’s getting close to double the cost of a Disneyland pass compared to a Disney World pass.
The other thing is that Disney is putting massive capital into the parks, to grow them. They just opened Avatar land in Animal kingdom, but the most exciting are the new STar Wars Land, Toy Story Land, Epcot overhaul, and marvel land in California. Disney will be adding a ton of capacity, but they are trying to raise ticket prices to offset.
P.S. I do understand hobbies ;)
It's a little expensive, but there's always something fun to do. Most of us go to re-ride some of our favorite rides. My dad went to just walk around and get exercise and look at things.
Epcot center also has a ton of live entertainment including live bands and performers. They also have events with foods from around the world, flower or butterfly festivals, and more.
For what it's worth, my impression of Disneyland (California and Tokyo) wasn't nearly as good. They were fun, but they didn't have enough stuff to keep me coming back. But then, I don't live there, so maybe there's more to it. Those parks did have one thing that I wish Florida had: They change some of the rides once in a while to match another theme, such as Nightmare Before Christmas on the Haunted Mansion or "Hyperspace Mountain" (Star Wars) on Space Mountain.
I have to say... You're the only person I've ever heard say they went to Disney once and have no interest in going back.
I was fairly excited to take my kids to Disney as I had never been there myself as a kid for unknown reasons. And while I had good time, once is certainly enough. I'd rather travel and see different places as opposed to going the same place year after year.
Every last one of the rides seemed dated and lame, even if they had been recently renovated. Wait. Scratch that. The Finding Nemo one was okay. And that was back when they were using Fastpass instead of this wristband/app system they apparently have now.
I'll actually be in Orlando again a week from now, and we didn't even consider planning anything Disney. The entertainment value divided by the total daily cost of visiting a park is simply too low now. It isn't just the high ticket prices. They unabashedly overcharge for meals and food, and the nearby lodgings nickel and dime you on everything. And the time cost for everything is ridiculous.
The only reason it is so popular is that Disney cross-promotes everything in its media empire. If you let your kids watch enough Disney Channel on television, they will eventually want to visit a Disney theme park or cruise ship.
I can't argue about the nickel-and-diming, though. It's getting ridiculous.
I will likely take my daughter to a Disney theme park at some point, and will be willing to tolerate the hyper-branding experience for a day, but I will do so clenching my teeth while observing (especially) people pretending Disney Princesses exist in reality.
Different strokes for different folks!
As a engineer Disneyworld is _fascinating_. Every type of engineering is at play, from social engineering to mechanical, IT, operational research etc. Think about the complexity of dealing with 80k people streaming randomly into a park, who all want to be entertained by a combination of rides, characters and shows. in my experience, the average fans wants around 7 rides/experiences a day to feel like it's a good time. Think about the processes and systems you need to support that.
I'm sure the capital costs are crazy for building a new park, but with all the demand I'm still a bit surprised there's no talk of building a Disney park in the middle of the U.S. They appear to operate very independently (the fact WDW has had fastpass+ and magic bands for years and DL is just now announcing a completely different system, Maxpass).
You mentioned demand internationally. Disneyland Paris is the only park outside of the U.S. wholly owned by Disney. Not sure if it was a concession (I could see that for China) or as a risk-sharing thing. I would imagine Disney would want to own 100% of any new park if possible.
Overall this a great idea though, families could fly in to an airport close to the amusement parks, stay for a few days and directly fly out -- you're right in that there is little reason for an amusement park to be in one of the most expensive places in the country.
WDW (fascinating origin story, read it sometime) was built out in the middle of nowhere where people can't see what is going on in the real world. It's the only vacation our family has been on that starts and ends at the airport if you stay on property. In 2008 I think the Dow lost 6% the week we were there and we were gloriously unaware of the fire raging elsewhere. It's all Disney coaches, busses, monorails, and boats to get between your resort and the parks.
So there's a zone of decent climate, where it is far enough north to have just enough freeze days in winter to kill off the worst insects, and far enough south to have a decent selection of perennial landscaping plants.
The northern contour of the zone approximates lines through these cities:
Pueblo, Colorado
Kansas City, Kansas/Missouri
St. Louis, Missouri/Illinois
Louisville, Kentucky/Indiana
Cincinnati, Ohio/Kentucky
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Memphis, Tennessee/Arkansas
Chattanooga, Tennessee/Georgia
A park near the confluence of the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers would have its pick of 5 different jurisdictions, decent climate, and access to nigh-unlimited water and TVA hydro and nuclear power. And you could reasonably buy up a lot of land cheaply without the locals figuring out who is doing it or why, just as it was done in central Florida.
http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/con...
That list includes two state capitals.
Clearly, Disney was less worried about the average of 3 major tropical storms per year, or the cat3 or above hurricane every 4 years or so, than he was about the fact that prior to Disney World, only 2% of visitors to Disney Land came from east of the Mississippi River. He needed cheap land, interstate highways, and weather that was generally pleasant [whenever a disaster was not in progress].
If you want to see how much Disney cares about making water its bitch, punch in "28.396, -81.578" on a map. They'd build a 90-foot levee. They'd build a 200-foot levee, if they could put mouse ears on it and charge $150 per day for admission.
You could do a park somewhere in Texas - the weather is hospitable, but I dont think Disney is interested in the investment to do so right now.
Disney also recently bought out the owners of Disneyland Paris, so they'll probably be putting some investment into that park as well (since it's sorely needed--DLP is considered one of the lesser Disney parks).
Disney’s been bailing out the French corporation that theoretically owns half of DLP for a while. That structure was difficult to work with, but they also didn’t have the revenue that Disneyland Paris has (where they have a similar structure).
South of France or Spain might have been a better pick but of course there's the issue of access
My neighbor's daughter bought the house across street from her, but it was only a couple months before the epic yelling matches in their driveway started.
I think those Agile guys might be on to something when they talk about Separation of Concerns. =)
It's been ~18 months so far and things are still going great. I really don't know what we would have done without the extra help just a phone call away...
Parents retiring to a place more than a short drive away has unintended consequences. Or children moving far away for employment.
In this particular case the gparents moving near WDW made this outcome: post child rearing, only 35 separate visits for the rest of their lifetime (25+ yrs) each visit required plane trip & time off.
It was the gparents choice to move so far away..... And WDW was a wonderful place to share our time together.
But it takes years and years for these things to happen, if they ever happen.
The land purchase was probably 9 years ago, but with these companies, the price of that sort of land is often just a rounding error, so it’s possible they’ve bought land all over the place to keep options open.
This leaves the South and West Coast. Dallas and Oklahoma City are the only realistic places for another park that's easier to get to from the Midwest.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_The_Wiza...
Sounds like WB and Disney both have claims to different aspects. Interesting bit in the Wikipedia article with Disney having a copyright expert on set to help them choose a color of green that wasn't infringing.
Years before Disney America the same people that led the opposition to it blocked Legoland from opening in the eastern half of the same county. Again the area is now all housing developments and shopping centers.
Wow, this guy is really with it. Probably going to get some blowback, but he's right.
"This park will deal with the highs and lows . . . We want to make you feel what it was like to be a slave, and what it was like to escape through the Underground Railroad."
Sometimes you should just shut your mouth when you're ahead.
If Disney can do it without gross cultural insensitivity, I think it could work.
About two thirds of the US population live in coastal states, but that includes gulf coast states which are pretty central on the east west axis. That still leaves a third of the population, with the Chicago metro area being one of the largest and densest catch basins.
Here's the population by time zone, in millions:
Eastern: 150.2 (47.1%)
Central: 92.3 (29.0%)
Mountain: 21.3 (6.7%)
Pacific: 53.0 (16.6%)
“No one” is still the silliest thing I’ve heard for a while, though!
I think there's a big difference here – it's one thing to draw a large crowd for a single ~weeklong event, and another to do it continuously over the course of a year. I imagine the staffing requirements for Augusta National are different the week of the Masters versus the rest of the year (and I know that at least some of the additional staffing is done by volunteers). So the economics are wildly different. A Disneyland in the heart of the US would probably require fairly high staffing levels continuously. So this would require a fairly consistent attendance. Sure, there will be seasonal/holiday variations, but I doubt a theme park could survive the attendance amplitude swing that Augusta National sees between the Masters and the rest of the year.
A copy of Orlando some place in the heartland would give access to more Americans.
But the current hubs might not stay the only hubs. The new Boeing planes are rated for about 500 miles longer range, so that's going to put a lot of airports inland from the coasts as reachable from Europe and Asia, and a lot of coastal cities with smaller, cheaper airplanes.
Burgeoning wait times, and park overcrowding is (in my opinion) largely a result of Annual Pass sales. The AP's come out, clog up the park and make it less hospitable to non-AP guests.
They don't buy (lots of) stuff - AP's often will drop by for half a day and eat off property, but yet will still plop down in a restaurant and take up table space. They also don't purchase much merch either.
They travel inefficiently - AP's often will come to meet up with friends, and like most southern californians, they don't usually carpool - to the point that in 2015, Disney almost stopped selling parking with the AP because of capacity reasons.
So I think clog up is accurate here. AP's in general use the park in very different ways then the people who are vacationing at the park - Disney has made it clear that its primary market is the vacationer - but they cant drop the AP system without alienating a bunch of folks.
Words escape me.
At Disneyland it’s worse, because they don’t have fastpass plus (which allows Disney to schedule a ton of rides, and also distributed traffic through the park). It’s also that it was unexpected. Disney was counting on Avatar land being the big opening weekend thing, and instead Guardian stole it’s thunder a bit.
From everyone I have talked to, the ride is a blast, but I haven’t been on it yet.
Having said that, I was there for the second day of Harry Potter and waited in the 3 hr line to get into the HP area, and then another 1.5 hr line to actually ride the ride. I was there with a friend, and we chatted the whole time and it was a lot of fun. I probably wouldn't do it again for a new ride anywhere, but it was a neat experience once.
My instructors told us to take the day off and they stayed home to protect their homes. I hopped the bus to Disneyland.
There were no lines there that day. I rode Space Mountain about 12 times!
And for good reason IMO. I don't know about you, but if I planned a vacation and then wasn't allowed in the park during that time I'd be pissed, even more if the reason was so that those who did get in could have less wait times and I couldn't even get into the park to experience it.
And it comes with it's own slew of problems. Like you'd need to either have hourly booking, or you'd need to assume when people are going to be going for the day, and you could still just end up with an empty park at some times, and crazy long lines at others.
Combined with the fact that "park hopping" is really common, especially when you don't have a huge amount of days in a vacation there (or don't want to blow a whole day on one of the smaller parks).
I'm not convinced it's as straightforward as you'd think.
Their solution of the "fast pass" system they have in florida is I think the best of both worlds. You can "schedule" time for a ride months out, but they still let as many people as they safely can in the park.
Annual passholder tickets went up as well, but the same logic applies there. If you are dropping 1K per ticket, a $100 isnt’ going to be a deal breaker.
If you do care, you buy the ticket that is cheaper ($600) that is California only, and not valid for admission on busier days.
First, Disney significantly raises annual pass prices to limit the number of AP holders in the park.
Then they implement a monthly payment plan to make the pass more affordable.
Left hand, meet right hand. You two should talk.
BTW: Tokyo Disneyland and Tokyo DisneySea are not owned by Disney. They are owned by The Oriental Land Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oriental_Land_Company)
If you build more lanes where the roads are generally uncongested, you won't see much 'induced demand', because the there wasn't much demand for travel that was waiting for less congestion.
If you build more lanes where the roads are generally congested, you will see the amount of time the roads are congested decrease when construction is done. However, most additional lanes are built in areas where there is strong population growth, leading to increased demand overtime anyway. For example, in southern california there was a project to add another lane to the I-405; when completed, the average duration of heavy congestion (rush hour) was reduced by several hours; but it's reasonable to expect that over time the congestion will increase again, just as it was before construction.
It's reasonable to expect the same to happen for theme parks. There are a lot of capacity constraints preventing people from attending a Disney park, and you see that in the high attendance. It's probably difficult to predict how many additional parks you could build and still have good attendance, but building one at a time seems reasonable; being a bit hard to get in isn't terrible for Disney's brand perception.
I loathe it.
Try and get into the park first thing in the morning. As soon as you get in, bee line for a fast pass to one ride, and wait in line for another. Some rides such as Toy Story are not part of the fast pass system. While waiting in lines that are 1 hr+, have a friend to go across the park and get more fast passes while you wait. Also, the time window for these passes are not super strict. That being said some cast members can be particularly annoyingly strict. Good luck!
Toy Story does now have a fastpass.
Staying at a Disneyland hotel (any of the 3) grants you access to Magic Morning.
* Get to know the fast pass system and use it to full advantage. Later in the day, any of the big attractions you'll likely be riding through fast pass. Fill the rest of the time with food, street shows, and smaller attractions.
* Visit During the right time of year. The LA times article lists the best times.
As an AP holder, I end up going at all times of year. During the busiest times, arriving early, using fast passes, and tempering expectations makes it a fun Disney day. During the non busy times of year, no complaints.
They use mathematical optimization techniques to predict the best order to visit things. Typically cuts Several hours of waiting out. IT’s well worth it.
(Len Testa, I will DM you for my referral check ;-)
From my experience, typically slower periods at Disneyland is September to November (before Thanksgiving) and mid-January to April. Go during the week. The article mentioned Thursday typically has the shortest wait times.
Good luck!
Anaheim only has paper FastPasses, which are the same concept, but a little more difficult to manage since you need to run around the park getting them. MaxPass for $10 extra per person per day is coming soon, however, and will let you book FastPasses via their app, but it's a shame it's an additional cost.
Unless you are talking the magic bands (which give you three rides at assigned times). Those are great, and free, but are very limited, especially with attractions that just opened.
These are from 2013, but wait times at Cedar Point are much worse! http://www.fodors.com/community/united-states/cedar-point-wa...
They didn't trade a faster system for a slower system, they started price descriminating to further maximize their profits. You just happen to be in the group that gets a slower experience.
They raised prices because there was more demand, so they could make more money.