Two Weeks Vacation is only a Recommendation, not a Rule

The two months notice part wasn't real clear in what you wrote; that definitely alters the context of the post.

And I agree 100%: two weeks vacation is just dumb. People have families, kids, friends...that stuff is more important than work; once work gets more important than those things life gets hollow.

I think the no warming comes from this

"Two days later, ticket in hand, I strolled into the office of my department head."

Got a ticket and then sounds like you leave on Friday for three months.

I get that; that's why we define a "vacation" by the amount of time one of my guys is going dark. If you're going dark for two weeks, that's a vacation. If you're going to be scuba diving and only checking emails nightly, that's just reduced production capacity...just let me know so I can plan for it and please don't do it right before a deadline. :)

IMO this issue is indicative of the relationship between employee/employer. The tone of the OP is so "eff you, I'm outta here" that the relationship must already be dysfunctional; there's a lack of trust and respect and that's ultimately the employer's responsibility. Something is wrong with the company's culture.

I don't remember a vacation where I didn't "work" - willingly. I usually get bored and get the itch to write some code. I guess that happens when your work is the same as your hobby.

You know what they say.. "love what you do.."

I mentioned this in another response, but I believe this issue really has more to do with who you hire, how well you pay them, how you treat them, etc. It's more about the execution of philosophy, not the composition of and adherence to policy.

To be real candid we've not run into a situation yet where a developer was going off the grid for a bit over a week at a time. The devs we hire are really really talented and they go into withdrawal if they don't open an IDE for a couple of days. They're compulsive coders...I mean, I pay them to do what they do, but most of their motivation is internal. The common thread is that they all have a passion for development, and that shines through.

We were; in fact we just hired a developer that starts next week that I'm hyper-geeked up to have on board. The dude is so much smarter than I am. It's awesome.

That said, shoot me an email and we can get a dialogue going. I'm not sure when we'll hire again but we only hire those with whom I've established some type of relationship beyond a resume and cover letter. :)

I think this works if you're a one man shop...once you hire employees, though, things change. A lot. You have to keep your business running because your devs have trusted you with their family's financial well-being; you have a responsibility to keep the business healthy.

You don't.

This is one of the first things you'll notice being in business for yourself. It's hard to arrange time off. One of the benefits of working for a company is that there's a team in place to make sure the train stays on the rails while you're gone.

You also don't get sick days.

Automate everything that can possibly be automated, and when one goes on vacation, check email a few times a day. Might even be able to get some work in during the evenings.

Also, the flexible schedule allows for mini vacations whenever you need it, which helps a lot. It's great to be able to blow off work whenever an opportunity to do something great comes up, as long as you're disciplined about getting things done other times.

It's really hard, especially during the first couple years, but my only perspective is as a bootstrapper, I think funded people maybe have more flexibility (or maybe not? I dunno).

My experience is that you just have to force yourself to stop working. It's terribly easy to let your business tak over your life. Me, I just force myself to forget about everything but the bat-phone on Sundays.

Time OFF?!? HAhahahha!

I wish I could say that I drove a hard bargain to get full benefits, but it happens to be company policy. I went in to the meeting prepared to increase my portion of the cost of my healthcare if necessary.

My biggest concerns prior to initiating the negotiations were 1) affecting morale if someone else is forced to compensate for my reduced hours, 2) the fact that I occasionally do freelance mobile development on the side, and 3) possibly being let go as my company is going through a downsizing. So far, it hasn't been an issue, but it's early.

It turns out that my freelance work is a non-issue according to my employment contract and IP agreement. I didn't really reduce my hours to do freelance work. Instead, I was doing freelance work to insure some modest income should I be forced to resign, and I may reduce my efforts there since I can easily live just on the income from my part-time work. My boss and his boss were cool about the freelancing, but they told me to keep it to myself, and I wish that I had been more private about my side interests prior to asking to go part time.

In your case, I would check up on the IP situation. You don't really want to be in a position where there are questions about who owns your side project.

As far as negotiating tips, what worked for me - I don't know that this is great advice necessarily but I had to do it this way because it addressed the worst case scenario in terms of short-term income - was that I was resolved to resign, even though it wasn't really my first choice in improving my situation. However, I have about 1 year's living expenses saved up and I'm making close to $1K a week doing 20 hours of freelance mobile development and turning down projects just about every day. That gave me the confidence to start the conversation by saying, "I am considering resigning." Eventually, I suggested the work schedule that I was willing to consider. I had researched the company HR site to know what options were available to me. I also felt reasonably confident that they want me to stay and that it would be hard to replace me, at least in the short term.

One thing that is bad about bringing up resignation is that it will likely keep you from collecting unemployment if your employer plays hard ball. I never said "I resign," just that I was considering it, but I have been advised since then that it was probably a bad idea from that standpoint. It probably didn't matter in my case because I wouldn't be eligible anyway due to my freelance income.

Also, I have a very friendly relationship with my boss, so that helps a lot. It seemed that he really wanted to help me, and he played up the cost savings angle up the management ladder to help me get what I wanted.

At a previous job, after an arduous interviewing process including programming tests, several interviews, background and credit checks, and finally my references being grilled over the phone, I made it to salary negotiation and I was too tired by then and didn't care if I got the job or not. So I asked for $X (in annual salary) the CEO misunderstood me and thought I wanted $X/hour. I signed the papers and was pulled into the balcony where hands were shaken and well deserved cigarettes were lit by all involved.

I didn't realize what happened until my girlfriend went over the papers (she was worried about the IP papers I might have signed, given my startup ambitions) but when we saw the figures ..

It was $55k in excess of what I thought I was worth. Pants. Shat.

That gave me some serious professional backbone; once you start to make serious money, you tend to respect your career a whole lot more. I was so proud of myself I took up management responsibilities, studied software engineering really well, took on more tasks. Sure, it made me a workaholic, but it drove the point home that what I do is serious business.

Minnesota is polarized - there are a lot of independent developers and a lot of Fortune 500 programming jobs. Not a lot in between.

I've hired a dozen programmers here in my day, and so it is definitely possible to find good developers. But you really have to know the right communities, user groups, etc. to find them. Of course, I expect that isn't MN-specific.

Yeah, it is strange. Looks like a job for an ambitious economy phd student - explain how it's possible that a market exists which is a "market for lemons" on both sides :)

Thanks for the reminder; I've practically abandoned that blog due to lack of time to play with LEDs. I thought I had email addy in my profile, have to check that.

Basically, if you have a technical degree (I think HR drops that requirement if you have 20 years experience) and show up for an interview with a robot or other automated mechanism you built yourself from scratch (yes, I work with a few people, self included, who've done just that), I'll go all out to find a reason to hire you because that tells me you can probably learn whatever we want you to know on the job.

Lacking a robot: OK, I just deleted a bunch of "real" job requirements that we would claim we need. They don't really matter to me or the hiring team.

We want someone who's bright, who's somewhat personable and not afraid to talk or even brag about his/her accomplishments during the interview and who understands OO development and has at least passing familiarity with C++. Those, and at least a BS in a technical field, are the only really "must have" requirements.

You should be able to show during the interview that you can at least attempt to solve problems. We don't ask trick questions like how many gas stations are on top of Mount Fuji, we just want to know if we drop a pile of requirements on your desk, you can design and implement a solid solution to meet them.

You'd think that wouldn't be hard to find...you'd be wrong!

To sort of tie back to the original post, with a vacation culture that is completely different from the US, situations like in the blog post never really happens here. Everyone gets several weeks off every year, so businesses adjust for it. Everyone knows that June-July-August are "slow" months. No manager will ever be surprised by people asking to take several weeks off whenever. If you work at a larger company, there are always routines in place for covering for people during the summer months, and you usually make sure that there's always someone around that can handle things.

If you work in the manufacturing industry, there's nationwide coordination so all of it shuts down at the same time, usually four weeks in July.

It's a completely different culture, and definitely worth knowing if you ever do business with companies in Europe during the summer.

I think it's actually four weeks in June-August, three of which consecutive. Still good though. Not to mention that many parents of small children begin and end the vacation with some parental leave (to which the employer can't say, if two months advance notice is given) so 7-8 weeks is not uncommon.

Shouldn't you be enjoying the summer in Sweden, then, and taking vacation in the winter?

Does the notion of a contractor exist in Sweden? If so, do they also get vacation?

Less hours for same pay is an extremely reasonable compromise, in these times when many companies can't/won't pass out much in the form of direct raises.

Explicitly threatening to quit during any negotiation is the unreasonable part. Frankly, it's an implied threat in any conversation about compensation, just as being fired is an implied threat in any conversation about performance.

But coming out and saying it, is wildly unprofessional and immature; there's just no up-side.

Well less hours and same pay in the form of a raise is perfectly reasonable when you provide a substantial value to the company, though this is obviously not the case with your parent comment.

Another thing is that you only tend to add value to a company after a large amount of time (decade[s]) and even so you may not even be adding value after that amount of time.

If all you were is pissed off then he has good reason to exploit you like this over and over.

And if you don't bother telling your manager ahead of time - you run the very real risk of his ire and wrath...

As the trunk poster said - you can only pull this off if you are really good at what you do, and prepared for the negative consequences if they happen.

That might be a sign that your typical workweek is too stressful. For most jobs I've had, it took zero or one day to wind me down. My most stressful job (as a middle school teacher) took me two days to wind down.

I'm not talking about working at a normal job, I'm talking about working at a startup. At a startup you have a tremendous amount of responsibility because a large portion of the companies success/failure rests on your shoulders. You also have other people who have put a tremendous amount of faith in you and rely heavily on you.

If you would rather take month long vacations to go backpack around exotic locations, go work for a big company. If you do this at a startup, chances are you are putting your company, and your co-workers, future at risk.

If you want to work at a startup, especially as an early employee, there are certain responsibilities that you must live up to. This author, like the founder of the failed YC company, is selfish. Either life gets in the way of a startup or a startup gets in the way of life, but its not often you get both.

Absolutely. Most people leave before they get fired in my experience. When something's not working, you tend to leave. Sometimes for good reason.

Or, preferrably, work at companies who treat they employees like individuals :)

(on the basis that if they get all the good talent more companies will act like that)

The employer-side of that exploitation-maneuver would be your boss telling you: "We do not have anything for you to do the next 6 weeks, starting tomorrow. You will not be paid but if you want, you can come back later."

If that happens at your company, go ahead and take your leave. If it does not happen, you may be overplaying your exploitation a little.

Absolutely, but my point was if you have a relationship with your employer where you feel they are extorting you you should leave and find some place where they aren't.

Why not make it clear when you get hired that you will want 2-3 months vacations every few years?

Unless you have an equity stake, like at a startup. Then you're probably just hurting yourself.

There are plenty of non-exploitative work places. At most places I've worked the organization genuinely cared for employees.

There is such a thing as being a dick to an organization that has treated you well.

Agreed. Its a business arrangement. Money versus time. Nothing else is involved.

But I'm an independent contractor, so my point of view may be different.

Good point. Some people want money, some people want time and freedom (especially once their monetary needs are covered). There are other ways companies can compensate people beyond their salary.

It is neither extortion nor underhanded, nor dishonest if the employee openly and honestly negotiates it before leaving. Unless their contract explicitly has termination penalties if they quit to early (fairly rare in the software world), then they have every right to threaten to leave immediately if they are not given what they want, and this remains honest.

Now, you may have a point with it being disloyal, but what have you done to earn their loyalty? If you or the company has done something unusual to earn their loyalty, then you may have a valid point and reason to feel wrong. But paying them an honest wage for honest labor is not a way to earn any exceptional level of loyalty.

Not to mention, how many people are without jobs? Some people would be grateful to have a job, even with NO vacation.

At the risk of sounding somewhat cavalier, the overall unemployment rate has nothing to do with my situation or my relationship with my employer. The unemployment rate in my particular region for my particular industry matters somewhat, but if we are talking skilled software developers that is relatively low. Even then, the really relevant question is how easily can the company replace me, which includes my specific domain knowledge and my skill level. It sounds like the article was written by someone who could not be easily replaced for people who could not be easily replaced.

How does a request for 6 weeks vacation turn into underhanded, disloyal, and dishonest?

Some people would be grateful to have an icepick in their forehead to end their misery, but I'm not saying you should stab yourself.

>Some people would be grateful to have a job, even with NO vacation.

Are you saying/hinting you'd be willing to exploit people's situation if you were in the companies position?

How much notice would you give them if you had to fire them - you know, for business reasons? 3 months? Two weeks? None?

Underhanded, disloyal, dishonest…