Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf] | Hacker News Reader

Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

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121 pointsDanBC59 comments

Literally 15 minutes ago I went to the neighbor behind my house [who complained in writing to me today] and apologized for letting construction workers work past 7pm in my backyard. I knew working past 7 was wrong, but no one had said anything and the project is behind schedule...so i let it slide. Today i had to go back and acknowledge that I was wrong to let that happen and that it won't happen again.

I first wrote a note, but opted to deliver the message in person as they were home [also handed them the note at the end of it as it had my phone number and email on it should they need me]. At the end of the day, i think I've turned what was potentially the beginning of a bad situation into something that brought us closer together and more likely to communicate effectively in the future.

Edit: One thing some people are saying further down is regarding admissions of guilt and i forgot to touch on that but it's clearly what I did here...

I think we live in a society that is often scared that doing the right thing [often in the form of apologizing] will get us in trouble. Plenty of times this holds true, but i think if we all did it more often it might be for the greater good, plus sometimes getting in trouble teaches us a valuable lesson. Doing the right thing should be your priority, but when you mess up I feel it's very important to correct it or you will often suffer small but longer lasting side-effects [stress, bad relationships, etc].

Similarly to your seemingly effective quick nip in the butt, when it comes to the other end of the spectrum where you're the one who has a problem I've always found that being open, sincere, and forward quickly tends to be the best solution.

Whether it's something as simple as someone humming at their chair in an open office layout or something a bit more complex such as you and your neighbors situation, presenting how feel in a clear and less emotional way always works out better than bottling up your feelings until one party blows up. People, for their part, seem to be genuinely reasonable and understanding when given the opportunity.

It's "nip in the bud"

EDIT: as in, cut off the flower bud before it blooms

Ha! Now I know.

And for some extra context, this is a horticultural practice to improve yield by forcing resources away from flowering and fruiting. This could be to produce fewer larger fruit or to encourage plant growth.

I know the context of the PDF is a little different, but towards making the sentiment more broadly applicable, I'd suggest that an ability to own up to a mistake of any sort is a very useful professional "skill". Lacking that skill, it can be much more difficult to correct a problem before it becomes an issue (You hesitate, because a change implies the pre-change situation was "wrong") Once there's an issue, it also makes the cleanup much harder, more awkward, etc.

If you practice being comfortable saying something like, "I'm sorry, I overlooked X. I'm fixing it now, and will do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again" then your professional and personal life may be just a tad smoother. All of this implies, and requires, a mindset that is self-aware enough to evaluate itself. That can be the difficult part, that requires regular practice and resistance of instincts to go on the defensive and justify something, even if it was "right" at the time, if circumstances now show otherwise.

For me the key work skill is a willingness to answer "I don't know".

People that can't say that when they don't know the answer are inevitably pompous time-wasters.

Similarly "I need help" and "How can I help?" are powerful things.

I still have trouble with "I need help". I can work out what I need to do, but I have trouble doling out work in a way which means that it gets done to the specification I have got in my head, so I am not sure how to accept the offers of help.

I think I need help writing specifications for my fellow developers.

That would be the trick in delegation. Giving others the authority to get things done.

I don't know the specifics of what your dealing with but it might be defining a common starting place like an API contract with some architectural/non-functional requirements on the implementation or more recurring things like coding style guides or other documentation.

I learned that habit from the Professor (UK style) I used to work for whose speciality was non-linear control systems and was clearly rather bright.

He was very quick to say "I don't understand" or "could you explain that in simpler terms" - I particularly remember him being utterly delighted by the Unix "fork" system call.

I am not sure. I used to say "sorry" and "I don't know". People assumed I make more mistakes and know less then collegues who don't speek that way.

I am training myself not to say those things (not there yet, but getting better).

I'm sorry that you are in a situation where your colleagues project their arrogance and insecurities onto you. I have also experienced this myself, and it was disappointing and confusing to me. I think that a person who is willing to own up to their shortcomings is the stronger person, and more likely to turn their weaknesses into strengths as they confront and expose them instead of trying to hide them. In the end, increasing excellence in my work has won my colleagues over, and a more humble attitude has helped me maintain good relationships that are often strained by my naturally blunt nature. Rather than allowing them to turn you into a worse version of yourself, I'd suggest you either persevere despite the unfair stigma, or work somewhere else that has a more mature work environment.

   Saying sorry is:
   always the right thing to do
   not an admission of liability
   acknowledges that something could have gone better
   the first step to learning from what happened and
   preventing it recurring

This is very, very wobbly advice if you're dealing with a difficult client. I have had a number of situations where my natural English politeness has led to my offering apologies for situations that are 50% or less my own fault, and clients have leapt on this and translated it into everything being my fault. I very much steer clear of using the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologise" now, and usually opt for fairly bland passive voice phrases like "I appreciate that there has been some degree of frustration", followed by a summary of what both parties can do to improve matters.

I also just flat-out disagree regarding liability, though I presume this must refer to a specific legal perspective in this particular context.

> I also just flat-out disagree regarding liability, though I presume this must refer to a specific legal perspective in this particular context.

The OP cites the Compensation Act 2006:

> 2 Apologies, offers of treatment or other redress

> An apology, an offer of treatment or other redress, shall not of itself amount to an admission of negligence or breach of statutory duty.

Yep, you usually know your clients enough though to know if they are completely toxic ass hats or someone you can build a sincere partnership with.

Bureaucracy works wonders for ass hats, give them a vague, inconclusive report with worthless action points instead of an apology.

Absolutely. A decent client who sees you as a key partner in the success of whatever they want doing is absolutely worth apologising to - and they will apologise to you too if they get things wrong. A monster of a client will never apologise to you, and you should never apologise to them. And once whatever it is you're trying to do for them is done, walk away (after having done the usual "Hassle of dealing with this client" vs. "How much of the mortgage it will pay off" dance, of course).

It's fitting that the document has been issued by the NHS. In the UK it's used so much that it doesn't mean anything anymore. It's just a way to get away with bad behaviour or incompetence. One fun example is https://www.sorryfortheinconvenience.co.uk/tfl

Note that the above is a UK publication and the laws around apologies are different in other countries. This document I have here (1996, pdf) is a rather good journal article on the subject for US legalities. http://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...

tl;dr apologies are usually a good thing in your personal life and can prevent litigation in legal matters and are rarely admissible as proof of guilt. I am not a lawyer.

On an unrelated point, I was surprised when I saw how many citations there were in the linked document. I guess it's a law thing but it seemed like every sentence had something to back it up, even stuff like the meaning of "sorry" in the first two sentences, which I thought could be assumed.

Very typical of law review articles (academic publications in legal journals). Compare this famous humorous law review article, "The Common Law Origins of the Infield Fly Rule",

http://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...

(As something of a joke, it starts off by giving a citation for the meaning of the word "The".)

1. It says that an apology is not of itself an admission of guilt. But it doesn't say that an apology can't be used as one piece of evidence of negligence/wrong-doing.

2. This document conflates negligent/avoidable mistakes with situations where "there has been an unintended or unexpected event" and "includes recognised complications referred to in the consent process". In the latter cases, "I'm sorry" is an expression of sympathy, not a true apology.

3. These sort of apologies are required by statute. How meaningful can they be?

Is saying "I'm sorry" an admission of guilt somehow? Genuinely interested.

I read somewhere that in Canada they passed a law that saying sorry in case of car accident does not mean you are at fault for that accident.

Edit: found in this same thread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14749389

Similar in UK. Insurers tell you never to say sorry for a car accident.

Opposite in Canada, you "can" say sorry, and it can not be used as admission of guilt or fault.

Yes. It does.

Or it is insincere.

Saying "im sorry" or never saying "im sorry" has expansive meanings and "sides"-

--- "My favorite mug is broken."

"Im sorry."

"Did you break it?"

"No."

"Then why apologize??!!!"

("I feel bad" is a better response)

I was reared in an "im sorry" said often environment. It was used to placate and move past someone's issue. A phrase that was never meant but effective.

I work now with a man that will always say (after hearing someone say im sorry), "Never say you're sorry. Its a sign of weakness." where i say im sorry to make others feel comfortable and to relate to complainers.

A sibling had and will never say she is sorry. It is like a commandment. Thou shall not ever apologize.

I do an im sorry test when i meet someone. Do they ever say that phrase?

There is no real simple answer "does it mean guilt" but my decades of experience say "Yes" more than "no"

This probably comes back to what part of the context is left unsaid. If someone's favorite mug is broken, you are trying to convey something like: "I'm sorry (to hear that)" But an apology obviously has the meaning of : "I'm sorry (for what I did that made this happen)"

Being explicit about it could help, but I agree my default inclination is also to assume it's an apology.

More specifically, in addition to remorse for one's actions, 'sorry' indicates you're grieved over a situation in general. So, if somebody's favorite mug is broken and you say, "I'm sorry" you're indicating the state of their mug grieves you.

(Grieves might be a bit heavy of a word to use, so saddened works too—the concept is the same.)

In the UK a common response on learning of a bereavement or some other major life setback is to say "I'm sorry" or "I'm so sorry."

Obviously this doesn't imply guilt.

If your most recent code breaks the company website, the correct response is probably "I'm on it - ETA of <x> mins/hours."

You could argue that an apology is redundant, although a post-mortem may be useful.

It's a difficult cultural issue, because it depends how avoidable show-stopper problems are.

The law doesn't fully distinguish between negligence caused by personal error; negligence caused by stress, distraction, or overwork; trivial error which may be magnified because of circumstances or other contributory factors; basic incompetence of one individual; basic incompetence of one or more other individuals which ends up being the problem of someone who isn't directly responsible (e.g. a site crashes because of an ancient bug buried in ancient code); and a series of extremely unlikely but unfortunate events.

I think the word's best definition is as an expression of regret rather than repentance; it's probably clearer to most that regret isn't necessarily an admission of wrongdoing, nor even a feeling about one's own actions.

Clinicians seem to think that everyone is out to get them, or at least want to project the image that they're so vulnerable to lawsuits. The truth is, there's no threat to them. Only the most open-and-shut malpractice cases can realistically be litigated, due to the $250k damages cap (in California). And because there's such limited upside for the attorneys, most victims can't even get representation.

But despite all that, as someone who lost a family member due to physicians' mistakes, all we wanted was for the doctors to acknowledge what went wrong and then find a way to learn from it so it doesn't happen again to someone else. Victims understand--doctors are people and people make mistakes. I'm not the type to pursue litigation, but if anything, this code-of-silence/denial/cover-up routine only serves to encourage litigation as a way of making sure the problem is openly discussed.

(This comment is totally serious.)

There is a chart with "Do say" and "Don't say" listening appropriate and inappropriate phrasing examples.

I will ask an extreme question about it then make it a bit less reductionist.

The chart doesn't say whether "I'm sorry I caused your son's death" falls under "Do say" or "Don't say".

The thing is, although the above line exaggerates, if you are being transparent then there are a LOT of statements that reduce to "I (we) caused your son's death", but which are much more technical, i.e. regarding what was done.

In this case it is unclear whether these are to be avoided or can be mentioned? It says "These steps include informing people about the incident" but it is not totally clear whether they mean it.

Malpractice is the third-leading cause of death in the United States[1], so my question isn't an idle one.

The PDF could be far more specific here.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=malpractice+as+cause+of+deat...

The corollary of this is: don't use people's apologies against them. If they are sincere then accept. Don't exploit for political or financial gain or to make it look like you 'won'.

As a Canadian I already know all of this.

Seriously though, I find myself apologizing profusely all of the time in ordinary conversation. Ordinarily I would think that it's a habit I need to curb, but the sorries are all genuine!

In fact, in Ontario apologizing is protected by law as inadmissible as evidence of wrongdoing: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/09a03

Off-topic: I am reminded me of a few comic strips based on the Canadian "sorry".

Soh-ry: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2738

I'm Canadian: http://explosm.net/comics/4272/

Canadian Problems: http://completelyseriouscomics.com/?p=269

The Canadian Front: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcospl...

Sorry

Knowing how to apologize well, being successfully heartfelt, is a perennially too uncommon skill

This is really not relevant to anyone but healthcare professionals in the UK...

Many people need to apologise. Most of those people haven't just killed a relative of yours, or caused you physical harm - they've maybe deleted your data or closed your account or charged you too much.

I'm sorry, but what's the point of this?

In the US, doctors will not tell you if they made a mistake and caused your condition to worsen, or if the mistake caused the death of your loved one.

In the UK, doctors are allowed (and by the looks of this memo, expressly encouraged) to inform the patient of their mistakes and to apologize.

I believe he was being facetious.

In the UK there is a requirement - the duty of candour - to tell people a mistake has been made, and to apologise for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_candour

I posted it here because I've seen a bunch of apologies also posted to HN recently, and most of them were lousy.

Why do people post apologies to HN? Any examples?

I've certainly apologized a few times - usually for writing something that is badly worded, unintentionally inflammatory or simply plain wrong.

I certainly apologised profusely when I wrote something that annoyed dang.... :-)

there have been a few businesses that lost data, or got hacked, or shut down.

That's because of the lawsuit culture in the US, apologizing for a mistake admits wrongdoing and could expose you to millions of dollars in damages.

I had a then-teenage cousin who had a surgical...geez, either a breathing stent or a cerebrospinal shunt, I forget...installed backwards, resulting in minor permanent brain damage before the surgeon realized his mistake.

This apparently involved the surgeon sprinting back into the operating room past my aunt and uncle, yelling "I screwed up your kid, meet me here with a lawyer in three hours!"

The point is that you should apologize if your mistake harms someone. Refusing to own up to your errors is unprofessional. That's hardly limited to medicine.

I had a simple encounter a few months back with some coworkers that has had a lasting impact on me... mostly because I realized I apologize too often.

Drinking wine in a group around a table. Someone stepped around me to reach something in the middle of the table. This person knocked my resting glass and it violently wobbled almost toppling over. My first reaction was saying “sorry” in which my coworker responded with the dirtiest look. Saying sorry resulted in an immediate acceptance of fault. I’ve also seen similar reactions after a motor accident I was involved in. I know this anecdote can’t be applied everywhere but the info here can’t either... Sometimes it’s best just to keep quiet... especially when the other party is on edge.

If I realize someone I know is one of those "never say you're sorry" people, I lose a little bit of respect for them.

I lose a lot of respect for them, it's a symptom of so many (usually deep) flaws.

I disagree. I was in hospital around the time some bad stuff happened. My doctor was busy saying sorry, and neglected his other patiens.

Saying sorry has always been meaningless tokenism to me. We are what we do, and not what we say.

However -

An apology does indicate that the person saying sorry is able to admit to mistakes. This in turn shows an ability to learn, to try new things, and an open mind. At least more so than one who refuses to apologise under any circumstance.

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