Comment by enraged_camel | Hacker News Reader

Comment by enraged_camel | Hacker News Reader

After a two year period of watching my boss interact with people, I can confirm that this method works extremely well.

He is a "natural", in the sense that he can form close bonds with people incredibly quickly. At first I thought he was using some sort of secret strategy, but after a while I noticed that he was simply sharing personal details about himself (which the article refers to as "self-disclosure") without being prompted, which encourages, and in fact compels, the other side to reciprocate.

Here is an example conference call conversation from two weeks ago, in fact, in which we were chatting with a potential client to schedule a meeting. Bob is my boss:

--

Bob: Okay. Let's have an in-person meeting next week. What day works best for you?

Client: How about Thursday at 2?

Bob: Sounds great. You know, I'm glad you didn't say Wednesday because I have to be with my two little girls that day, and I definitely could not miss that. They mean the world to me.

Client: Oh yeah, I understand. In fact I can relate... I have a daughter myself!

--

And then when we actually met in person this past Thursday, the topic of their daughters was a natural conversation point.

In contrast, I tend to be fairly reserved when it comes to sharing personal info. I like to stay on topic and dislike what I perceive as derails. The above conversation for me would have gone like this:

--

Me: Okay. Let's have an in-person meeting next week. What day works best for you?

Client: How about Thursday?

Me: Sounds great. See you on Thursday at 2 PM.

--

Similar, but also very different.

After having read about self-disclosure I started doing this and never looked back. Also I forgot that I had it from reading a psychology experiment.

I've learned that it mostly works. In some cases though people see you as someone who doesn't always say something relevant.

What also works (more specifically) is: you share a certain secret about you, and if that person has a similar secret you get to hear it as well. At one night, I was with a traveler and we were both in a country we both didn't live in. We self-disclosed quite a bit and then agreed to tell each other every juicy detail of our lives without ever seeing each other again. We poured our hearts out to each other and we told each other all kinds of secrets that we told no one else. I learned a lot about life that night :)

Self-disclosure is awesome. You give people the opportunity to relate back. And people, in general, are nice.

Don't want to question the value of your experience but I couldn't help noticing that your example and enraged_camel's examples all take place in the context of (mild) danger and risk. Employer-employee; employee-client; travel abroad.

Could it be that shared adversity is the key to bonding? Personal revealings would then follow gradually as a natural consequence. In this view the best way to make friends would be to go to high-school together, get stuck in an airport for 2 days, watch a horror movie, share a rock-climbing accident, etc. Mostly circumstances one doesn't have much control over, admittedly!

Yeah some of my best friends are the ones who I've focred to go with me to an airport for 2 days. Not sure if they can say the same though

I think there's something to that. Most of my adult friendships with people that started in a professional setting were with people who I worked with on very stressful projects.

Lots of hours together, working very closely, gallows humor, and revealing personal details. There are about five or six people from a particularly stressful project that I talk to on no less than monthly basis, very personally catching up, and we're across 4 states and 5 cities.

There is definitely evidence for shared adversity being helpful for bonding, but I think it's a stretch to somehow say employment is adversity.

By that logic, pretty much every interaction we have is through shared adversity.

(It's true that I've had some amount of shared adversity with all my close friends though.)

The state of being can be considered shared adversity.

Good luck doing that in Germany without being seeing as a weird egomaniac

What a rude way to make a point. Maybe you meant something like "Interestingly, the same approach would be perceived differently in Germany I think, and would perhaps come off as egotistical"

Maybe you would be better served by a less confrontational way of making your own point, perhaps something like "I think your otherwise valid point would be made more effectively if it were couched in less emotionally abrasive language, such as 'I think the same approach would be perceived differently in Germany, perhaps coming off as egotistical.'"

> What a rude way to make a point.

Let's all just savor that one.

Yeah I'm not German (except by ancestry) and I get really uncomfortable when conversations go like that. Why is this guy trying to convince me he's such a great dad? What's his angle with that? I would definitely not take something like that as a sincere "personal disclosure" from someone I'd never met. I'd take it as more like a greasy salesman tactic.

I guess if you're a cynical person you will look for an "angle" in everything people say or do. Living life like that must be miserable.

I agree with you.

Or it's extremely soothing because you're never surprised by anyone's selfish intentions...

I don't see how second-guessing everyone's motivations and looking for hidden motives in every single thing they say or do can be "soothing", but to each his own.

It's the Scout's motto applied to interpersonal relationships. It can be soothing in the same way that keeping an emergency kit can be soothing.

As a cynic, yeah it sucks, but a lot of time it develops as a defense mechanism and feels like it can be defeated with a lot of soul-searching, self-improvement, and just trying.

This kind of "cultivated extroversion" is a very american quality.

I'm extroverted in this way, but it is very much who I am. I suppose I am just very American.

I don't know if you're familiar with the title (it's a classic on the subject), but my understanding is that, in China, Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is sold under the title: "The Weaknesses of Human Nature."

One more anecdote about that book. In his Playboy interview, Marlon Brando referred to it as "a book on hustling."

I bring this up because for some crazy reason, in the United States, this kind of "interpersonal communications" stuff is promoted as a great thing. And yet, like you say, it boils down to a person having an angle. I read that book when I was a freshman in college and thought it was fantastic. A little while later though I read the Marlon Brando interview, and after my initial shock I realized that he was basically right.

For every individual who develops a "genuine interest in other people" (as the book implores its readers to do), there have to be five or ten others who read that book and think only how it will help them make a buck.

At least the Chinese are unsentimental about it.

However Carnegie doesn't advocate self-disclosure. Quite the opposite - he advises shutting up about yourself (and your organization, product, etc.) and listening to the other person.

That's the way I understood his writings as well. The older I get the more I disagree on that. It is just as important to share and position one's own identity and actively communicate it.

Most people are nowhere near interesting enough to develop a genuine interest in.

I would agree entirely because I recognized this sometime in my early 20s and never looked back. Now I have a very, very select handful of friends that are all incredible people, but can't get along easily with 4 out of 5 people... I think mostly because I'm suspicious of why they're being personable and talking to me right now. Hell, I think Dale Carnagie made me so jaded I can't function in society, but that's mostly on me.

Did not believe this until http://www.renxingruodian.com/

In most East Asian cultures, there's no need for this type of small talk if you can find a personal connection with them.

For example, if you are a friend of a friend of a friend, then you're "in."

Since most East Asians will refer to their cousins as brothers or sisters directly, they also consider friends of friend's to be their direct friend.

Of course if you're a stranger, then you're a complete stranger. Whereas in American culture, we are much more polite to strangers.

Do you have a link or other pointer to that Brando interview. Couldn't find it.

Because it's too verbose. Better left as "Bob: Sounds great. Glad you didn't say Wednesday because I'm with my daughters that day."

Seems more incidental and less tactical. Leave it to the listener to comprehend that Bob has a regular day caring for children. It's also enough for the listener to share that they also have kids, etc.

Have you ever thought that maybe you may be the one with the personality problem? Why would anyone assume the worst of someone else trying to make a good impression on them?

I just try to be as much of myself as I can. No use trying to please people looking to find offense. It's exhausting worrying all of the time about what other people think. It's easier for me to just be myself and make no apologies for it. If they like me great. If they don't, that is fine too. Can't please everyone and don't have the time to focus on pleasing everyone.

Additionally, I am perfectly happy if someone thinks I'm important enough to them that they need to sell themselves to me or would even want to put in the effort to build a personal relationship with me.

FWIW there's a saying that goes: "Never trust someone who is too nice to you"

In fact, there's at least one study that has shown that "those who are highly nice to their peers are more likely to stab them in the back than their less polite counterparts"

ymmv and all that, but there's a fine line between being friendly and coming off as a slimy salesman. Many (most?) people's defenses go waaaay up if you cross that line.

I know people who cultivate the self-disclosure thing and it always comes off as kind of awkward and weird. A little bit forced, you know? Like, this feels very calculated, why are you doing this.

[1] http://vene.ro/betrayal/niculae15betrayal.pdf

It works really well in Germany as well, if you do it right. Also Germans are human, after all.

Would love to know an example of an inoffensive way to do this in Germany. That's one culture gap I have trouble crossing.

It's pretty hard and depend on the context a lot. I'm not a native, but I'm European. I still have a lot to learn.

> Also Germans are human, after all.

Don't tell them that, though. You might offend them by insinuating they are feeble and inefficient.

LOL

Bob's statement seems troubling if you take it as meaningful rather than sales patter. There's an inherent conflict between the implications in "What day works best for you?" and "I definitely could not miss that. They meant the world to me."

From the client's perspective, if he reflects on that conversation at all, the question naturally arises: "What if I had said Wednesday?" Would Bob have skipped spending time with his girls, meaning that his actual statement was a lie? Would Bob have demurred and suggested another day, because the implicit offer of any day next week was false? What other things will Bob try to slide past the client? The chance for this sales process to be collaborative and mutually beneficial seems to have been weakened, given that the client has evidence that Bob will say whatever he has to say to make the sale...

If it's not obvious, I am not in sales. :/

I have to say, it only seems troubling because you're reading an offer that isn't actually there.

Your boss almost certainly learned that trick from something like Dale Carnegie/Carnegey and practiced it.

Oversharing with strangers (bragging about loving your children?!) is a classic manipulative tactic.

Is it bad to be manipulative if it results in closer bonds and thus a richer life?

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