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People who live in the real world understand that universities sell credentials, not knowledge.

A good number of universities (especially if you study math, science, or engineering) sell much more than credentials. They sell you a lot of knowledge. I don't understand how you can seriously make that statement. I learned an unbelievable amount of stuff in my four years in college, and I'm sure many other studious students did also.

If universities only sold knowledge, public libraries would be out of business. Ideally, a diploma would be a rough estimate of one's knowledge. Theoretically, a 4.0 student knows more than a 3.0 student... theoretically! Most people do not care about knowledge, they care about a piece of paper that allows them to work, make money, support their families, and finance their vices.

Many of my former EE classmates ended up going into business, consulting, banking... and I am sure it wasn't their expertise on analog VLSI or DSP that landed them the positions, it was a piece of paper with a lot of good grades that, essentially, said: "I can be an obedient worker, I will put in the long hours without questioning the status quo, and I react to carrots & sticks".

If you actually care about knowledge, you can learn a tremendous lot in 4 years, but don't assume that most people are like you, because they aren't. Except if you go to Caltech or MIT, of course, but the girls are ugly and the parties suck at such schools...

As a Ph.D. student, I can tell you that the faculty I work around are very serious about teaching. Universities are sincerely in the business of education before anything else. That is what they sell.

While some students may be more interested in getting the diploma, that doesn't reflect on the motivation of the institution.

Actually, the parties are pretty freaking amazing at MIT. Just sayin'

Not sure about science or engineering, but surely much advanced math knowledge can come from studying books at home, or even free off the web. Maybe you need to pay for Matlab.

I'll be applying for college this year. So, I am a would be undergrad and I think you are right in some ways but wrong in others.

You are right to say that;

>>>An undergraduate degree serves many purposes. For one, it indoctrinates you, which sounds evil, but is a necessary evil. Second, it allows you to find out what you like and what you don't. Third, by doing what you like and meeting like-minded people, you end up realizing who you are, not by introspection (fuck that new age BS), but through ?action. Fourth, it allows you to network with people from all walks of life and the most various fields. Fifth, it provides the skills necessary to accomplish something. You can stay 4 years at home studying by yourself, but you'll go crazy before you accomplish anything. Being in a structured environment for 4 years is a much gentler way of building a skill set that actually matters...<<<

Yet, in the longer run why are you doing that? It is corny to say that there is more to life than the pursuit of social prestige/money/luxury, but it's quite true.

I think of it this way; when I die I want to die knowing that I have lived life to its fullest potential, and for me that involves creating beautiful things. I might not be a special and unique snowflake, but my integrity is precious to me. If I rush down that path I have no doubt that I will lose myself, and what worth is a life like that?

For some people that path matches their core identity, but for me it simply doesn't. I don't know why, but I am just nuts about stuff like that.

You see, for me the beauty I see around me and the overwhelming beauty of the things I create is reality. It might starve me to death. Maybe not. I accept the risk as the price I shall pay for my freedom to create.

Oh and Sociology, Psychology, and women studies do matter, but the way they are currently taught is nothing but intellectual fraud.

>I am a would be undergrad

>Sociology, Psychology, and women studies do matter, but the way they are currently taught is nothing but intellectual fraud.

At some places but not in general. If you had started reading when you were two you wouldn't be able to categorically make this statement. Chill out on proclamations about things that you couldn't possibly know.

>>>At some places but not in general. If you had started reading when you were two you wouldn't be able to categorically make this statement. Chill out on proclamations about things that you couldn't possibly know.<<<

I am sorry if it came out as if I was making a categorical statement. It is quite true that I might not have read up on those subjects as much as you have, from an academic point of view anyway.

What I was trying to imply was that even though earlier a few years ago I used to snort at such things, but now I have some rather unique life experience that has changed my view point. I've come to realize that people aren't really rational beings at the end and it is quite important to study what composes their identity in order to make sure that you don't burn up bridges.

Think about it this way. We live in an interconnected world where our ideas are not judged my majority of the population on the basis of pure intellectual merit. The idea that all human beings are born equal is met with acclaim around the world as long as it supports people's bottom lines. The very next second they tear it apart and turn into oppressors. Thomas Jefferson put it quite beautifully;

What a stupendous, what an incomprehensible machine is man! Who can endure toil, famine, stripes, imprisonment and death itself in vindication of his own liberty, and the next moment . . . inflict on his fellow men a bondage, one hour of which is fraught with more misery than ages of that which he rose in rebellion to oppose.

I have experienced that first hand in my life, and now I understand the value of understanding how people behave and why they behave the way they do so. The entire way that field now works in some places is quite like intellectual fraud. I know this through a few interesting experiences with a few psychologists.

So sorry about that.

edit: Those experiences were supplemented by stuff I downloaded from iTunes U.

A degree is simply a certificate of minimal competency. There's other ways to demonstrate competency than spending $100k on a degree.

I'm speaking from experience. I quit college during my sophomore year, got multiple job offers, and took a high-paying job writing compilers. How'd I do it? Entirely because I had a portfolio of substantial projects under my belt.

I know a few people who did very well despite the fact that they were college drop-outs. But what may work for programmers does not work for other people. For starters, writing code is a kind of work in which one's productivity and competence can be easily measured. If you have a lot of projects under your belt, you are essentially demonstrating that you can do stuff, and that is worth more than a diploma itself.

The dangerous thought is assuming that what works for programmers can work for other people. If you want to be a lawyer or a medical doctor, what projects can you have under your belt that demonstrate "can-do"? None?! Promoting the idea that an undergraduate degree is not valuable is an extremely irresponsible thing to do. I know that HN is a hacker community full of can-do over-achievers, but the rest of the world isn't like that... and perhaps it shouldn't be like that.