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Comment by mplewis | Hacker News Reader

People wanted LPTHW removed from beginner programming resource lists because Zed actively spreads misinformation about Python 3.

He writes condescending articles that confuse and mislead newcomers to the language. From his redaction:

> In the previous version I trolled people by pointing out that, if what the Python project says is true and it would have been "impossible" to support Python 2, then they broke it and Python 3 is not turing complete. Obviously Python 3 is turing complete, but Python project members frequently claim something this basic is "impossible" soooooooooooo alright. I even had a note after the gag saying it was a gag, but everyone is too stupid to read that note even when they do elaborate responses to my writing.

Check out the past HN discussion on his article, "The Case Against Python 3": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13019819

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Reading the article, I was a bit disappointed that people were trying to pull the book, but reading your comment I remembered how much I had to argue for Python 3 with a friend who was just starting to learn programming and was reading LPTHW because I had suggested it after hearing it is a good book.

The book apparently said that Python 3 sucks, that people shouldn't learn it, and that "if someone tells you to use Python 3, tell them you'll use it when all their code is in Python 3", which is just absurd. It was very harmful, because Python 3 is definitely where the community is, and 2's days are numbered.

That part may have been true back when it was written, but it's definitely not true today, and all it does is fan the flames of discord.

Please everyone put down their fists and let the war finish.

It's all good. We all agree to program with Python 3 and educate beginners on Python 3.

Just forget the past and move on - Zed is on the Python 3 boat now and that's all that matters.

Indeed it makes a great deal of sense to not just end the conflict but go the other way - the Python community should simply ignore the past and do everything it can to welcome and include and bring Zed into the Python 3 community, to the extent that he wants that.

100% agree with this in general and specifically. People tend to get too hung up on issues that are over. Zed has moved on and so should everyone else.

Writing an article that very charitably wildly misrepresents events while leveling accusations at the PSF is not moving on.

I've recommended LPTHW to several new programmers, including one who I think bought the videos and really liked it.

Nonetheless, his strange dislike for python3 and continuing this flame war is not helping anyone, least of all Zed.

One would be wise to remember Zed's melodramatic exit from the Rails community. Once is surprising, twice is a pattern; reading the bitching about the PSF in this piece, I suddenly remembered the nearly identical bitching (including the le Carré style yarns of intrigue and "trusted associates" with chat logs) about certain folks in the Rails community. Read between the lines, and you almost identify a complete unwillingness to accept personal blame for anything: in "Rails is a Ghetto"[0], he claimed Rails and Mongrel ended his career and made him homeless -- which is odd, given the astronomical growth of Rails. In this essay, he claims the PSF is actively trying to suppress him for Reasons. So he responds to that by charging money. Come on. Think about that for two seconds.

I'm amazed that people still don't read Zed Shaw objectively in 2017. Zed is not a friend of any community except his own, including appeals to violence, and he has repeatedly shown that. I think it's extremely important to keep in mind the person being dealt with here and his history, because he absolutely does create toxic drama within communities (including in this thread, right now).

[0]: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ruby/rails/is-a-ghetto

Replying to a comment that says to leave the past to the past by pointing out a time in the past someone did a thing.

Maybe Zed burns himself over Python3. Maybe not. It doesn't really matter because he's gonna keep doing what he does, both good and bad. He's as human as the rest of us.

If there is a pattern here, I think it's definitely useful to describe it. The goal is not to fan the flames of this particular controversy, but to detect and neutralise this kind destructive behaviour when it occurs in the future (whether it's Zed doing it or someone else).

Yeah, I can see the validity in that. This industry is ripe for "loud" personalities with a contentious point of view. Zed is just an extreme example with that. I have a soft spot for him because I started with LPTHW, and I dont really care about the Python community either way.

If that was your introduction to Zed, I can certainly understand your perspective. Just know that these are deep, deep waters with a lot of unnecessary grief across more than a decade, and a lot of different perspectives who will disagree with you based on additional experience.

> Maybe Zed burns himself over Python3. Maybe not.

Definitely not. https://zedshaw.com/2016/11/24/the-end-of-coder-influence/

Do these fires start on Reddit or Hacker News or Twitter or something? They start with Zed Shaw.

And even this one, when Zed Shaw is talking peace and bridge building, he still echoes the position that Python core developers are of low character. His retelling of history is ungenerous. How do you extend an olive branch like that?

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