Someone with more experience may be more able to go it alone obviously, but my realtor was invaluable.
OK, but why is that? And how many of those "random quagmires" are coming from realtors?
The real estate industry reminds me of the tax preparation industry or car sales in the USA. My opinion is they are all (by design) intentionally annoying, cumbersome, overly complex, overly expensive, and excessively time consuming, seemingly for no reason other than to protect vested interests. These areas are ripe for dramatic disruption.
I have to say that the most insightful article I have ever read about realtors came from the controversial Freakonomics. It clearly outlined the separation of concerns and interests and made it clear to me that if a real estate deal is to work well, the only person responsible is me and me alone.
Wow, this is great advice and something I would never think of doing.
That's why you pay for real estate lawyer to go with you to closing. That's the only person qualified to help you. It is the only person who represents you if you pay them.
I really have no idea what tens of thousands of dollars extra would have bought me. I don't need someone to hold my hand and look at cars with me either.
Sounds like you don't live in a very competitive market. Here in the Bay Area, you don't even talk to the owner of the house, as they will have a seller's agent. Generally if a house is desirable, there will be anywhere from 5 to 20 offers on a house. The only way to get your foot in the door is to have your buyer's agent go to bat for you. Ideally they will have a prior relationship with the seller's agent, and have insight as to what kind of offer to make to make you competitive with other offers. I can't imagine buying a house around here without having the expertise that an agent can offer.
> I really have no idea what tens of thousands of dollars extra would have bought me.
As a buyer, you are not paying anything extra. The commission comes out of the seller's fees.
> I don't need someone to hold my hand and look at cars with me either.
Buying a house is an order of magnitude more complex and expensive than buying a car. Not really a fair comparison.
For example, the buyer and seller will split commission but in some cases one side can collect all of it.
Also the realtor had contacts of contractors and inspectors that she trusted so that the inspection and repair stages all went way more smoothly than if I was calling random contractors for quotes.
Again this doesnt apply depending on the market and price range that you are in.
That said, if a buyer and seller agree on a sale independently of any realtor here, we can go to a local realtor and they'll happily facilitate the sale for a flat fee of around $1000. I've done that once, and had a number of friends who also did so. Most of the realtors recognize that the bulk of their commission comes from the listing and marketing process, and the paperwork is just something they know how to do correctly. $1000 is a fair price for knowing that's all being done correctly and fairly.
A lot of the apparent value of realtors disappears when you do the process yourself. source: have FSBO bought, and FSBO sold, and redfin bought, and worked for Coldwell Banker.
Getting on the MLS is cheap/easy now with discount MLS listings--I wouldn't do fsbo without it, even though you usually pay buyer's agents.
You might lose out on a profitable bidding war, or the one customer who might buy the house coming through by doing that, but you might get an extra 2.5% if it works out.
Lawyer prices will obviously be different in different parts of the country, (so maybe a lot cheaper where you are) but I knew someone who arranged a transaction without a realtor and paid a lawyer a lot more than $1,000 to put together all the necessary documents. One thousand seems like a good deal.
>...which you generally need anyway when buying/selling a house.
You've found it necessary to always consult a lawyer when buying/selling even though realtors were involved? Why? What value did they add?
When you are signing your 20th piece of paper, you realize you needed the lawyer. One dirty secret of realtors is that all this work is handled by lawyers, and the impossible-looking parts of a real estate transaction are handled by lawyers who understand it and have it down to a fixed-price cookie-cutter process for their locality. They did "consult" with me a bit and gave some "free" advice, but I just paid the fix price for doc generation mainly.
When I say "you need a lawyer anyway", even if you used a realtor, a lawyer drew up the docs for closing, and you hired the lawyer who put together the closing docs, although you may not realize it. You are paying the lawyer directly as a line item in your closing costs, so they are technically "your lawyer." Most people think the realtor had something net-positive to do with the magic house-transfering documents, but, not really.
This may vary by state/locale.
Yea might be different where I am. Like any signed document, I am sure a lawyer somewhere created the templates for the selling agreement, the purchase agreement, the loan documents and closing documents etc but I don't recall seeing any line item for a lawyer's time on any document nor did I ever talk to a lawyer. (Thank goodness for this as a real estate lawyer I know charges about 400 an hour. Fortunately there is nothing unusual about most loans/purchases/closings and lawyers don't typically have to get involved in each transaction - around here loan processors, escrow officers, etc actually do the work and they are much less expensive than a lawyer would be.)
Title company? Blah, blah. Still goes through lawyer! I'm paying for this at the end.
SRSLY! I hate to be a dick but.... come on...
cooperate lawyer? Who cares?
The best part is that that same $3,200 will transfer a house that costs a lot more. The more expensive the house, the more you should want to use a lawyer over a realtor.
Yes, most brokers use standard forms, there isn't much actual expense there for them - which is a good thing because a real estate attorney I know bills at more than $400 per hour.
A good realtor does a LOT more than just fill out the contracts for you to sign. The realtor will spend lots of time scheduling inspections, helping find contractors, being at the property to watch contractors, scheduling the photographer, putting the ad on MLS, running open houses, answering questions from buyers, negotiating with buyers, working with the title company, arranging to hand the keys off to the buyer, etc, etc. You are paying for their experience to know what needs to be done and for the time it takes to do all those tasks that I mentioned (and others). The standard commission costs are high, but there are brokers like Redfin who are less expensive.
I don't understand the contractors statement, a contractor is not a usual part of a real estate transaction, at least in my experience?
Once again, scheduling photographs is a simple phone call to a photographer.
Putting an ad on the MLS can be done yourself for a small fee - https://fsbo.com/flat-fee-mls
Buyer's questions can be better answered yourself, most sellers agents are unable to answer any questions and they'll have to relay most questions to you anyways, once again, my experience.
Open houses are more about generating leads for the agent then they are about showing your house.
Negotiating with buyers can be done yourself easily.
Working with the title company isn't something real estate agents do, not around here anyways. My lawyer handled all the title stuff. Plus what sort of "work" does an agent need to do with the title company?
Handing off the keys? Seriously? That is done at closing and shouldn't cost $5,000+.
Yes obviously you can do that. But you have to take the time to research the different companies a little to find a good one and you have to be there while the inspection is done.
>...I don't understand the contractors statement, a contractor is not a usual part of a real estate transaction, at least in my experience?
In selling, often there are either things that come up on inspection that need to be fixed or improvements that are done to make the property sell better - new paint, new carpeting, etc. Obviously a seller can do this, but it takes time to get bids and to be at the house to let them in, etc.
>...Putting an ad on the MLS can be done yourself for a small fee - https://fsbo.com/flat-fee-mls
Yes, obviously this can be done, and yes you can also take the time to look at a number of listings and write the ad copy if you choose.
>...Buyer's questions can be better answered yourself, most sellers agents are unable to answer any questions and they'll have to relay most questions to you anyways, once again, my experience.
A good agent can save you time here.
>...Open houses are more about generating leads for the agent then they are about showing your house.
One way or the other, you need someone there during an open house. Either you have to be there or you need to pay someone to be there.
>...Negotiating with buyers can be done yourself easily.
Obviously a seller can negotiate themselves and maybe they are as good at negotiating and know as much about the local market as people who do this everyday and maybe they know the agents to avoid. Though maybe it isn't that uncommon that the seller hasn't sold many properties and is better off having someone else help them.
>...Working with the title company isn't something real estate agents do, not around here anyways. My lawyer handled all the title stuff. Plus what sort of "work" does an agent need to do with the title company?
Different situations in different parts of the country I guess.
>...Handing off the keys? Seriously?
In this part of the country, it is done later - agent meets the person at the house. Again, no reason you couldn't do it, but it is time out of your day.
>...That is done at closing and shouldn't cost $5,000+.
Not sure where the number comes from - there is no need to put words in my mouth. Simply listing some of the the things the agent did when my place was sold. If I had to take time off of work to try and handle all these details, it would have cost me a lot more than the commission the agent got.
You should ALWAYS be there when inspection is done. Always. You're paying for it after all. Research? Yes, you should regardless. I couldn't imagine not being there and/or not researching. Real estate agents are useless in this step. How does this have to do with an agent other than "can use the phone?"
Anything about the contractor, lol, yeah, doesn't happen in real life...
>it takes time to get bids and to be at the house to let them in, etc.
Nothing about a real estate transaction has anything to do with this.
> you can also take the time to look at a number of listings and write the ad copy if you choose
???? !!! ????? Wat!? LOL
How old are you!?!
>A good agent can save you time here.
LOL!!!! Yeah, this doesn't happen. Have you ever talked to a sellers agent??? LOL!!! Asking a basic question of a sellers agent = idk. I would laugh if it wasn't sad... Actually, I laugh anyways. If it isn't on the MLS, they don't have a clue.
>One way or the other, you need someone there during an open house. Either you have to be there or you need to pay someone to be there.
PROTIP - Your agent doesn't schedule an open house for you, she schedules an open house for her. Open houses are a lead generator, nothing more.
>agent meets the person at the house.
Wat!? At closing the keys are hand over. There isn't any other way. You're there anyways. Give me a break that agents try to justify their cost that ways??!!
$5,000+ comes from 3% of 200,000, which is $6,000.
Come on!! Give me a break!! I don't even hate agents but, for Christ sake, try harder!!
What you mean to say is that you can't imagine that things could be done differently than how it was done where you are located. That pretty much sums up every comment you made here...
I'm a big DIYer and will go to great length to research and do things on my own. My Realtor (Redfin agent) payed for himself and then some during the home buying process. Your paying for their experience and knowledge.
My agent making statements like "I had our lawyer review our signed purchase agreement and because of X,Y,Z we are still ok" helped me understand why I'm paying a big company a lot of money to help me out.
I thought my RE agent wasn't really worth what I knew I would be paying him until we actually went to make an offer. Their knowledge of our circumstance and the local market let us put together an offer that despite not being the highest offer, nor the most favorable closing (I used a VA loan which takes on average 50% longer to close), we still were able to come out on top. My agent helped us get an inspection on the property the day we saw it so that we could wave inspection contingency, knew that we needed to put up more than the standard earnest money to account for our weak closing position, and they were able to accurately predict what the house would appraise for so that we could ensure that we didn't overbid and waive the under appraisal contingency.
High risk, high reward.
Putting a house on Zillow takes, what, 15 minutes?
Perhaps the exception is very high end real estate, but from what I've seen most of the high end realtors are just really good at networking and schmoozing.
The amount of effort is variable and unknown upfront (high risk, high reward).
Would you be willing to pay an hourly rate or per service rendered UPFRONT fee? I'm sure there are some brokers that offer such things. Most people don't want to part ways with their money before they know they actually sold their home (another nice thing about not having to pay until closing... the seller only pays if and at closing!)
How much do knowledgeable and experienced consultants make per hour?