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Comment by sotojuan | Hacker News Reader

There's an interesting dichotomy on the "women in tech" question between "SV tech" and non-SV tech.

I briefly worked at a tech company making oil industry software in .NET in a Houston suburb. Not trendy, cubicles, but they paid fine (and unlike my current job the office was quiet). I quickly noticed that half of my coworkers were not only women, but a lot were people of color and older (I actually think I was the only person under 25 there). Many were managers too. The idea of inclusivity and outreach was never brought up.

I think the difference is that these companies are, for lack of a better word, more professional. Startups and SV tech companies seem to focus a lot on culture, people, outings, coworkers being friends, etc. The company I worked on just required you to not be unpleasant and do your work.

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Funny, same thing in my office. It's a small, quiet, well-established professional services firm. We focus solely on serving our clients' needs and delivering solutions.

The senior consultant on my team is female. No one makes a thing out of it. It's just universally understood she's an expert in her field and is perfectly competent.

The organization does have occasional minor recognition awards and we occasionally have company-wide meetings to go over quarterly highlights, etc. She receives an appropriate amount of recognition, as does anyone who deserves it.

I can't think of a quicker way to make her feel uncomfortable than to call attention to her gender. We all understand gender doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to ability to deliver. These gender-exclusive things seem so... patronizing, and insulting.

I think you make an excellent point here. The standards of professionalism have shifted to accommodate the "startup culture" ethos which tends to favor a "fun and productive" office environment instead of the traditional "professional and productive" office environment. This is the result of individuals from younger generations building companies with an idealistic vision of what a company can be. They imagine they want to come into a workplace where everyone is friends and everyone is comfortable joking around and we're all just here to have fun and make money, nobody ever takes it too far and there's really no need for HR because we're all friends here... but of course, the reality is often quite different from what is imagined and you end up in a situation where people start brushing inappropriate behavior under the rug because it causes cognitive dissonance for those who are champions of the "fun" culture.

Where "fun" is defined by people who got funding. http://fortune.com/2017/03/13/female-founders-venture-capita...

Absolutely. People are rarely willing to talk about class in these discussions, but the reality is that not only have we created an industry with a gender imbalance, we've created an industry with a culture that prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) over everything else. Thus you have 'casual' workplaces with games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc in which some people feel comfortable and others feel thoroughly excluded from.

My experience is exactly the opposite - "professional" workplaces are all about middle/upper-class values of dress/speech/behaviour and only comfortable for those with a middle/upper-class cultural/educational background, while the SV-casual workplace is a lot more welcoming for those of us from working/lower-middle class.

There are bad professional places and good professional places - law and finance and rife with the things you describe. However, my "enterprise .NET software" experience was not bad. I just wore a button up, pants, and leather shoes and no one cared about my class background.

If anything, SV tech is commonly full of (and targets as consumers) out-of-touch-with-working-class urban upper middle class people.

I've found the opposite to be true. Perhaps you have assimilated more effectively than I.

we've created an industry with a culture that prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) over everything else. Thus you have 'casual' workplaces with games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc in which some people feel comfortable and others feel thoroughly excluded from.

I disagree. Speaking as someone in that group, I would argue that those things are most valued by freshly minted graduates who've been in the industry for 5 years or less, with few if any commitments outside of work.

i.e., the folks the tech industry exploits by convincing them to work 60-80 hours a week until they burn out. Heck, Google et al even refer to their facilities as "campuses" to appeal to that demographic.

That said, I agree, Silicon Valley has created a culture in that region that values one thing: male youth.

It's why sexual and age discrimination are such a problem in the industry in general, and in that region in particular. It even gave birth to the concept of the "brogrammer", which is the ultimate expression of this ideal.

> prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men)

> games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc

Do only men like those things?

I though beer/alcohol was western thing. Games consoles a dev/techy/nerd thing.

You also cherry picked a bit - these places might also have table football, is that a gendered activity too?

These things might be considered "young", "trendy" incentives, but saying they represent "male values" is something in need of more explanation.

I work at an old tech company in the southeast and would echo this experience as well.

Yep. I know a lot of women in oil and gas and in engineering roles they tend to do just fine--though the closer you get to the fields the more of a boy's club it becomes (because redneck wildcatters).

One of the things "SV Tech" broke first in their rush to move fast and break stuff was what was traditionally known as "professionalism".

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