Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France
visa.lafrenchtech.com
visa.lafrenchtech.com
You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy".
That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.
* I got my residence permit on 3rd day of arriving to country
* I opened bank account on 4th day
* I've opened my insurance by just going online and not talking to people at all
Dutch system is performing very well on bringing tech talent. There's this "Expat Center" that handles whole stuff. In addition to that our company (Booking.com) makes your move even smoother by assisting your relocation and by providing you temporary stay until you find your dreamy apartment.
Please be welcomed at Booking.com in Amsterdam headquarters!
* software developer: http://grnh.se/0fotp8
* front-end developer: http://grnh.se/xl658q
* product owner (e-commerce): http://grnh.se/6gfqds
* ux designer: http://grnh.se/1qhylg
Contact me via email in my profile if you are interested!
Visa and permit? Easy. Just go to the office, present the documents and everything comes in post two weeks later.
Register with social welfare? great. Just go there and they set you up. You get a card and setup the account online. Everything else take care of by the employer and revenue departments.
Driving license? Take the written test and 300 euros for the lessons. If you pass, you can drive (with a driver with full license). Take the test 6 months later for full license.
Yes, here and there you do meet someone who tries to give you a hard time. but all in all, a very positive experience.
And we haven't even mentioned income tax. As a US citizen you still have tax liability for income you make in France, meaning you still pay the US a decent amount of taxes you make in France. The US is one of the only countries that does this. So you'll need to hire an accountant familiar with this to do your US taxes, and you still have to pay your French taxes.
And forming a business? Better find someone who knows what to do, and be prepared for it took take a long time, like a year. Small businesses aren't too bad, but if you want employees...that's a totally different story.
Solve the above problems I listed and then France will be attractive to foreigners. Maybe there's a business idea: help companies and people navigate French administration. It's worth a ton of headache.
I agree that coming without planning to learn a bit of french might be a burden.
This isn't France's fault. It's the US's.
I was able to open a bank account on day 2, without an ID. Obtaining the ID required a trip to the DMV, which while time-consuming, wasn't an especially complex endeavour.
Only issue I ran into was the government shutdown, and that affected everyone.
Getting a social security number was not particularly hard
Having no credit history was a pain in the ass.
DMV was annoying.
That my wife could not work on my visa was a problem.
The green card process was long and painful. Showing your genitals to a doctor to get a residency card was an unexpected and unpleasant part of the process.
edit: I agree having no credit history was a major PITA.
unless your bank accepted the matrix printer temporary one that doesn't even have a b&w photo.
I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.
My daughter is fluent in French and she went with me to the prefecture once. She told me that the woman behind the glass was super rude, even though she put on a smile and pretended to be helpful. In fact, the next time I made it through the line there and explained what documents I had and why, the guy went to that woman's counter and chewed her out for being malicious (she had written a partial list of required docs instead of handing me the official complete-ish pre-printed list), and apologized to me for her behavior. Then he rejected my paperwork for a reason that was not documented anywhere.
Catch-22s are everywhere; you can't open a bank account without proof of address, but you can't rent a place without a local bank account. It's the same for just about everything important. We had some French friends who cosigned for our apartment so we could get past that, and we were VERY fortunate to have friends who were willing to do that for us. A few people told me that everyone knows someone who can make fake paperwork; you just can't follow all the rules. C'est impossible!
However, I would say that living in France was a fantastic experience, and I wish I had done it 10 years earlier.
You don't need a visa, working permit, special bank account (for US citizens, since the bank must report income, etc, to the US gov), your driving license is valid, etc.
You change languages, currency, you need new bank accounts, new health insurance, completely different educational system. All administrations are different. The culture is also a shock. You will never find any of the grocery or shop you used to buy.
A French going to the UK is not much different than a Mexican going to the USA.
The only advantage is that you don't risk being deported by the police if they don't like you papers. You are effectively allowed to be there by the virtue of being European.
Getting a bank account was tricky though, most banks wanted a proof of address on a utility bill, but I couldn't sign up to sky/etc without a bank account. In the end, HSBC gave me an account with my passport as proof of who I said I was. Other than that, it was as difficult as moving city. Obviously not everyone has it this easy.
That's because both are EU countries (for now at least). Moving to France will also be much easier if you're an EU citizen, you won't have to deal with residence permits and your driver's license will also be valid.
A company can give you a letter to confirm that you work for them, that's also usable as a proof of address.
None of the banks I spoke to (TSB, Santander, nationwide, RBS) would accept a letter from my employer
I won't go in to details (unless someone asks) but one thing that I want to share is a great option for expats needing a French bank account quickly. It's called Compte Nickel: a fairly new (at the time) startup that is essentially a small bank-like system which requires only a French mailing address, a passport, €20, and a visit to a participating newsagent.
That gets you a bank account with the required RIB so you can get your salary paid, use ATMs, make online payments, and the like. It comes with a Mastercard debit card which the newsagent hands you upon setup in-store. The account has some limits on transactions to prevent laundering but nothing we found a hindrance. It costs €20 a year. If anyone is having issues getting a French bank account just so they can get on their feet, it will be of use to you:
We've since moved back to Germany, which was a huge relief. Being able to just email the local immigration office to give some info or agree on an appointment time... unthinkable in France.
As a same-sex couple who aren't married we also have some challenges most couples won't face. France, like the USA, does not recognise civil unions or anything other than a marriage when it comes to immigration. You're either married or single in their view. While for the USA, I remember we simply could not migrate there as a couple, the French at least acknowledged our situation and said I could have a visitor's visa and then get married once settled there with my visitor visa validated to become a residence permit (duration: 1 year).
The catch with the visitor visa however is that I had to fund my own health insurance (I found some expat insurance with Allianz which the French consulate said was acceptable) and also had to swear in a written statement that I would not seek gainful employment in France. It's hardly ideal.
My partner is a scientist, and because he was offered a research position at Lyon's university, he was given an expedited residence permit process. He went to OFII (immigration office) to confirm his residence permit about 3 weeks upon arrival in the country, and was exempted from all medical checks. His health insurance was provided using the French social security system. That last part took a while, but otherwise for him it was smooth as butter. I don't see why France couldn't apply this system to promising tech talent from abroad.
Now, for me the immigration process on arrival meant waiting 3 months for a letter from OFII for an appointment, which I couldn't make. That meant another 3 month wait, followed by medical checks including an X-ray, a talking-down-to by some immigration officials surprised that I hadn't learnt much of the language, and then a stamp on my visa. Now both residents, we could have applied for marriage at this stage, but we actually left for Germany just 2 weeks later - in France there is a one month cool-down period between marriage application and ceremony, so the timing wasn't possible. In any case, I would rather have a real wedding back home when it's finally legalised, rather than over here in Europe. No-one could really come...
Before I discovered Compte Nickel we had a hell of a time trying to get a bank account. We had an "attestation" from the university's housing board that we had an apartment reserved for us, but the bank first told us it was older than 3 months so no longer valid. Upon getting a new one the bank then said an attestation wasn't good enough anyway and we needed a rental contract to open an account.
We were staying in an AirBnB for our first month in Lyon and while the first two weeks looking around were pleasant enough, trying to organise long term accommodation and a way to get paid was super stressful. The university accommodation ended up being woefully inadequate so we cancelled that before we set foot in the place. Thanks to Compte Nickel and my partner's willingness to just pay a real estate company to find us an apartment, we got things sorted with mere days to spare before the AirBnB time was up, and things would have really gone haywire.
In France we made friends with a Finnish couple, an American couple, and a Finnish/French couple. 2/3 were also academics, and as married couples would have had much smoother immigration processes than ours. Despite this, all three planned to leave shortly after we did. None of us really liked it there. Lyon's suburbs are particularly filthy but even if I was in a smaller, prettier town I can't imagine being able to last very long.
I have worked in France for most of my career so far. My first hand experience is of course limited (I only have 5 years of experience) but I really feel that the FrenchTech is overblown. There are some great startups but they are extremely rare.
We have started hiring non french people in the startup I work for one year ago and the culture clash is tremendous. Things that have bothered me for a while are doubly strange for them :
- Everything takes a LOT of time and nobody prioritizes making the process more efficient. There are many bottlenecks.. after discussing with colleagues in non French companies, they have all found solutions in order to solve them. Here there is no will to do so. So it can take weeks to merge simple changes.
- very large aversion to new technology. Pretty much constantly lagging 1 to 2 years behind the rest of the community.
-LOTS of office politics
I don't expect any of these to become perfect in another country but I am more than ready for a change of air.
If by "technology" you mean web framework, then that sounds like a feature!
In my stack (Android) : started adopting EventBus while Rx was already pretty mature, deep into spaghetti code architecture while it has already been showed that variations around MVP or MVVM would be very beneficial.
I can't go into too much detail here but when there are some very big challenges around this product which faces an enormous memory usage and tons of memory leaks.
I am very practical and don't feel the need to use all the latest toys but here these are cases where the product could have been greatly improved by being a part of the community instead of living in an ivory tower where you are absolutely distrustful of external code to a ridiculous degree.
I know the DMV is the ultimate symbol, to a lot of Americans, of the ultimate administrative clutter. But trust me, if any 'public services' of France could run with just half the throughput and efficiency of the DMV, people would be more than happy with that :P
-> For the ultimate kafkaesque experience, just try get a car registration outside of Paris intra-murros, say, Neuf-Trois. You'll discover an alternative universe and might realize that hey, the DMV is awesome!
Is it a joke? Never heard of that in 30 years..
[0] http://www.lemonde.fr/emploi/article/2017/03/16/la-fin-de-la...
In certain industries, the company pays for you to go and get a thorough physical checkup every two years, on company time.
It's the unions that negotiated this, it's a benefit to the employee.
It may seem mundane when everything's OK, but thanks to this check many people discover they have diabetes, kidney issues, hearing or sight issues (both are tested at regular intervals) and can then take proactive actions to fix that, usually suggested during the last part which is the debrief with a doctor†. Similarly, that chat may look useless to healthy people but sometimes it help uncover psychopathological situations such as nascent burnout or depression.
Seriously, what's there to be so up in arms about it? It's all handled confidentially like every medical checkup, the employer can't see anything of it except a mention saying you're medically able or not able to do your job, it helps prevent drunkards driving school buses, and it may save or at the very least improve your life.
† Caveat: Some doctors do really suck and could care less. Sadly happens, but not all of them are bad.
Also worth noting that I've had to do this in other countries; I'd say it's more problematic elsewhere.
I would however say that yes, the French bureaucracy is something else entirely. But if you are friendly to them and show your face things will happen faster.
And it's only in Paris if you're in Paris, otherwise you'll do it wherever you live.
I don't really see what's shocking, it's just to make sure you're medically apt to do the job your employer is asking you to, and that your employer provides the right environment to work in a way that's safe for you.
For tech jobs it boils down mostly to workspace ergonomics, and a sane work schedule.
"Dependent children under the age of 18 do NOT need a residence permit. However, an underage child travel document (‘document de circulation pour étranger mineur’ – DCEM) must be obtained at your local Préfecture after your arrival in France."
In my prefecture we have been trying to get a DCEM for each child for 1 year. The prefecture is not doing them at all, and they do not know when they will again. And the prefecture says the children cannot re-enter France without them. Our immigration lawyer says "as a practical matter" border control will allow the kids back in if you fly into France (but maybe not another EU country).
The residency for kids is a pretty good deal, but you just may not actually be able to get it (maybe in another year?).
But I actually do really like France. I want to stay here awhile. I've done everything above board, legally, legitimately. The people are really great, not like the stereotypes. It's worth all the hassle I believe, but I think people need to be aware of the reality of the difficulty of the process that France is advertising in trying to attract foreign tech workers.
2. For people from inside the Eurozone, it might still not work: I've had a work contract in a Eurozone country that specified that I had to have a bank account in that country. Not sure why, not sure whether it's legal, but not necessarily something you want to fight.
3. In France, it would not work as a practical matter. In other countries, you give people your IBAN in an email and you're set; in France, they require you to give them something called a RIB, which is a piece of paper (or a PDF) issued by your bank carrying your IBAN. Foreign banks do not issue things that would be accepted as a RIB in France, so your employer would say they can't transfer your money. Stupid? Yes! Everyday reality in France? Also yes, sadly.
The main problem living in france with a foreign account is that most companies (such as phone and energy companies) does not accept foreign account for SEPA debit mandate (IBAN starting with anything else than FR).
It is a major problem for the development of european fintechs development in france, such as N26 german fintech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...
If my experience a few years ago with the auto entrepreneur scheme and URSAFF are anything to go by, you'll need a lot of patience, the ability to speak half decent French and a sense of humour if you want to avoid ripping all your hair out :)
I love France (have even married one of their citizens!) but this is a country where in 2013 we moved from one department to another and had to close our bank accounts with the branches in the first department and open new ones in the second department because there was no way to migrate accounts between branches of the same bank o_O We literally had to post cheques to a friend in the old department so he could deposit them while we waited for the old accounts to be closed and new ones opened (complete with different cards, chequebooks, account numbers - the works).
Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch. Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one).
Having said all of that, France is awesome despite its flaws and there are lots of reasons to be hopeful with Macron now piloting the ship.
After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life, or paying the significant opportunity cost of learning a new language -- which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business, and which won't help you in the next country in which you live.
What is needed is a joint common language (English) that everyone in the EU learns starting in kindergarten and in which you're guaranteed state services in every member state. But there is no chance the French and German speakers would ever agree to that, it is like a religious issue.
Great! I propose Spanish, being the second most spoken language by number of native speakers (behind Chinese), and given the relevance of Spain through history in Europe.
(this comment was only half joking. It's easy to impose a global language when it's yours, but you see, it's a different story when you need to learn a different one).
Debatable. I feel that business level fluency/proficiency is easy: limited vocabulary, limited jargon, overall formal tone.
Getting to a conversational level in any kind of social settings, now that's the hard part of any language, in my opinion.
Example: Some court proceedings in Germany can now be done in English:
http://www.fgvw.de/en/news/archive-2015/the-introduction-of-...
Personally, I've moved two times and I didn't have to do the close/open/cheque stuff. And the direct debit authorization I've since before the first move keep working.
As for cheques, It's very rarely used, I still use the first chequebook I was given when I opened my bank account more than 10 years ago. I've never experienced the "pay by cheque" at the super market since I was a child. Cheques are used in very few situations, the last I encountered was for the "solde de tout compte" when I left my previous job.
As for cheque usage, 4 years ago (when I was there) loads of people were still using them (young and old). This is in central and south France (no idea about Paris, never lived there).
If you belong to the Christian minority, expect to be harassed by those you say "We need to respect all religions". Everyday you'll face jokes like "priests rape kids, followers are stuck-up, donating is worse than sponsoring a mafia".
President Macron himself is seen as a capitalist enemy by those 20-50%, and this Mélenchon group explicitly denies his legitimacy. There are currently very active groups and many of my friends are preparing the ground on Facebook (God knows what kind of riots they're preparing for September – you think I'm kidding? wait and watch).
French people are entirely hostile to privately-owned companies and average-wealthy managers, so, no, I wouldn't recommend my country for entrepreneurs, not until they make peace with a reasonable dose of capitslism. And that's where I have hope for Macron: If he does the right things, he may tame anti-capitalism sentiments a bit and show that hard works does bring money.
In other words, 80% don't. I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make and I don't want to interpret your words as a claim that 20% is far too much. Until we get an implementation of Capitalism that proves its superiority to all other models and demonstrates its ability to regulate itself, it's probably safe to tolerate alternative points of views don't you think? If it provides moderation and balance, I'm not against it personally.
That said, the de-facto, pavlovian hostility you are probably referring to is certainly annoying: and what I mean is that sometimes it is just purely out of doctrine, without a single argument intelligent or not. But hey, you have the same thing at the other end of the spectrum, on the other side of the Atlantic where for example, the words 'socialist' or 'communist' are slurs.
It's exactly what we are talking about: Those 'commies' go well beyond oral discussions, they are materially hostile, with the ranges of consequences I explained above.
This is why it's called extremism: They are not tolerant with other points of view.
Anyway. You don't have to understand the problem for that problem to exist. Look at the other comments, there's enough testimonials of the same thing to attest that it exists. It's just that you belong to the group of people who deny it, downplay the problem, or attempt to show 'it's ok because others are doing worse', which doesn't help solving the problem.
The point is, since there is a specific risk for managers/owners of companies, I wouldn't recommend an entrepreneur to choose France. Let France solve its hostility to capitalism first, and see if people are less hostile in 5 years.
You might want to read your initial comment one more time then, my observation was related to your statistic about anti-capitalist 'opinions', but now you seem to have switched to 'violence'. The point I am making is that debating ideas is important and having a constructive critic of capitalism is necessary, that's why I have no problem with your statistic. Unless 20% of the population is ready to take up arms to install the dictatorship of proletariat, but I am sure you know this isn't the case.
> This is why it's called extremism: They are not tolerant with other points of view
Unlike you, who couldn't possibly be suspect of intolerance to other view points as demonstrated by your rhetoric.
> Anyway. You don't have to understand the problem for that problem to exist. Look at the other comments, there's enough testimonials of the same thing to attest that it exists. It's just that you belong to the group of people who deny it, downplay the problem, or attempt to show 'it's ok because others are doing worse', which doesn't help solving the problem.
You realize I quoted one line about statistics, and commented it, don't you?
In case you are curious, and since you have taken the freedom to cluster me in a group already, and seemingly know what my opinion is on your brilliant diagnostic of the problems of France:
Having lived on both sides of the Atlantic, I'm fully aware that certain aspects of France, administrative or cultural, don't exactly make it the perfect place to create a business, that said, I'm not an entrepreneur myself and there are certainly a ton of other positive aspects that should not be overlooked. As for the rest of your depiction of France as the ultimate entrepreneurial hell, it's a bit too excessive to be significant.
Who would mug you?!?
I can't speak for all ages, but the youth are incredibly passionate about politics and many hold strong anti capitalism beliefs and will enthusiastically riot at the chance to have their opinions heard.
What I love about Macron is his unashamed centerist approach. It's new in France and I hope he has ushered in a new dimension to French politics that sticks and makes it more normal for people to vote for different parties each time based on what a manifesto actually says and who's running for elected office.
Macron reminds me a little of 1997 in the UK and Tony Blair. Let's hope he avoids turning in to a war criminal in a few years time... :)
The thing is, those left leaning student bodies are the only ones to have credible presence in most universities due to the amount of support they garner to push their communications and frankly the incompetence of the right leaning student orgs.
It's a bit of a self perpetuating cycle where the right leaning folks don't have as much support structure to coordinate because of how everyone (themselves included) see the right.
- Generally, strikes start in unis and high schools in the far end of September, and, depending on the year, they may develop into fully-grown national riots in public companies (SNCF) then private companies, or if there's no political following, they die off with the October school holidays. This year I'm forecasting a lot of following, because Macron intends to take controversial decisions about employment laws during this summer.
- Flight strikes are rather planned for Christmas holidays (20 Dec-3 Jan). They have internal reasons and are generally not related to the October strike season. So, your September holidays are safe ;)
Hollande's reform clearly didn't have a majority, this one is in the same bag. Most of the people who voted for Macron did it only because of the fear of Le Pen.
The lecture is 30 years old but everything going on today makes sense after hearing him lay things out. The division in society on race, gender, income, etc is by design to keep the plebes at each others throats.
"If I am elected, France will launch a major initiative beginning this summer targeting the major Internet providers, so that they agree to the legal seizure of data from their encrypted services as part of the fight against terrorism"
Fingers crossed.
So there is indeed hope that he won't follow his campaign line to the letter.
Also, the large regions of France are called "régions" ;-)
You can use an online bank if you think you'll move around a lot. Plus today it has become very easy to switch bank thanks to Loi Macron, and most bank now take charge of everything to attract new customers.
All developers/people speak: French, English and Dutch.
The only thing is, the taxes are very high. But on the other hand, the health care is awesome and cheap. Flemish people are also known to be hard workers
Anekdote: I'm Flemish, but this is what polls/research of EU-countries also conclude.
The things you hear in the news, is mostly when the Southern part of Belgium is involved ( strikes, political crisis, Brussels-Molenbeek). Due to differences between North and South Belgium ( south = very socialist and even communism since recently, where north is more liberal)
I actually believe the northern part of Belgium has more in common with the Netherlands, than the southern part..
PS. I'll probably be downvoted, but please add your opinion. I know it's very controversial. That doesn't mean i'm wrong. If you think i'm wrong, i'm open for alternative opinions as always.
Also in actual Flanders, some people in the administration will only ever talk to you in Dutch, even if they understand English and French.
> Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch.
Not true for all banks, national ones (like BNP) always allowed to deposit anywhere, and for most you could mail directly to the account branch (no need to go through a friend). Also, online banks solve this nicely.
> Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one).
"Half" is overemphatic, even for 2013. This is not the case anymore, huge majority now pays via chip and pin cards and waiting in line is not so much of a problem with self-checkout machines.
Some doctors are also hell-bent on not taking carte vitale and "tiers payant", nor credit card. In such cases checks are practical.
Bureaucracies though are a completely different beast. Better value? Happier customers? They care not a bit. You need different levers to (sloooowly) move them.
For examples, I would look at automating standard government functions (e.g., car registrations, toll collections, etc.). Putting those online leaves some clerks unemployed and is thus often resisted by default, so someone found a working path for each of those
As an example, all the online banking start ups belong ( or were created as subsidiaries of) big banks. All of them.
We eventually transferred to a large multinational bank. It requires us to keep a lot of funds in their account. But I can deposit a check anywhere in France.
Don't they have the printers that will fill in your check?
I also wonder how appealing these international visa programs will be in light of the changing US immigration and visa system. Will the USA lose out on talent? Will the USA lose on half of the next generation of billion dollar+ startups? Assuming the past trend mentioned in WSJ persists, anyway
https://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2016/03/17/study-immigrants-fou...
I think that ambiguity is by design, to attract certain type of demographics for people falling under the employees and founders groups. (i.e. young, unattached, adventurous)
For people falling into the investor group, I seriously doubt getting visa renewed after 4 year will be an issue as long as they are willing to bring in additional capital.
It says right there on the page that it's renewable. Also, if you are in the country legally for four years, and you work and pay taxes, it should be easy to get some other kind of permanent residence permit. After one more year, you can even apply for citizenship.
A decade back i finished my high school in a French speaking country with honors and got an admission in a French university to study Business Administration. I've been refused the entry visa for some imaginary reasons. Unofficially i was part of the group of potential foreign students who may refuse to go back to their home-country after graduation. I then stayed in my country went to university to get a "useless" B.A. that couldn't help me to face the socio-economic realities of the world. In 2015 i read a book "Googled" by Ken Auletta that shacked me to the core and pushed me to learn how to code. I'm now a self taught programmer with skills that will benefit any French Tech startup and products' projects that could create 1000s of jobs in France if i decide to start my companies there. That said, I would not go to France because it didn't welcome me when i wanted to get in order to acquire knowledge. Now France "needs" me to come and boost their shrinking economy with the tech-knowledge i have acquired elsewhere. Sorry Monsieur le President, I ain't coming.
There are problems though: it leads to very early specialisation (when someone fresh out of school may still not be exactly sure what they want to do) and makes it difficult to hop between different trades/jobs (since you need to re-train in a lot of cases).
Or later, they could click on the 'Investor' link
Other engineering fields have less opportunities for self-taught people and innovation in those fields are driven by people with higher degrees.
Thereby proving that the emperor has no clothes.
When I was applying to grad schools in the US, my French undergrad was not recognized as a proper undergrad - it had to be a 5 year Master (I snuck around that restriction by spending a year in the UK and getting a british BSc).
But of course, French institutions consider 4 years american degrees to be equivalent to 3 year French degrees (rightfully so in their mind - after all, French people don't waste anytime declaring their major or taking general ed classes, which they have taken in high school; their class load also tends to be higher)
Tl;dr each country thinks their degree is better than the other's
We don't have people calling themselves engineers just because can type a few lines of code.
I guess if you're a bureaucrat designing a visa, requiring a degree makes sense. But saying that people lacking degrees aren't good engineers is crazy.
Btw, when English is borrowing words from other languages they also tend to undergo a significant semantic shift. It's a two way street.
The education system should be giving you clues on who you should hire. But it doesn't fulfill its mission at all.
An engineer is anyone who uses technology to solve a problem. Now there's a massive spectrum of quality there, but a piece of paper or two and some classwork doesn't make you an engineer. Or even a particularly good engineer. Just the other day I explained how Hash Tables work to someone with a Masters.
Should I make a list?
I do a lot of hiring and, in my experience, having a degree (or indeed the class/score of said degree) has no relation to the real-world abilities of candidates.
Oh, it's fun if they went to the school I dropped out of [I don't mention that I don't have a degree]. "Is professor Xyztmxl still teaching the OS course, and can any students understand him at all?" Good times, at the end of an interview, when things went well.
But education is almost always irrelevant. I prefer seeing wide-and-deep experience in someone from a no-name school to someone from MIT/Caltech/whatever who's just been pootering around on some narrow Java project for years.
I dropped out of uni in my last year due to family/personal issues but I've been working in tech for over 12 years now. I've never needed to show a degree here in the UK but back home (Spain) it used to be an issue. Recently the opportunity to relocate to the USA came up with my employer but I sort of rejected the offer since I assumed that getting a visa might be a bit of a hassle without a degree.
Why would France add a restriction to their visa that would have eliminated the founders of Amazon, Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX, Apple, Xiaomi, Facebook, Microsoft, Oracle, Uber and Didi Chuxing?
Are they pinning all their hopes on someone following the path of Larry Page or Robin Li, except choosing to immigrate to France to start their search engine? Are the people who made the rule just not aware how few of the top tech company founders have master's degrees? Is it some kind of intentional low-beta strategy to try to scoop up a bunch of more certain, smaller wins?
I truly don't understand what kind of reasoning went into to this program. It's just making France look out of touch.
Edit: ok apparently the founder needs money and it's employees who all need masters degrees (nearly as bad).
Only the employee's visa requires a masters degree. All the big names you dropped were people that never intended to be employees.
I'm not sure what the problem is.
> It's just making France look worse.
This is just silly.
It doesn't make sense in French to look for less than a master level, whereas the standard is the bachelor in the USA.
"Everyone" has a master in France. The curriculum is 5 years straight in France (either 2 or 5 years). There isn't really such a thing as a 3-4 years bachelor level in engineering.
Some numbers: 60% of programmers have at least a master in France, less than 30% in the USA.
> "This is just silly."
It's worse than silly. It's a baked in design flaw that literally would have prevented the foreign successes the program is in theory trying to replicate. It is silly to heavily credentialize an industry focused on doing new things, but it's also destructive.
The US has some enormous hurdles related to immigration, but it also has a network. Once someone is looking at the world outside SV/SF, there are many other places in the world trying to attract startups. Some of them have both stronger tech scenes and less regressive (though I still wouldn't say visionary) immigration requirements.
Why would a founder pick someplace like France, instead of South Korea or Australia where they could have a path to citizenship and a much easier time hiring talent?
It's sad, there is so much myths and fantasies around those specific guys.
To the best of knowledge any of them would have needed a visa to go to France, and one of them did in fact live in Canada and then the US on visas before naturalising and starting three separate billion dollar companies along the way.
special visa doesn't mean no visa.
myths and fantasies are not about their degrees but more on the public image we have of us who do more harm than good in my opinion.
"Rather than placing tech leaders on a pedestal, we should put their successes in context..." [1]
I would never advise someone to drop school without a strong family background, a solid bubble opportunity or just luck. And I don't like schools, for me they are clearly not the best places to learn, just to network.
[1] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/539861/techs-enduring-gre...
The minimum education requirement being a Master's degree is quite disappointing. I fear they are making the same mistake as Japan when the latter introduced their points-based immigration system that requires you to be fluent in Japanese with a Master's degree and published research, making far above the salary any Japanese worker would make in the same position.
France isn't exactly an easy country to immigrate to. I was toying with the idea of doing a Master's earlier this year; this might be the motivation I need to get it done now.
It was pretty disheartening to get a job offer from a big tech firm in New York only to have any chances shot down because of visa...
2) At least on the posted website, there isn't any big SS2I/ESN (Societe de Service en Ingenerie Informatique/Entreprise de service du numerique, aka meat renters, like Capgemini, Atos, Sopra-Steria...) or big employers (like Thales, Snecma, Airbus...) in the list. The list seems kind of legit as it seems to be constituted only of small start-ups.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Card_(European_Union)
Any info on the success rate?
Projects here are usually quite classical. Investors are shy with money. People from both sides reject risks, and hence the chance of a big success. They want the unicorns for cheap, without having to go find it in the forest and care for it.
The administrative burden, the taxes and the terrible situation with hiring give the last blow.
France is a terrible place for start ups. We got some. But given the great talent pool we have, I find the quantity and quality pitiful. We have good people here, smart ones, efficient ones, nice onces. And we waste so many opportunities.
The job security once you land a decent gig is not something to be discarded. This being said, Macron does plan on making it easier for people to be fired, in order to make it easier for companies to hire. This is a big topic that I could rant for hours about.
You do get all-inclusive health care. In addition to what the government provides, most 40k€ jobs will come with an extra private insurance ("mutuelle"), which will effectively reduce health costs for you and your family to 0. Depending on how nice your company is, you might be _taxed_ on an extra 20-40€ of monthly income, which gives mutuelle rights to you and your family. If you're unlucky, 20-40€ will be deducted from your pay for every family member on the mutuelle. This is usually not negotiable as it is managed/negotiated by the employee representatives/unions.
You also get fairly decent rents. 600€/month will get you a flat in any city, except Paris/Lyon. 1000-1400€ will get you a nice place in most cities.
You also get access to a decent transportation network to most Europe, and a very good internet connectivity, at the consumer level.
I moved from France to Denmark. I would say my wealth has increased (2-3x salary increase), but my overall stress has massively increased. France has a lot of good things going for it.
My health insurance is paid by my company and I don't really care about free education.
Yet, after all my bills, groceries for the month and rent (which is around $2k/month) is paid, I still have almost $2k / month in my pocket to do whatever I want. Good luck to have that in France.
The quality of life in Southern California is miles ahead from what I could have in France. My only regret is about food.
The thing is that most young people without connections are not employed in "CDI" anymore. 80% of recruitments are done in "CDD", which becomes the norm.
An what means "job security"? if your company wants to fire you it can easily, it just has to do it a decent way.
France is a beautiful place. Can I earn (in year equivalents) a similar or better amount as a senior developer?
This isn't going to draw very many Silicon Valley engineers to France, but it could bring some people to France who failed to get an H1B.
Btw, rent in London is about the same as SF or slightly higher. So even with benefits included it's a worse deal.
I don't know what the situation with renting is like in Paris but given how low salaries are rent would have to be much lower compared to London in order for it to make sense to work there instead.
[1]http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/work-permit.h...
Yes, some stuff feels really backwards, like getting a bank account (it helps a lot if you have a big wad of cash to dangle in front of your banker, you'll get treated differently), the RSI (social security for entrepreneurs) and the CAF (child support) are frustratingly incompetent, but most bureaucrats we dealt with have been quite understanding to our needs and some of them have really gone out of their way to help us.
I think it really depends who you stumble upon, and most of all - if you make an effort to speak French (which is definitely one of the hardest things about emigrating to France) you'll find that in the end it all works out, it just might take some time!
Also remember that the EU has a higher population than the US with very diverse countries to explore just a few hours apart, all rich of culture and stuff that is over thousand years old.
Oh, and of course we don't have Trump. :D
One freedom Europeans have is freedom from fear of the police, i.e. I don't think there's any country in Europe in which you might have to fear for your life when you're not doing anything wrong and happen to meet a cop, regardless of your skin color.
Also I think there's more political freedom in countries where small parties play a role in government, i.e. you don't have to choose between the Democrats or Republicans or a symbolic protest vote.
And while this varies by country, there are places where you can be just as "off the grid" as in the US and the bureaucracy will never find you (or even try). But I wouldn't try that in, say, Germany.
Anyway, that said I wouldn't propose that an American is likely to feel "more free" living in Europe, probably the opposite, but in some things they probably would be.
Source: US American living in Europe for a long time. :-)
Maybe taxes in California are crater than Croatia, but I would be very surprised if the average tax want much greater in Europe than in the US. Do you have specific places in mind?
I also think fear of police is overblown in the US (maybe I would feel differently if my skin were a different color, but this doesn't appear to have a basis in data), and "freedom from fear of police" isn't really a political freedom (at least in my mind) unless you are referring to police oppressing people for their speech, political affiliations, etc, which clearly is a non-issue in the US. That said, while the odds of being injured or killed by police are many times greater than in Europe, they are still miniscule. It seems analogous to the recently heightened risk of terrorist activity in Europe--many times greater than in the US, but still not a reason to avoid Europe.
I do think Europe is a good value proposition for a lot of people (I've lived there and occasionally consider trying to move back), but I don't think Europeans have more freedom.
False but typical argument. Some laws are voted in Brussels, all such laws have to be approved by the Europen Parliament whose members are directly elected (you elected a MEP, remember?), and many such laws are just harmonization of local laws that already existed in most member states.
The moment where we may have 'no idea' is when a law is drafted and negociated behind closed doors by the Commission, i.e the EU governments' representatives (your government and my government) who then conveniently blames Brussels for said 'closed doors', when it suits them.
There are reforms to be made in the EU for sure, but saying it is all-encompassing and secret is a mischaracterisation. The info is out there, it's just not spoon-fed to you by the media, mostly because it's boring. For example, what is being voted on can be accessed here: http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/World_ma...
Auto insurance costs me 25 euros a month for two drivers, two vehicles, with unlimited personal liability and 100 million euro property damages liability (not a typo). Doctor's visits are 25 euros each time and basically no other fees at all (from what I can tell). It's cheap and easy to register a small business. I rarely see police. I've seen a car pulled over by police 1 time in 1 year.
Once you get all your paperwork in line and get "in the system" life is pretty good. It's calm and you have a lot of social protections which brings peace of mind. It's safe. Crime is low. Food quality is off the charts. If you haven't been to France, come just for the food. You'll never be the same. Food quality is high and prices are a little lower than in the US. You pay more in taxes, but not a lot more (ignoring having to pay US income tax as an expat).
So it has caused me to look at freedom differently. Here in France it feels like the government is actually on your side, working to protect you. I've never felt that way in the US. I'm sure France has it's corruption and injustices but it seems much lower than the US.
The US is more like the Wild West. You are free, but you have to defend yourself. You have to do everything on your own: plow the field, milk the cows, stand with a shotgun when someone rides in. It's a sort of "dangerous" freedom. I'd take that over being subjugated, but France seems to have a better perspective. I think the climate and culture are the reason why, not really the form of government. And I don't think there is as much racial or ethnic strife here.
So I think France is actually pretty free. But I don't know if the US would get the same results if it just implemented the same policies. I think there would need to be a cultural change first.
That's what I experienced while visiting the US, but I assume it feels the same the other way around for an American in France.
Thus, IMHO there is a volcano under the surface, and if it goes off and someone like Trump comes to power,they will be controlling a more pervasive government that can do far more harm than the US government.
That isn't "freedom" in my mind and I think any member of HN should be horrified at the precedent being set for the future. What happens when someone who comes into power determines "hate speech" is anything that goes against them?
Ironically, Germany has returned to Nazi policies in their attempts to prove they aren't Nazis anymore.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/world/europe/germany-36-a...
By the way, we already had the "Stasi" in Germany and know exactly how real political censorship feels like. There is quite a difference between that and trying to protect peasants from being harassed to death.
You may agree or disagree with that kind of (again, fairly common) legal framework, but this has nothing to do specifically with Germany or with 2017. The only news in this article is that until now typically they would act on social media only following complaint, whereas now they are acting as if it were traditional media (i.e. acting once it is published).
How is this relevant?
Food is probably cheaper too, though not as dramatically.
I'm sure there are lots of perks to living in Europe, but rent is not among them.
Just curious, 'cause the rent in places like Waterloo, IA is about twice the number you quoted.
And there's not much going on in Waterloo, IA.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...
This is assuming that the bureaucracy cannot be disrupted itself outside of the government. I imagine if such a startup would work it would have lots of popular support. Uber for Bureaucracy.
Does France have anything to compete with that, other than better food?
Are our pig intestine based 4000 kcal per serving culinary offerings not good enough for your palate?
And the food is quite a big factor. :-)
I'm not arguing that it's better to live in Germany than in France, that depends on way too many variables (not just the food of course). But it would be nice to see more competition. Maybe if other EU countries really started beating Germany for tech talent acquisition, Germany might finally wake up and allow dual citizenship. (Wishful thinking on my part.)
This seems like too little too late.
In the same article, the USA is noted as having a higher DUI rate than either the UK or Australia in spite of both those countries having a lower legal drinking age and higher consumption of alcohol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driving_in_the_United_St...
I don't live in Paris but overall this doesn't change daily life by much. You basically only see a couple police officers in front of police stations and a couple guards in front of universities.
http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/making-it-happen/country-spec...
This is what ruin the French, only following trend. USA is doing TECH DAYS, let's do the same.