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Comment by chrisballinger | Hacker News Reader

Something I've noticed that's lacking from most aggregators like Kayak and SkyScanner (my current fave), is the ability to increase the price of the ultra-budget carriers by adding their carry-on baggage fees and whatnot. I don't care about checked bag fees, but some of the carry-on fees are ridiculous ($60 per overhead item?). These budget carriers are cheating the system by looking like the cheapest option, when in reality one of the more expensive carriers is actually cheaper once you compare them apples-to-apples.

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Hate to piggyback but I noticed that whenever this service gets posted on Reddit there are dozens of accounts that reply addressing Scott by name and have little to say.

Upon checking their comment history, I saw that most users hadn't posted anything for months, or even ever. It was clear that there was some kind of voting manipulation going on, and as reddit goes, if something gains traction it's bound to get upvoted just because.

It's a bit like Candy Japan, who posts here once a month with very little to say, and nothing vaguely technical in his articles. These kinds of posts just seem like blatant advertising. What are the rules for self-promotion of services on HN? It just seems dirty when there is a half-hearted article advertising a service without being labeled as an ad.

Throwaway of course, because I'd rather not get attacked by some bots.

Can you post some of these reddit links?

I'd imagine several small businesses these days would opt for the "vote manipulation" marketing since its easy. (The Silicon Valley TV show had a similar plot point).

I'll do you one better, "Reddit For Sale", investigatie journalism in a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxNvUWN3vYk

I used Candy Japan for a bit, and I still rather like the articles that they post. I stopped subscribing because I didn't actually eat the candy; now I buy Bento boxes at my local Japanese grocery store, and I have a "Prime Surprise Sweets" Dash Button in my house. But I'd never have been open to the idea of subscription boxes (like the Pusheen Box) if it wasn't for their articles.

Native advertising (where the content is an ad) is increasingly common; just look on YouTube, Instagram, Buzzfeed, or the average newspaper. Done well, it's win-win -- the customer learns about or feels good about a brand or business; the business gets better brand recall or a new customer or whatever. But the root cause is that people are having trouble making money online (banner ads, pre-roll ads, and text ads don't pay what they used to).

If you hate to piggyback then don‘t do it.

Add-on fees have gotten out of control, both in the hotel and airline space. There is a race to the bottom for having the lowest price to show on booking sites. This is a form of SEO for airlines and hotels.

I am not familiar with any airlines that charge for carry-ons, but for example I know that many hotels in downtown Las Vegas have mandatory "resort fees" that on many nights actually exceed the nightly rate shown in booking engine search results - so the actual cost of staying is more than double the advertised rate. Most booking sites have heard so many complaints about this that they do show the total (including resort fees) just prior to booking. But the "headline rate" - the one shown in search results and used by the sites in arranging results by price - is the one sans resort fees.

Taken to an extreme level, hotels could advertise a $1 nightly rate and a $200/nt "resort fee". It wouldn't surprise me if this actually started happening, given the competition among hotels to show up first in search results. It sounds like some budget airlines are headed in a similar direction.

Spirit airlines. Also many airlines are rolling out "basic economy fares" that don't include food/drink/carry-on and compete with low-cost carriers, but run on normal flights. What used to be "normal economy" now requires an "upgrade" or "add-on" - ugh.

Flew United recently and just after boarding they made an announcement asking if anyone had purchased one of these "basic economy" fares, presumably so they could exclude them from the twelve cents worth of pretzel+soda service. What a ridiculous and insulting system (not to mention poorly-managed!).

Yup -

At least if you're going to discriminate against people sitting next to each other, go off the manifest & don't be so overt about it.

I don't see how you can find it insulting. You pay less because you receive a lower level of service and that includes the pretzels.

You really don't see how being called out on the loudspeaker could be insulting even if the ticket buyer was fully aware of the service difference (which they may not be)?

Is it insulting when you have to sit in the normal seat pitch economy seat when the row in front of you paid more and received more knee space?

The funny thing is that not everyone may even know that they are on a "basic economy" fare and may not raise their hand - not out of a desire to cheat the system, but because somebody else booked their travel (corporate travel department, family member, etc.). That, in addition to the people that just don't want to be called out as cheap, will yield very few people voluntarily disclosing this on a crowded plane.

Another ridiculous thing about United Basic economy that doesn't seem like it would save them money is that you can't check in online early you have to do it at the airport...

That's in case they overbook you're end of the queue.

Okay, so that's just BS, then. They're just charging a ton of money for flying standby (which is normally super cheap), then.

Though you can usually bring your own snack and drink, no? A few cans from duty-free, for example?

Airport shops charge about the same price as buying the in flight beverages on Spirit.

Frontier airlines charges for carry-ons IIRC

Resort fees drive me crazy.

It's one thing to charge for add-ons if you're taking a flight, because they're technically optional and there is a way to avoid them.

But resort fees are mandatory. There's no way to opt of using the gym or the pool or whatever it is that they're charging for. That they are somehow not included in the list price defies logic.

And the worst of this is in Vegas. You wouldn't use any of their amenities and there they are collecting resort fee from you and then you end up spending another shit load of money gambling.

It's because Vegas is for suckers, and they know this. The entire purpose of Vegas is to separate tourists from their money.

Vegas is only fun when you have money to blow. My trip in Vegas all I thought was, why the fuck is this so expensive?

Not my idea of a vacation

Vegas is renown as a low cost travel destination, $5 prime rib, cheap liquor, cheap hotels, but you need to avoid the strip. There is a big immigrant population and there is no shortage of awesome cheap food minutes away.

I have/had money to blow but I still didn't enjoy Vegas a bit.

There are conventions in Vegas too, I was unpleasantly surprised by resort fees and other lowhanded tactics when I went there last week :(

The resort fee isn't charging for anything in particular if it's mandatory; you can just as well say it covers air conditioning and elevators.

The logic here is perfectly sound. Resort fees haven't decreased customers (or haven't by enough to matter); and the FTC has a long history of not doing their job, so the risk of enforcement is fairly low. Ethics aren't an issue because large corporations tend to be sociopathic. So why not?

United charges for carry ons. I had to book a flight day of for a family emergency and it was super inconvenient. I couldn't even find a fare class on United with carry ons that wasn't outrageous. You also can't check in ahead of time because they inspect you to make sure you aren't sneaking any carry ons.

As of when? I've taken a ton of flights on united and never had to pay a carry-on fee. I've seen such fees on airlines like spirit or fronteer, but never on a "non-discount" airline.

United is piloting a new program called "Basic Economy" for flights to Chicago and probably other cities, which effectively turns them into Spirit or Frontier Airlines. It's incredibly crappy. My guess is within a couple years all airlines will be doing this.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/bas...

Hopefully Southwest never goes this route. They are my favorite carrier.

Southwest never will. It is against their values and how they differentiate themselves.

I like them a lot also. Full credit on cancellations up to 10 minutes before take-off, two bags checked free, and no hubs (point to point, non-stop is the way to fly). At least they are unlikely to be bought by another airline at his point. With a market cap of $37.6 billion, they are the second biggest airline world wide and just under Delta's $39.4 billion.

Most fliers want the lowest price, full stop. They'll complain about it to no end but will still keep voting for it with their wallets.

Must be an interesting challenge separating out real user issues from the volume of complaints about the service people were advertised and agreed to up front.

> Most fliers want the lowest price, full stop

Is it that most fliers want that, or is that headline ticket price is the easiest thing to compare with existing tools, and what people can compare easily shapes their selection criteria?

How do you "vote with your wallet" when your flight to see your family (or destination) is operated by a single airline and you have no choice?

Do you ever use brain when you repeat this religious mantra?

It's not necessary for every single flight to have multiple acceptable flight options for the market forces ("vote with your wallet") to have an effect. You could not go. You could drive. You could fly into another airport and drive the last leg. You could charter.

I go out of my way to choose Delta(/KLM/AF), JetBlue, and Southwest over United, Frontier, Spirit, and Ryan. That works, even if it means I once in a great while fly on United because that's the best choice for that particular trip/leg.

How many markets are served by, say, United and only United? Other than their Micronesia operation, I can't think of any where you wouldn't be able to drive to an alternate airport within an hour or so drive (really just EAS airports).

This does not sound correct at all. A personal item and carry on are always free on legacy carriers like United. Are you sure this was not checked baggage?

I wish that were true, but things are changing. United is trying to compete with budget airlines by introducing a new fare class called economy basic. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/bas...

Read very carefully:

https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/travel/Pages/BaggageCarry-O...

Technically, they aren't charging for carry-ons, just disallowing them (for Econ Basic) and leaving checking (and paying the checked-bag fee) as the only option.

This is just like used books and various items on ebay coming up for 1cent with $15 shipping charges.

That was originally a way to avoid ebay seller fees. They didn't originally charge fees on shipping, only the cost of the item, which makes sense. People took advantage of that so they had to change that policy and charge fees on shipping it's not really "fair" to be charged fees on shipping but that's the way they choose to handle the situation. Now most things on eBay have "free" shipping, in other words the cost of shipping is rolled into the price of the item. I think you also have to have "free" shipping to be featured on eBay's daily deals which encourages the practice.

I 100% percent agree with you.

But on a practical note, some advice for those traveling on these budget airlines: if you pack your carry-on in a backpack rather than a suitcase, every budget airline in Europe and the US that I have flown on will not give you a hard time about it. I personally use a very large backpack that holds at least as much as a carry-on suitcase, yet the fact that it is in backpack form means they count it as my personal item and don't give me a hard time. When I travel I usually have a smaller laptop bag inside a compartment in my backpack, once I get on the airplane I take that out and keep it with me as a personal item (so I can easily access it inflight) and I put my backpack overhead like I would a suitcase. I have successfully done this on Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, and Ryan Air within the last year and have not had any issues.

This is also the best plan if you want to use the Basic Economy level on United and possibly other carriers. They will charge you for a conventional roll-a-board carry on suitcase.

> I personally use a very large backpack that holds at least as much as a carry-on suitcase, yet the fact that it is in backpack form means they count it as my personal item and don't give me a hard time.

Interesting; they always officially state that the “personal item” must fit under the seat in front of you, which clearly a large backpack won't. No airline's ever enforced it that I've noticed, but then I've never flown Basic Economy (and haven't flown since it was a thing.)

I wouldn't rely heavily, though, on that laxity not changing without notice.

A full backpacking pack at 60L+ will not. But a stuffed 35L pack will most likely fit.

My backpack has no problem fitting under the seat.

Do they even check if you've paid for a full carry-on as opposed to a personal bag? I've flown Frontier a few times worried about the size of my backpack, and I never saw anything on the computer when I scanned my boarding pass to indicate any of that information. I'm fairly certain the gate agent didn't even look at my baggage.

I have been doing exactly the same thing for years! But personally I think it also depends on, well, your physical attributes: being tall/big makes the backpack seem always small, and also makes it kind of invisible to the people in front of you (who are the ones that will eventually decide whether to check if your backpack fits into the limits or not). I think the same trick would not work for shorter/smaller persons. But I might be wrong of course.

I have written to Kayak suggesting this in the past. Without such a feature, the hidden charges and nickle-and-diming will just get worse.

The best explanation I heard (from elsewhere) was that if Kayak automatically included any fees, then some users might see a lower price on another site and mistakenly conclude the Kayak didn't actually have the lowest prices. But this seems obviously solvable by making it a non-default option and displaying the price as "$X ($Y fare + $Z fees)".

They could provide a search option to let you plug in what kind of baggage you wanted. So you could say 1 overhead, 2 checked bags, and then it could add in the cost (or show it broken out next to total cost)

Out of curiosity, which airlines charge $60 for cabin bag?

The most passenger-squeezing-until-recently airline in Europe (Ryanair) now allows two cabin bags for free (one standard ~55cm bag and one small bag).

Apparently Wizzair charges 10-20€ for "large" (aka regular) cabin bag though, only small ~42 cm bag is allowed for free.

If you're comparing round-trip ticket prices, you should double the carry-on fee for comparison purposes, since the airlines that charge fees for carry-ons typically charge it on both outgoing and return legs.

Spirit is an American low-cost carrier with fees in that range. It's $56 roundtrip for a carry-on bag if paid for at booking time, $76 if paid online after booking, or $114 if paid at the airport in person.

Wow does too. They actually make sure it's not too big sometimes as well. That said Wow can be 4-5x cheaper otherwise, so an extra ~$50 bucks for a carry on is still worth it. No entertainment and wifi but you'll sure get there cheaply!

For a carry-on in addition to one personal item:

Allegiant charges $15--50 depending on when you pay. https://www.allegiantair.com/popup/optional-services-fees#ba...

Frontier charges $30--60 depending on when you pay. https://www.flyfrontier.com/travel-information/baggage/#info

Spirit apparently charges $35--100 (according to many news and other sites online), though maybe the last price is "on the airplane" only?

Wizzair in Europe.

Even Ryanair doesn't charge for carry-ons.

What is the general policy on the so-called 'Ryanair jacket'? Can you get in trouble by packing 20kg of stuff in your coat?

Hipmunk can do that.

Or credit card fees.

Pay by debit: 0

Pay by credit: 5 to 10%

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