I Almost Got a Job on 37Signals Job Board | Hacker News Reader

I Almost Got a Job on 37Signals Job Board

datawalke.com

134 pointsdatawalke67 comments

The job ad was riddled with typos, bad grammar and bad style. Why did you even respond to it? The domain name on the email account was different from the name of the company. The person running this "Shivum Gautama" has zero history in google. etc.

Overall, Mr. Gautama might have been a creep but atleast he was decent enough to show his true colors so early in the game.

Not to mention he posted under different names but the same skype id:

http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs/7003

http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs/6958

This reminded me of something the other way around.

Back in 1998, I was on summer break before going to college. My parents said I had to get a summer job, so I got an entry level PR job at a Web design agency (new media, baby!) in London. Somehow, within a few weeks I was attending recruitment interviews. One totally normal looking guy came in, sat down, and after a quick introduction the CEO asked him what his background was. The guy jumped up, shouted "you can go f!@k yourselves!!" and ran out slamming the door. Never saw him again.

I was only at the agency a month in the end, but just the crazy things I saw there could fill a book. In hindsight, I regret quitting.

At my first web job, the week I started there was an empty desk alongside mine. The other employees spoke of its absent occupant as though he was a bit of a curiosity (like they could talk - you could write a sitcom about that place).

He eventually returned from leave and I found out why he was the strange one even in comparison to them: he was over 60 years old, still lived with his mother, had some penchant for buying any food that was on sale (even if he never ate it, and even to the point where he was buying more freezers to store it!) and his recent leave was granted after he set himself on fire in bed. He also had an uncontrollable giggle.

Those were the days!

They were the days! The oddest thing is I've Googled about 10 names from the late 90s Web design days and haven't found a single person. I can't imagine what they're all up to now but it doesn't seem to be the modern Web development industry, that's for sure. Were the late 90's "new media" bunch really a wackier, more diverse lot than we are now?

Not a personal contact, but Jeffrey Zeldman, who I used to read about when I was finishing high school, is still around 15 years later.

I worked with Jeffrey in the late 90s, 'new media' days. Nice guy. Not sure if he was wacky as I'm apparently wacky myself.

My weirdest disappearing story...

A work mate (not web, Linux/Unix/3D programmer) was made superfluous ten years ago.

He was cool and we others missed him when he totally disappeared. (We also missed his incredible music collection with technical death metal, weird folk and improvised jazz.)

Then, years later, I Googled his name among the credits of a game.

When people disappear, they might not have died -- it might be worse... they might be developing games. :-)

I met him last year when I traveled to where he is living now; like most everyone else he had burned out doing games.

Hmm, I'll send an email and see if he's collected himself and is back doing weird hacking...

I guess people I know might be telling disappearing stories about me, since when I got ill a bunch of years ago.

I think they were wackier. When I got into Web (95/96, though did some new media stuff a couple years earlier) almost anyone already in the field had moved across from another career path because there simply weren't established training pathways for young students. If you were a strong graphic designer, you stayed in graphic design. Whereas, if you were a desktop publishing hack who was a mediocre designer but didn't make a concise type-setter, then learning PageMill and so on was for you.

> some penchant for buying any food

> set himself on fire in bed

> uncontrollable giggle

I wonder, what could possibly lead to such things?

Living with one's mother?

can you think of any strange interpretations of "what is your background"?

like, could he have thought it was a question about his ethnicity, or anything other than career history?

Good point, but I wasn't quoting verbatim - it was 12 years ago.. It was similar or "what are your qualifications?" A basic interview question, in any case :-) (FWIW, the guy was tall, white, English, in his 20s - not a typical group to be sensitive over identity issues, but who knows :-))

In a previous job there was a system similar to JIRA that sent out e-mail notifications on new bugs and so on. Each employee was also represented by a ticket with contact information and so on.

Less than a week into starting this job, I received an automated message saying that "Ticket 1234 Fred Bloggs has been deleted". At the same time, the guy got up, left and never returned...

We've seen this guy a number of times under different guises over at 99designs.com.

Our anti-fraud systems mostly pick him up now, he's not particularly bright.

Does anyone have a contact at 37Signals that I could provide with details?

kiran ..at.. 37sig

We emailed this guy and are waiting back to hear his side of the story. I can't imagine how he'll defend himself, but we'll give him 24 more hours before we pull his jobs off the site.

This type of exchange can only happen on HN. :)

I wonder how likely that guy would have been to respond that way in a face-to-face meeting? I mean, I suspect he would have been somewhat likely, but on some order of magnitude less so than for internet communication.

Why do people treat internet based communication differently than other, older forms? I've never had a misunderstanding in person, over the phone, or over snail mail devolve into such a vile display of human worthlessness.

Does the mode change people or does the mode bring us into contact with more people who would be likely to respond in this manner? I know I have gotten into more arguments online than in person, but I also know that most of the people I know in person are fairly reasonable people. The relative anonymity of the internet tends to hide details that would lead me to avoid certain types of people long before such an argument appeared.

Maybe in 20 years, when everyone can no longer remember a time before the internet, we will have figured out "etiquette" properly. Ha, that reminds me, I haven't seen a "'netiquette" posting in so long; they used to be so popular 10 years ago. Do we just assume (wrongly) that every gets it?

I think it really comes from the ease of the exit and the disconnect from anything human. Even when you come down to it on a snail-mail level there is still a human element to that communication. Whether it be the signature at the end, or hosting a physical object in your hand, I think something makes it more real.

When you are online everything fits into the same type of frame: Words in a font on a screen. It looks just the same just about everywhere. I think it may be that these people believe they are yelling more at a screen and some text than a real human being on the other side.

I think it's more like talking about etiquette offline: We've realized it's pretty futile in most contexts and it just brands you as "lame."

speaking of etiquette I totally lost my cool in a post yesterday after sync issues ate it (now notes on iphones auto syncs and can sometimes lose information and revert).

after the post (f u ios devs) I felt some regret. but it's one thing if I choose to waste my time (like on HN), it's entirely different when someone else does so.

> your name is JIM WALKER, and you type NOD every 3 seconds

What does that even mean?

It means he doesn't understand 'actions' in online speech.

I do nod a lot myself as an indication I'm paying attention, and every so often it surprises me when someone doesn't quite understand.

So you would type out the word "nod" once in a while, just like you would nod your head during a physical conversation? That's curious. I've never seen that before - I don't use chat/IM a whole lot though.

I know a few people who do it. I can see the point... sometimes you say something and you aren't sure if the other person has gotten up to use the bathroom or is otherwise distracted, or if they are thinking of something.

Personally, I prefer 'thinking...' or 'looking' when I ask a question and there will be a delay, but I can see the point of 'nod'

I think it's an IRC-ism since there you can type

    /me nods

And the "/me" token will be replaced by your username and the whole "action" will be a different style (font/color/what-have-you) on some clients.

The same command works on Skype and does what one would expect. It's just not really advertised. Try typing /help in a Skype chat window.

I dont know if the log was edited or not, but the placement of that comment was completely random. As was the 8th grade outburst. I gotta say that made me chuckly though.

Within Skype, typing (nod) will insert an emoticon which appears to be nodding.

http://factoryjoe.s3.amazonaws.com/emoticons/emoticon-0144-n...

I read it as a skype-centric way of writing "You are my subordinate (I assert my dominance by saying your full name) and when I say jump, you ask how high!", which seems to fit the tone of the rest of the message.

While I agree you dodged a bullet, I wouldn't use PayPayl either after the numerous stories I've heard about how they keep people's money for various undocumented reasons. That combined with the fact it's near impossible to actually get someone on the phone who can directly help you can give you significant risks by using them.

Look into wire transfers as they're a lot safer and the money goes directly into your account. Sure it might cost a bit of money but if you split the cost with your employer you don't have to go through a middle man then.

About four months ago I had a client who received their licensing information put in a claim on me. Even though I sent full documentation showing that they received their license they still refunded this individual. That did get me quite upset with PayPal. Since then I really haven't done that many transactions with them or any online freelancing. I'll have to keep the wire transfer in mind for the future. Thank you bosch!

I have this happen to me. My licensing system accepts the PayPal Reversal IPN and cancels the license key. The next time the software checks for an update it sees the license is invalid and disables the license. I'm not sure if it's the best way to handle the situation, but it's effective.

this will happen with any credit card processor, not just paypal. If the consumer says they didn't receive a 'digital good' the merchant doesn't get the money. hell, a lot of cards will refund the customer's money even if it was a physical good, and the customer just didn't like it.

Obviously the posting is still up. Have you emailed the transcript along to the folks at 37Signals? They should really pull this (or better yet append the transcript to the job posting).

Yes, I have contacted the guys at 37Signals. They said they would be in touch with the creator of the listing to verify all of the details.

It looks like he has two other posts up as well:

http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs/6958

http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs/7003

All sketchy and heavy on the caps lock.

A quick search on google shows that he is posting the same ads on other job boards:

http://www.google.com/search?q=phenomsolutions1

(Not that it is super relevant)

I think it's totally relevant: I'm making a living by doing contract work right now. I now would never even consider accepting a job from phenomsolutions1. I'm really glad to know I shouldn't even entertain the notion of working with this guy.

A search on google now shows this link is now the top google ranked search for this guys name.

The BlueBerry is going to totally replace the BlackBerry. MARK MY WORDS.

I had to read that twice. Jeez. You dodged a bullet there. Just imagine if you actually TOOK that job.

Absolutely. Once he IM'ed me I was looking for a way to get out of there without seeming rude. I cringed when he agreed to the price I gave. I thought it was going to end the conversation there. I am still working on growing a pair and walking out of things as soon as I want out instead of trying to find a way to make things work. It is still a transition for my mind to get into "It's okay to say 'No.'"

Saying no can be really, really tough - but rewarding. In my experience most programmers are conflict-adverse and like taking on projects, this might be obvious but it means we often find ourselves over stretched. Speaking of 37signals, David had a good post on that awhile ago (http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1626). It's a real problem that I, and I'm sure many others here, struggle with.

edit: (unrelated) Have you brought this to the attention of 37signals? You should send them this story, I feel like they may want to keep unsavoury characters like this away from their board in the future.

I have contacted 37Signals and they informed me they will look into the issue. Thank you for the link to David's post as well. I am giving it a read over now.

This is why I always prefer to look them in the eye and ask for a face to face meeting. If that's not possible, then I'll do a Skype video conference. That's not going to weed out all the crazies, but at least it'll give you a better feeling to complement your initial guy instinct.

How the brief was written scared me a little, but 37Signals charges a pretty decent amount to post a listing so I figured it was all going to be kosher.

So, the question here is: why didn't you trust your gut feeling? Why did you value your (simplistic) rationalization more?

I can't speak for him but it's probably the part where the guy insisted on a payment method that he could back out of after receiving the final product and wouldn't accept two reasonable options that he was less likely to be able to back out of.

As I commented before I think it is a bit of me still trying to give everyone a chance. From the brief it did seem like that something was off. I just have to keep developing on letting certain "opportunities" pass at certain times.

> So, the question here is: why didn't you trust your gut feeling? Why did you value your (simplistic) rationalization more?

Why trust instinct when you can trust fact?

Because the facts were incomplete in this given situation and instinct is an important facet of survival (be it your life or your sanity).

Looking at the original ad, did you really think that was going to end well?

Seemed odd to me too. That would have been one I skipped right over

I've been insulted in a chat by a HN member, too (chatting about contract work). Disconnect... I actually found it interesting to meet that kind of person (even if just virtual). To think that some put up with that kind of abuse every day in their office jobs...

I wouldn't like to use PayPal either, though.

Actually, running through Odesk or Elance as he suggested can be pretty safe if done right, but the fees kind of suck. You could have also transferred your funds into Paypal. I didn't get from the conversation that he would have been a guy to screw you over with non-payment, but you could have been screwed over by changing scopes and unrealistic expectations. If you are okay with doing hourly, then that's probably the best way of dealing with these sorts of clients, and Odesk pays weekly for hourly work.

Add Akshay Rustagi (posted from Craiglist) to the list of scammers. Their usual trick is skype chat or talk. The best way to identify scammers is to talk face to face.

More people have been scammed face-to-face than over the internet. I am currently reading Robert Greene's The 48 Laws of Power, and he discusses many actual cons that have taken place over the years. My favorite is where a guy got $5000 out of Al Capone.

I don't do a whole lot of freelance work, but when I do I always talk to the person over the phone (or face to face if local) before starting. You can pretty much read a person after a minute of conversation and know, but with IM or email you just can't (unless the guy goes crazy on you like this one).

how does this scam work though? at what point does he actually get money out of people he approached to employ?

don't tell me he's scamming people out of web-design labor.

Basically he would have used a stolen credit card to pay for the contest he was suggesting on 99designs.com. Then he would have awarded the prize to the designer, but asked the designer to send him back some of the money "for tax reasons" or some other nonsense via PayPal. If the designer can get the cash out before the chargeback comes in or the design contest site notices, then he profits.

Aside from that, he might just have been getting free design work that he could sell elsewhere.

Anyone having DNS troubles with this domain?

Thanks for pointing this out, I really appreciate it. I reviewed some of the zones today and something was out of wack on the nameserver.

http://is.gd/d7eBI it looks like this guy posts job ads under different names. all of them have red flags so it shouldn't be hard to avoid scumbags like this.

This is just out of curiosity, why shorten that URL?

I'm not saying this as a joke at the previous poster's expense, but I think it really is likely a result of too much time spent on Twitter (and perhaps an addiction to the is.gd clickthrough analytics?).

when I first started doing contract work I used to look for reasons to say yes.

now I look for reasons to say no.

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