USPS loses millions each year on local delivery of mail from abroad (2014)
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I understand the seller's frustration - their means of supporting themselves has been taken away, but I'm not sure I buy the argument that we need the intermediary just to "add to the economy". To me it just seems like an unsustainable business model that was destined to die once global communication became much easier, not just because of the various treaties and agreements of postal services.
The moment that chinese sellers could get a site available to a global audience, the need for an intermediary vanished; before you essentially paid for the connection; an extra $18 on a remote controlled toy boat was paying for access to the seller's inventory, supplied by his Chinese connections.
Now, there's no need for that connection or that warehouse - the visibility for any foreign seller is much greater, even to the point that it probably would still be valuable even without the USPS trade deal.
It's unfortunate, but this just seems like a model that was destined to die.
The internet has allowed a new generation of middlemen to rise, providing the service at a lower cost.
eBay and Amazon are middlemen.
Note that whether or not middlemen add value is not under their control. Local resellers add much less value than they used to now that global e-commerce works. Recording labels added value until the Internet came, and now they don't.
The surplus comes from the fact that US buyers don't have to pay a percentage to the intermediary, so they can spend it on other things, like going out to a local restaurant more often.
A contrived example...
A person has $X that they spend every week at the local town restaurant. They see they can buy a cool new widget from a Chinese vendor (from the article) for $Y. Over the course of the next few weeks, said person spends a little less at the restaurant so as to save up $Y, ultimately purchasing the widget once enough money is saved.
In this example the person is contributing less to the local economy.
Though I don't see introducing/enforcing waste as a right way to ensure more money goes to the national economy.
I guess the question then is: do we have a way of predicting which way it will go?
Take that subsidy away. If the intermediate seller can still survive, then he is still providing some economic benefit.
The problem is however, even in cases when you can produce something as cheaply in the US as in China, a Chinese seller can still beat you on price because they pay less for shipping.
And that seems dumb.
I wouldn't necessarily expect local-to-local shipping always to be cheaper. But I'd expect there to be at least one option where you can bring a pre-labelled package to a shipping hub and get it sent at the same or lower cost.
I'm not convinced at the moment that it's the shipping alone that is causing the issue with the US sellers, especially given the limitations of the cheap shipping agreement (under 4.4 lbs I believe it said).
A small domestic package just costs more than one shipped from China. So yes, it's possible they can instead compete on delivery time, and they do.
But all else being equal, it seems dumb that they can't be given access to the same pricing as Chinese sellers if they conform to the same rules (drop off at shipping hubs, labeling standards etc).
http://thydzik.com/how-do-chinesehong-kong-sellers-make-mone...
Anything else I consider too risky. In particular, I never order consumer electronics from China (unless I explicitly go for a particular Chinese brand). The crap quality is not worth the price savings.
For stuff like resistors, capacitors, some microcontrollers, power supplies, etc., the Chinese sellers are pretty reliable.
My experience is that way over 95% of items are as described, arrive safely, and perfectly functional. The odd item that is broken in transit (or never arrives) I simply choose not to care about.
I don't need a warranty on a connector, an Arduino clone, or a tube of solder...
I wouldn't try that with consumer electronics though. Anything that's actually assembled to be sold cheap will likely be close to unusable. I can name plenty of examples of crap electronics I ordered from China or saw personally on Chinese markets when I was in Shenzhen. I stick to big western brands in this market simply to avoid completely useless crap.
It's literally better than 95% (probably more like 99%) good stuff and I'm willing to eat the small amount of slippage/breakage/fraud/poor design.
In a parallel comment I described my negative experience with USB cables, which I tested on-site to find some that actually work for charging a cell phone. I also sourced USB chargers from China and have two burn out on me. Random Bluetooth headset from Aliexpress managed to completely mess up Android on my phone (how that was possible is beyond me, but I guess crappy Bluetooth 2.x firmware).
So, anecdata to anecdata, I don't share your confidence in any kind of electronic products. I stick to sourcing components now.
(One exception from my "components only" rule are USB cables. I bought a bunch when I was in Shenzhen, and I actually tested them physically before buying; I discovered that if you pick a random USB cable there, there's like 70% chance it won't be able to give you more than ~750mA from a 2A charger...)
The Father Niemoller of the modern age.
My experience with this isn't quite how you're describing. The Chinese vendors are sort of having their cake and eating it too. They'll often, for example, not be honest about the the shipping time, their return policies, product details, ability to answer product questions, and so forth. Even if the selling platform does something about it, another Chinese seller pops up to replace any that are booted out.
So, for the end consumer, they don't get a true view into what the consequences are of buying from the lowest bidder.
It's difficult for a US supplier to get their value proposition out there on platforms like Amazon, as there is one product listing and multiple sellers. There's no spot to show why your offering that's priced higher is worth it. Better support, return policies, fast shipping, product knowledge, etc.
For some products and items, the difference between the chinese produced items and the actual items is a world of difference (e.g., electronics batteries, power adapters), but that isn't really the business that the article was talking about the cut into - the issue was resellers who would buy up a warehouse stock from chinese producers and sell it at mark-up; with modern postal agreements and websites, there really isn't a need for this particular service.
It's not a matter of meeting shipping times or any other value propositions, it's "do we need someone to resell a toy boat at twice the price when we can buy the same stock directly"
That may not apply to toy boats, but it does apply to some things. Take USB to serial adapters, for example. In that case, a middle man does add value. A good middle man ensures that you get what was advertised...for example, the chipset is what the product listing says it is. They also provide better documentation, support, the ability to return the item without high shipping costs, etc, than the direct-from-china seller.
So, yes, it's slightly different...taking into account that in some cases the middleman adds value.
Also, it does still apply if you don't like the idea that the Amazon listing said shipping would be a week and it ends up being a month. That's not just the overseas shipping time either...it's the cultural difference with the Chinese sellers. "Sorry for the delay, it is Chinese New Year, and we're all off on vacation for 2 weeks, and we just don't work , note that in the listing, etc".
Or, it matters if you want to return the toy boat. Your cost to ship it back to China might exceed the total cost of the item you paid.
If these tradeoffs were known before hand, I get your point. Typically, though, they are deliberately not disclosed.
On eBay, from a customer's perspective, there's no difference between a US seller and a Chinese one. We have the same way of "punishing" them. I cannot punish a US based seller any more than a Chinese one.
>If these tradeoffs were known before hand, I get your point. Typically, though, they are deliberately not disclosed.
Frankly, the stuff I've bought on eBay from Chinese sellers is so cheap that I don't really care to return them. They fall into the price range of "I don't give a damn". In the US an item may be $30. From the Chinese, $7. It's worth the gamble.
(And it really is worth the gamble. I've not been disappointed once).
You can, in that eBay has less ability to deal with Chinese sellers coming back with fake or borrowed credentials.
I do concede that eBay and their seller centric reviews deal with this better than Amazon and their product/not-seller centric review model.
Not been my experience for shipping time. They usually claim such a large shipping window that it is always delivered within that window.
As for lower quality service, I'm not sure I see the problem. The consumer wants to pay a lower amount, and he gets what he is paying for. There's nothing fundamentally wrong or unethical about it. The same principle will hold in the US too. And frankly, I've had plenty of poor service on eBay from US based sellers.
I interact with Chinese sellers a lot. Both as a middleman, and for personal purchases. Hundreds of purchases over years. I see a lot of deception, deliberate as well as unintentional.
There's also a second argument at play: If China can make a product for $10 cheaper, legitimate shipping included, because they're allowed to abuse their workers and pay them much less, do we trust pure capitalism to properly prioritize the values of the American people? This really is the case of, say, Apple's electronics plants in China.
We've always benefited from Chinese labor abuses, and whether an American intermediary is involved doesn't change that.
The problem is that no one on those villages are interested in paying some small price to receive a thing from America.
Fast forward to 2017, yes, now the agreement seems unfair because the deliver of goods changed a lot. Perhaps should be reviewed. But I wouldn't say it just worked on theory back then, neither will I say that now it is unidirectional in practice (because you still can make it go in any direction).
And the main point isn't just that things made in China are cheaper. It's that China has so much freight going to all parts of the world that putting one container full of envelops with a single button inside doesn't cost a thing, so they win in on how much it costs to take an envelop from a post office inside China and deliver it to a USA / Europe / South America port.
It costs about US 1,900 to take a container from Shangai to New York (source: https://www.searates.com ). That is cheap.
Shipping a container from Shanghai to NY is not the issue, it is that China pays less for shipping along the same route in the US and other western countries. They are paying less than others, on top of the fact that mail is largely unidirectional - so they're kind of cheating twice. If the shoe was on the other foot they'd be on top of it because they have more intelligent leadership than Western nations.
But there are some digital goods where we do not give this same treatment (namely digital material involving really bad child maltreatment). Regardless of the legality of where the material is produced, owning it in the US is illegal because it couldn't legally be produced in the US and funding such illegal action elsewhere is considered morally wrong enough to ban.
Simply put, I think the core idea should be applied to all financial transactions. If one is buying a good or service that would be illegal in the US due to harm to another human, it should be illegal to buy or own in the US, even if where it is produced is legal. The law should prevent a person from harming another human by shopping around and finding wherever has the least legal protections.
If we applied this to foreign transactions, foreign countries could easily use the same grounds to block goods and services coming from the US.
I don't agree, because there's nothing consensual about the situation...
I took a quick look at what people are sending their SOs in prison to spend at the commissary to buy things like deodorant and snacks (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-682271....). The numbers ranged from lower ($40) to several hundred a month. Assuming $100, they'd have to work over 11 hour days.
But who decides the values of the American people then? Should the govt's approach be "We know this product was made by kids, so it is banned", or "We are educating you that this product involved child labor, it is upto you to use your values now"?
I think the second approach will cause trivial change, at best.
Vegans and various religious people make different purchasing decisions because of values they actually find important enough to change their lifestyles for.
Subsidizing businesses abroad seems less desirable, especially if it costs us millions of dollars a year. That should just be part of the price of the good, whether or not it goes through a US intermediary. Instead we have this weird system where purchases directly from China are subsidized by taxes, but domestic purchases are "full price".
Things will change starting next year. The Universal Postal Union (UPU) has adopted a new revision of the terminal dues system [2] that classes bulky letters and small parcels differently from normal mail.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPU
[2] http://news.upu.int/no_cache/nd/member-countries-adopt-new-t...
Does this mean "less developed" China will end up being subsidized even more?
The latter change merges some groups but will, to my understanding, not affect China. Groups 1.2 and 2 (countries which joined the terminal dues target system in 2010 and 2012, respectively) will get merged; as will the countries in groups 4 and 5, which are currently transition into the target system. China appears to remain in group 3. [1]
[1] http://www.upu.int/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/listCountryClassi...
China will have to pay more than today because a lot of their parcels will fall into the (now more expensive) bulky letter category. The US remains highly-developed, so you can expect terminal dues to remain cheaper than the retail rate. Finally, I suppose the Chinese government will continue to subsidize the transport from China to the unloading port in the US.
In essence: When sending from China, you can expect to just about pay the terminal dues; the international transport is subsidized. You can expect this to stay true for as long as the US is significantly more developed than China.
They've needed to fix the pricing model for a very long time.
For example Chinese parents who are well off want to have genuine baby food from western countries since the milk powder scandal that hit China a few years ago. They pay tremendous surcharges for a package of baby food and it must be sent from the west.
The same goes for luxury goods. You want to be sure to get a genuine Louis Vuitton bag? Get someone you know to buy it in France and have it shipped to you. The French postal office will cash in 50€ while the costs are certainly far below that.
Economically, getting goods for as fraction of the former price to consumers for just 78million a year sounds like a fantastic deal.
They've recently opened a warehouse in Oregon, where they'll receive domestic US shipments, and deliver to you in Australia for a separate fee. https://shopmate.auspost.com.au
I imagine the labour cost is one contributor within Australia. Without volume, no one wants to be doing runs to the post office for a dollar.
With products from the US, I've routinely bought things from Amazon and shipped US-AU and saved money easily - hard drives, memory cards, and even things for which the shipping should make it cost prohibitive like a full-size baby pram.
It's good for consumers, but also means the domestic e-commerce is severely underdeveloped.
It is by no means a fix but the government is not always making it as easy as you would like to skip on duties added to level the playing field. Postage aside, which is skewed by treaties, the main purpose of import tariffs is to offset labor costs which they do pretty well in my opinion.
I do have to say that in my experience buying from both China and local (Europe) the European product are always of higher quality if you buy cheap, even if the country of origin was China in the first place. Since that is not always needed, you buy China, otherwise local.
You can ship a package in 3 days all across the EU for under 4€ with DHL. I know, because I’ve done so several times.
Stuff that’s small enough to fit in a letter even for 80ct across the entire EU in 2 days.
In fact, the domestic shipping market in the EU is actually cheaper than getting international parcels.
So a disclaimer to my original claim: applies only to a subset of European countries.
And so I shipped a bunch of HDDs from Germany to the Netherlands in 3 days for 3.40€
And if you’re a company, you get a ~90% discount even. The cost isn’t in shipping, but in the employees in the store picking up your package. Pre-Sorted packages delivered directly to a hub are really cheap.
so no, it's not Nil.
Very likely, it costs them less. Own citizens don’t drop their packages at cargo hubs, already sorted and payed for by wire transfer. Pickup, sorting and processing payments have costs.
Which is why DHL can offer prices such as 4€ for a cross-Europe 1kg 30x30x60 package.
Oh, you can't. Chinese living in China are not even allowed to buy Intel Xeon Phi cards, export license is required to safeguard your nation.
Maybe make the US short term visa more accessible to Chinese tourists so they can spend more cash in the US?
Oh, you can't. tens of millions Chinese with science/engineering degrees will have to go through the mantis check managed by FBI to make sure they won't steal your nuke techs when visiting the casinos in Vegas. It can take up to several years to get a US tourist visa.
Especially affected by this are cities known for quality products, for example Solingen, the city where most of modern high quality knives and scissors are from, is overran by chinese tourists.
And the other thing you mentioned also works here – we simply export lots of automation robots to China, e.g. Foxconn just made a deal with a German automation company to replace over 400'000 workers with robots.
Just to prove that your argument is not just valid, but actually proven in reality.
[0] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kuka-m-a-mideamidea-group-...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service#R...
There was some speculation at the time that this was a regulatory attempt to "tie their hands" on investments to address the online shopping market, which has more than offset the decline in carriage due to email. For example, during the 10 year period covered by the pre-funding obligation, UPS managed to increase revenues on domestic shipping by ~45%. [1]
Excluding these mandatory payments, the USPS is actually slightly profitable, to the tune of (conservatively) $92M as of 2015 [2]. In this context, a $79M loss is a major portion of their annual profits, although still a drop in the bucket compared to their gross revenue.
[0]: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr6407/text
[1]: http://www.investors.ups.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=62900&p=irol-re...
[2]: https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/financials/annual-reports/...
Interestingly, this volume of shipping offers chances as well for (former) national postal services. In the Netherlands the privatised former national postal service is partnering with AliBaba to deliver goods in as little as two weeks from China to your (Dutch) doorstep (currently three to four weeks is common).
1: http://fortune.com/2015/03/11/united-nations-subsidy-chinese...
Small items can be a fraction of the cost of the freight from the US.
A typical ePacket is about 7 to 14 days from shipment, while first class mail is generally about 3 days from shipment. China Post is worse, anywhere from 30 to 60 days is common. Yanwen economic mail is similar, as are the litany of other carriers used to exploit shipping restrictions on batteries and other items.
Is it a great model? Maybe not, especially for more expensive items. But for low cost, low value items shipped only via china post, there will always be a US based box-shifter willing to collect that 20% premium on time.
Why? Am I missing something here?
I have won a few at a dollar or lower and always received the item. so I have to assume there is no real ship cost to the sender. even the packaging if done here would cost more than what I have paid; usually custom styrofoam that perfectly encloses the item but just remove tape and it opens.
Considering their dollar a package deal with Amazon for last mile I figure they have many ways to lose money
Wait a minute... This argument doesn't make any sense. The post office is delivering to a US citizen that supports said postal services through paying taxes. If they choose to purchase from China, Amazon, or eBay that is their choice.
Maybe people who are not citizens and have not paid any taxes benefit from this but I suspect those are extreme edge cases.
Yes, they are indicated in the Constitution, and they must service each and every little town, and they must go to Congress to gain approval for rate increases, but they are not supported by any tax revenue.
https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-facts/top-10-things...
In a way, that makes the original complaint even more ridiculous because it is literally a business transaction between two private entities and a private intermediary.
http://fortune.com/2015/03/27/us-postal-service/
http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2013/jul/24/ame...
Still sound bad?
USPS revenue yearly is over 70 billion aka a thousand times more. Their problem is the six billion accrual of unpaid mandatory retiree health payments. 80M is irrevelant.
I understand it's not correct at all. But I can internally justify why people type "1$" when they're thinking "one dollar".
For foreigners, that's easy, that's how you write currencies in other languages.
For American doing it, I guess it is just a typing artefact. You think "ten dollars", you write "10$", there is no autocorrect for that kind of things so you let is slide.
Surely you're joking and I'm bad at picking up on satire.
First, this particular scenario is exactly the other way around! By not doing this, every single consumer pays a lot more than they otherwise would so that this one guy's obsolete middle-man business model is protected. Why the hell should we all be chipping in to insulate his comfy middle class lifestyle from global markets? Especially when his business model already depends on offshoring manufacturing jobs anyways... protecting this guy's job is an extremely weird place to draw the line in the sand!
Second, this case is particularly egregious. I literally don't know a single tax payer who doesn't need iPhone or USB-C cables. And a lot of non-tax payers even have a smartphone.
A smartphone is the single greatest expense for many extremely poor people, who use their second hand phones to apply for jobs, keep in contact with family, google homework questions, as a calculator, find services, etc.
> The least fortunate will not always be the greatest beneficiaries of the subsidy.
Anecdata time.
There's an on-and-off homeless guy in our neighborhood who has a phone he uses to find places to eat/sleep, apply for jobs (getting to a physical location across the city is expensive -- better to apply online), find bus routes to job interviews, and make small change doing surveys/selling good stuff he finds on the curb during university move-out/finding random yard work on Craigslist/etc. And also, of course, for free entertainment. He doesn't even have a data plan -- he bums wifi off the local coffee shop. A smartphone is a computer that he can conceal and keep close to his chest when sleeping in the park or a shelter.
Thousands of homeless folk definitely benefit from cheap iPhone/USB cables, from cheap smartphones, etc.
You could make the argument that while the costs of the goods are now lower and consumer surplus goes to most americans, they're out-competing US made products, that would generate wages for the worst off. Then you'd be arguing for protectionism though.
(Of course these peering agreements come from a postal union treaty rather that individual 1:1 agreements among private parties, but really they are the same thing).
The number of routes is small enough that there's no need for postal BGP :-)
Does anyone know how to stop junkmail? Postal workers have told me they can't not deliver it - even if you pay for a PO Box.
Is recommended by the FTC.
Allow USPS to raise their prices?
It's the vast majority of mail and keeps the USPS in business. I guess we could ban it and jack the price of stamps way up, but I have a feeling that would be unpopular.
$79M is governmental chickenfeed, given how much this service improves the quality of life of its citizens. For perspective, it's moderately less than the cost of one (1) F35.
That said - again, you're quite right that we're getting a lot more for our money spent with USPS. Surely there have to be less expensive and more worthwhile ways, than the F-35 project, to run a jobs program!
The government has already been trying to do everything they can to run the USPS into the ground, something needs to be done about these treaty deliveries or a continual increase in volume is going to harm the postal service (I don't know what that something looks like, maybe make the federal government pay the cost difference for these treaty deliveries since the postal service is required to deliver them).