MIT’s gas-powered drone is able to stay in the air for five days at a time
techcrunch.com
techcrunch.com
And then I thought: why is that a joke? Could you save fuel keeping it aloft with a lighter than air gas and just use the fuel to move it around?
I guess another way to phrase the question would be: why don't they use dirigibles to solve extended air time problems?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEREON_26
[2] https://www.amazon.com/Deltoid-Pumpkin-Seed-John-McPhee/dp/0...
http://mashable.com/2017/05/24/airlander-butt-plane-successf...
There's actually been more than one of these types of aircraft (known as Lighter Than Air - or LTA Aircraft), either as an idea or prototype throughout history.
[0] http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lockheed-martin-aircra... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_P-791
Is it not possible to have a modern airship with hydrogen as its primary lifting agent?
Air is about 1.2kg/m^3 at STP, so that's the theoretical maximum you can lift with a cubic meter of gas bag. (And you can only get that value if you could somehow hold a vacuum, of course.)
Hydrogen is about 0.09kg/m^3 at STP, so you can lift about 1.1kg/m^3. Helium is about 0.18kg/m^3, so you can lift about 1kg/m^3. Helium is twice as dense, but that only costs you about 10% of your lifting power since both are so light compared to air.
I see no reason you couldn't use hydrogen, but I don't know if anyone would want to take the risk. (Specific flaws of the Hindenburg aside, hydrogen is explosive across a distressingly wide range of mixture ratios with air.) If you did use hydrogen, I think the main motivation would be avoiding the use of scarce helium, not the minor increase in lift capacity.
I'm not sure of what its behavior would be with all its air sucked out, though.
Filling it with helium at ambient pressure wouldn't produce nearly enough lift, and increasing the pressure would make it heavier, not lighter. What's needed is not mass, but volume.
If what's bugging you is why lighter-than-air vehicles aren't used for commercial transportation, that's an entirely different issue.
But short flight times don't really have to be the case, because it seems that they can fly for extended periods of time: one of NASA's balloons stayed up for 46 days [0]. The US air force also uses balloons as surveillance stations, though I don't know the actual flight time of these [1][2]. JLENS was supposed to stay up for 30 days at a time.
[0]: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/wallops/news/supertiger-record....
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethered_Aerostat_Radar_System
I want a steampunk blimp ok? There. You made me say it.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/girlgeniusadventures.com/2013...
And before that, I believe surveillance blimps have been used in some form or another since the 19th century.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/10/28...
Hydrogen has this nasty habit of being extremely flammable.
Rigid or semi-rigid airships when scaled up are really difficult to moor and arrange ground handling for, which is why some of the recent prototypes that have been flown integrate skirts and reverse-hovercraft like suction apparatus that can hold them down on a flat field.
The empire state building was originally intended as a Zeppelin mooring location, but the plan was abandoned due to wind and inability to control a zeppelin to that level of precision.
Hot air balloons adjust altitude by heating the helium inside the balloon and letting it cool back down as appropriate. You would need a similar mechanism, but in much smaller format.
they are open by design, unlike dirigibles. hot air balloons increase altitude by adding more hot air via a burner, and decrease altitude by letting the air diffuse out through holes in the top of the balloon.
I don't know if it is still available or not, or whether anyone ever added remote controls to it...
Hmm - apparently it or something similar is still available - or you can try to build one yourself:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Solar-Heated-Balloon/
But suppose you change altitude to find favorable winds? That's what Project Loon is doing: https://x.company/loon/
I also am not sure that would be much safer than using hydrogen. Methane ignites a bit harder and would initially burn a lot slower (hydrogen has a much higher upper explosive limit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit), so it would need to disperse more for the gas at the center of the balloon to ignite), but _any_ fire near the surface of the balloon eventually would be catastrophic, and putting fire extinguishers everywhere isn't an option because of their weight, in combination with the huge area of your balloon)
Quite the understatement. I'd describe them as apocalyptically unsafe, seeing as many designs literally exhausted nuclear fallout.[1]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Nuclear_Propulsion#Di...
A direct cycle design (which is the only one that was ever thought practical to use) passes outside air through the core for cooling purposes, then sends it through the exhaust.
> Indirect cycling involves thermal exchange outside of the core. The compressor air would be sent to a heat exchanger. The nuclear reactor core would heat up pressurized water or liquid metal and send it to the heat exchanger as well. That hot liquid would be cooled by the air; the air would be heated by the liquid and sent to the turbine. The turbine would send the air out the exhaust, providing thrust.
An indirect cycle design doesn't expose outside air to the core, but "never came anywhere near producing flight-ready hardware", presumably because the amount of water needed for cooling would have required an absurdly large plane and even more power, leading to recursive issues.
The thing is, even if you got the system small enough (lightbulb reactor or otherwise), you'd have one hell of a time with cooling. It works with rockets because they need to dump massive amounts of heat into propellant and generate a lot more thrust with it but airplanes fly slower and generate force through lift. If the money were there though, using something like the lightbulb for synthetic jet fuel could massively change their environmental impact.
Has anybody thought through the engineering of those silica reaction vessels (I haven't searched)? I don't think it can work.
If I understand the concept shown in the Wikipedia page, it depends on uranium hexafluoride operating at 25,000°C in fused silica containers which transmit hard UV that heats hydrogen external to the silica containers and is exhausted through nozzles, propelling the vehicle.
Silica has very poor thermal conductivity, which means it can't be cooled readily by conduction. This means that the inner container wall will melt even if the outer wall coolant is liquid hydrogen because the wall material can't transport the heat flux. One might be able to keep a 10µm silica shell from melting, but nothing thicker. Too thin to be mechanically sound.
Also, the uranium hex will be completely dissociated and ionized at 25K°C. This means the inner silica wall will be exposed to atomic fluorine, and will corrode away immediately. Uranium at 25k°C probably reacts with SiO2, but I don't know that. Uranium silicides and oxides are known compounds, so it's likely. It's a horrific corrosion environment. At temperatures like this, everything reacts with everything else.
In short, this nuclear lightbulb can't be built with any material we currently know of. We'll have to wait for Scotty's transparent aluminum.
Perhaps the MIT drone could use a Stirling engine with a Pu238 RTG heat source and air as the working fluid. If so, it could stay up forever. I'd bet on that before the nuclear light bulb.
Radioisotope thermoelectric generators only output something like 250W up to a max of 600W. Not nearly enough for sustained flight of something this size. Also, if you think the licensing and permitting process is hard for a regular drone, take a look at the amount of paperwork and security related to all of the RTG powered spacecraft/probes launched in the last 30 years. Pu238 is, to put it mildly, a somewhat controlled substance.
Which size? Why? Human powered airplanes exist. Max sustained human output is around 400W. Are RTGs significantly heavier than humans?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHW-RTG [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPHS-RTG
Make the design large enough with a low enough pressure, and it sounds like you could make the heat flux manageable. The boundary layer will also protect the quartz from the atomic effects of the uranium ions - they will cool and recombine before reaching the quartz.
The hydrogen side will want much higher pressure (to be able to absorb enough UV, since a UV reflector sounds hard to cool)
Assuming the biggest transfer of energy in the hydrogen and uranium gasses will be convective, so making the quartz spin you could use the higher density of cool uranium gas to keep your quartz cool. The hydrogen side is flowing, so as long as you keep the flow laminar, one can use a cold boundary layer again.
The boundary layer is actually neon, which is injected to form an irrotational vortex (the opposite of a tornado) that pushes everything to the center at high pressures.
> If I understand the concept shown in the Wikipedia page, it depends on uranium hexafluoride operating at 25,000°C in fused silica containers which transmit hard UV that heats hydrogen external to the silica containers and is exhausted through nozzles, propelling the vehicle.
> Silica has very poor thermal conductivity, which means it can't be cooled readily by conduction. This means that the inner container wall will melt even if the outer wall coolant is liquid hydrogen because the wall material can't transport the heat flux. One might be able to keep a 10µm silica shell from melting, but nothing thicker. Too thin to be mechanically sound.
The wikipedia article is actually pretty terrible when it comes to the specifics, as if whoever wrote it just read the abstract of one paper (there were at least 50 IIRC). They used fused silica in the early proof of concept (without nuclear fuel) because they were still proving the basics like the irrotational vortex injectors and compression of the core. The technology for making extremely pure single crystal beryllium oxide has since been developed and has found commercial applications, especially in aerospace and semiconductors. Single crystal BeO has far better thermal conductivity and UV transparency, making it possible to cool the reactor walls fast enough.
The bigger problem is neutron bombardment which rapidly degrades the containment chamber's transparency and without replacing the neon with water (impossible), there's no way to counteract that. However, since the reactor is so easy to shut down (stop injecting neon and open the exhaust vents), even weekly or monthly replacements become economically feasible. All of the equipment needed for it are already part of the design (centrifuges for separation of the gas + fuel, modular reactor instead of solid piece of steel/concrete, etc.). The nuclear lightbulb design is unique because all of the other factors that make classic nuclear fission so expensive are eliminated (redundancies of active safety measures, meltdown-proof shielding, etc.) so there's a lot more money to spend on the actual operation and maintenance of the reactor.
Furthermore: the program was canceled before they started the research but they had plans to investigate ways of generating power from the reactor through magnetohydrodynamics instead of turbines/photovoltaics. The whole field was still in its infancy at that point but they had some ideas to test that would have replaced the transparent containment vessel with much stronger (and cheaper) reflective material, eliminating the hardest part of the design.
> Also, the uranium hex will be completely dissociated and ionized at 25K°C. This means the inner silica wall will be exposed to atomic fluorine, and will corrode away immediately. Uranium at 25k°C probably reacts with SiO2, but I don't know that. Uranium silicides and oxides are known compounds, so it's likely. It's a horrific corrosion environment. At temperatures like this, everything reacts with everything else.
The pressure applied on the core is (if I remember correctly) in the hundreds of atmospheres, if not thousands, with an absurd angular momentum. The vast, vast majority of particles that are shaved off of the core cool extremely quickly and are either sucked out or pushed back into the core. Any corrosion feeds into the above maintenance schedule and there was some discussion about seeding the neon with other elements to moderate chemical reactions.
If you can access them, I highly recommend reading at least the big summary paper. All of these problems were discussed, many were even tested, and solutions were found that require technology we have developed by now. All of the problems you brought up were at the top of their minds because they were designing the nuclear lightbulb primarily as a rocket engine where maintenance would have been impossible.
Gasoline: 12,889 Wh/kilogram
Diesel: 13,333 Wh/kilogram
Lithium Ion battery: Ranges from 100 to 243 Wh/kilogram.
Even when you consider that something like 50% of the energy in gasoline is lost to waste heat in a typical internal combustion engine, it's still a huge difference.
Diesel: 35.8 MJ/L
Hydrogen: 9.17 MJ/L at 700 bar (10,000 psi).
It will require a tank of 4x the volume for the same energy which comes with many additional challenges. Plus, a tank that can withstand 700 bar will have to be extremely strong and heavy which hurts your energy/mass ratio.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Energy_densitie...
GTFY (generalized that for you). ;)
It's all about the energy in that carbon-hydrogen bond. Lipids have a similar energy density, which is why migrating birds have a similar nonstop range as fossil fueled airplanes (11,000 km vs 14,000 km for the 747 long range variant).
Fat has an energy density of 37 kJ/g
Diesel: 48 kJ/g
Lithium Ion: 0.8 kJ/g
Not sure a tiny biodiesel internal combustion engine is a very suitable power source for laptops, though. :-)
Exists. Stop disguising your nostalgia as future entusiasm :D
Voyager also needed a long runway for launch and probably costs vastly more than this drone. Its use case as an emergency communication device is revolutionary.
(That's a problem statement, not an ad.)
The watthours per amount of hydrogen stored are ridiculous, but as giant scale photovoltaic becomes commonplace, it might be possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photovoltaic_power_sta...
Cover a 20 x 20 km section of Libyan desert with ground mount 360W PV panels, there's your power source.
Sure, but first you need to find a desert in a relatively stable country, and then you have to account for the fact that the panels will need to be cleaned.
UAE is building lots of solar, if you've been through DXB or AUH you've probably seen the Total [0] ads for solar. However I know from personal experience that even in the desert you need to have methods to clean the panels or they will be covered in dust/sand after some time, and this significantly reduces their output. [1]
[1]: http://www.airforce-technology.com/features/featurethe-top-1...
They claim that solar efficiency is not there yet, but look at the NASA Helios. Yes, it's large, but such is life if you want solar. The math behind it is incredibly simple.
Yet, as usual, HN is foaming at the mouth because it has the word drone in the title.
Edit: this is just another MIT fluff piece. Watch the video, it's a carbon fiber tube filled with random COTS hobby grade components. With a hot wire and some composites knowledge you could make this in your garage.
There's a weight runaway that occurs with solar powered aircraft, look at Fig 12 in this report: http://hoburg.mit.edu/publications/gassolar.pdf
Disclaimer: I worked on this project, so am super biased.
Edit: just got a chance to look at the report. Thanks for the link, there are some really interesting findings in there.
Could you kindly reply with your email, as I would like to email you. I am a crank inventor (no but keep reading, just three and a half more paragraphs!) who has invented something similar to a free-energy machine, except in the field of aviation and specifically renewable energy flight, where free power is in the skies for anyone so it's not totally cranky. After all you just wrote a 27-page draft about it. (By the way your paper is very solid and prominently describes in detail several trade-offs that I address specifically through a different mechanism; you are the real deal.)
I would like to work with a collaborator (such as yourself) and then patent and license the technology. Specialist patent offices I contacted said that they would have a conflict with their existing large clients Boeing etc, and for this reason cannot work with me.
On the other hand if they do not have this experience it is kind of a catch-22. Your personal resources and if appropriate (if it works) your resources at MIT would alleviate this issue.
We can discuss the rest by email. I look forward to your reply. It will not take much of your time to make a determination. I promise it will be interesting and well-specified (usually crank inventors misuse common terminology, don't correctly understand the principles they use, and are vague and underspecified, committing logical errors and non-sequiturs to arrive at their mechanism - this isn't like that.) Thank you!
Show a prototype working, or people will (usually correctly) assume you're a scam or a kook.
What is the general range of weight vs power levels are you producing with your device (that wouldn't reveal anything about the tech, only what sort of craft it might suit)?
What is the range of scales at which this device will work (what is the smallest, largest, optimum range for the device)?
also incredibly fragile, with regards to crosswinds and takeoff/landing environmental conditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Prototype#/media/File:P...
Helios disintegrates as it falls towards the Pacific
edit: weather
Is there a good repo for all of the US Govts challenges/requests (e.g. DARPA ones + others like USAF?)
I was quick to look up how long The Spirit Of Butts' Farm [0] was in the sky for, only 36 hours.
In 5 days, assuming MIT's model held a similar speed, it could probably circumnavigate the globe.
[0] http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0805_020805_...
Why do these press releases always include the most farfetched goals?
A 5 day duration manually operated drone is clearly not going to provide long term service.
There are a few companies out there playing with what are nothing more than ridiculously expensive toy RC planes (< 6 ft wingspan) that almost anyone could build out of parts available in the open market.
This MIT thing is nothing less than an overgrown model airplane. It uses what looks like a stock 4 stroke model airplane engine with a stock model airplane propeller. It probably uses stock model airplane servos, electronics and 2.4 GHz TX/RX.
Oh, wait, advanced materials. Nope. I have been designing and building RC airplanes as a hobby for three decades. I was vacuum-bagging large (12 foot wingspan) glider wings from fiberglass, carbon fiber and also Kevlar twenty years ago. I still have and use my vacuum bagging setup to build planes today. I have also made custom carbon fiber propellers by CNC machining aluminum molds and stuffing them with epoxy impregnated carbon fiber rovings.
So, this is what I would call "advanced hobby" stuff.
Special airfoils? Nah. Any serious RC glider pilot who has built planes knows what airfoils to use. Not a secret. These guys didn't do anything special on that front.
Oh, but it can be taken apart and stuffed into a box for FedEx shipping. Guess what, so can any large scale RC glider. Nothing new there. Make the wing in six foot sections and you are golden.
Yeah but...
Yeah but nothing.
Here's a guy flying an OFF THE SHELF 6 meter wingspan RC glider. What do you think the wings are made from?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3xxjqpIRNg
That's nearly 20 feet. The MIT "drone" has a 24 foot wingspan.
Here's another guy flying a 6.5 m, 21 ft motorized glider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_U_e_EEduo
Replace the electric motor with an internal combustion engine and a fuel tank and bingo. Again, off the shelf.
And here are a BUNCH of guys with huge gliders, powered and not, including one that has a 51 FOOT wingspan. And, look, no truck for launch, they use another large scale RC airplane to tow it up to altitude.
Here's a list of a bunch of large scale RC sailplanes you can buy off the shelf today.
https://www.scalesoaring.com/scale-sailplanes
Here's an 8 to 8.8 meter (~26 to 27 ft) DG 1000 S you can buy and build for about $5,000 Euro:
https://www.paritech.de/content/modelle/dg1000.php
Shame on MIT for being a part of a scam. It's embarrassing.
From the original press-release:
>Hansman and Hoburg worked with MIT students to design a long-duration UAV as part of a Beaver Works capstone project — typically a two- or three-semester course that allows MIT students to design a vehicle that meets certain mission specifications, and to build and test their design.
Obviously a bunch of undergrads aren't going to design a revolutionary new airplane.
No problem with any of this except their use of tax money to fund it.
If they need a capstone project they can pay for it themselves. Don't create a bullshit grant for something that will not be delivered. I mean, a five minute napkin calculation would quickly reveal the solar-whatever idea was nonsense. They still took the money and built exactly what the Air Force did not ask for. That's wrong in more ways than one.
Now, seriously, allow me to doubt that flying some 2 minutes a plane (model or not) that has (or has the possibility to carry) on board five days worth of fuel actually means that the engine is capable of reliably running 5 days no-stop.
Is there actually a need for so many robots? Even if there is, is the market big enough to make economical sense? It seems like it's just an easy thing to imagine when you can't think of a real purpose for your robot.
Not exactly; the (now subcabinet) Department of the Army used to be called the (cabinet level) War Department. The Department of the Navy used to be its own cabinet-level Department. Then a new cabinet level Defense Department was formed, the Air Force split out of the Army and made co-equal, and each of the three (two before the split) service departments made subordinate to the new Defense Department.
I hope these college kids are bright enough to recognize that they are building killing machines unlike anything warfare has seen before.
See 28 USC Sec. 1498(a) regarding patents, and Sec. 1498(b) regarding copyrights.
It looks like you would need to have a patent. If you manage to create a magic battery and you keep the manufacturing process a trade secret, then you could disallow government use of your work. Is that correct? They'd obviously be able to attempt to reverse-engineer your product, of course.
This got me wondering. Could they force someone to provide them with a license due to extreme circumstances? e.g. Time of war, magic battery can help us win.
> Could they force someone to provide them with a license due to extreme circumstances?
Basically, the cited section amounts to a blanket delegation by Congress to the executive branch of the right to use patents without license, with eminent domain-like compensation after the fact for the taking. So there's no need for a particular justification, or a license.
You will get paid, it's not confiscation, but it is an offer you cannot refuse.
I'd be surprised if the situation isn't the same in every other country -- national security/defense takes a very high priority. Moreover, any truly revolutionary technology that could create a significant military advantage will be almost required to be controlled by the mil, lest the adversaries get it.
If you don't want to ever be in a situation where you could help the military of your country, you probably need to move to a country without a military. Then worry about other countries deciding to invade for your revolutionary technology.
The cult of ground knows that a pious individual stands on 2 feet.
Hellfires are relatively light, but I believe they're way too heavy - they're about twice the drone's own weight.
I'm kind of skeptical about military use, except for possible reconnaissance.
And for what it's worth, we've been inventing efficient ways to kill people since day 1, and the people who invent those things tend to fare much better than those who don't.