Hacker News Reader

Comment by TekMol | Hacker News Reader

My feeling is that I read stories like these pretty often. That somebody was denied entry or arrested or humiliated while entering the USA. Is this because it happens more often in the USA then in other countries? Or is there some kind of reporting bias at play?

View on HN

It's not just the US, this one last year was big news: https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4

I suspect there are a few confounding factors. Firstly, lots of non-residents travel to tech conferences in the US. This gives them a wider pool of people to reject. My personal experience is that US-Americans are underrepresented at conferences in other places. They're by no means absent, but it feels off to me.

I do think that even controlling for that it happens more in the US than other countries, though. Of my colleagues who travel a lot I don't know anyone who's had trouble at a border other than the US.

>Of my colleagues who travel a lot I don't know anyone who's had trouble at a border other than the US

Also my experience. In a massive country like the US it's easy to get irate about individual cases like this but also important to acknowledge that in general it works pretty well. I know of more cases in other countries of this happening (including to myself) than the US.

Now in general they treat people like shit at the border. These are not just some cases.

Actually, they treat their own people like shit too, see the security lines at airports during the summer (O'Hare I hate you).

There is a reporting selection factor: this is happening to "tech people", including white middleclass people from the rest of the West who aren't used to being treated like second-class non-citizens or being victims of a bureaucracy they can't appeal against.

This was at his local airport in Sweden. To quote some tweets:

"They denied me entry on ESTA with no explanation. Already at check-in in Sweden. =( or rather instead of check-in"

"I only got to the airport locally. My passport was flagged somehow so the airline wouldn't let me check in, called to ask why... So they say"

Edit: ESTA is this: https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/

So the DHS denied him for some reason.

but when you apply for an ESTA you get told you've been 'approved' - you use this as a basis for booking a flight and travelling, if they're going to take it back without telling you (they have your email address) that really sucks, kind of passive aggressive

> but when you apply for an ESTA you get told you've been 'approved'

FWIW, the last esta before the current one was not immediately approved for me. I did however get a mail after a while that it was approved and i get consistently mailed a month before it expires.

They don't seem to do the check when you apply. Years ago I fat-fingered my passport number, the ESTA went through fine, but I was refused at the airport due to my typo.

I had to make a new one on the spot, was no problem, but it seems that they will just approve the ESTA when applying for it, and then later refuse you if they want.

It'd be very funny if all of this boils down to him having a typo entering his info.

They sometimes check. My last two ESTA renewals took 1 day because of some manual checks. Went through in the end. Know others who had the same experience so I guess they are performing some background checks.

So the lesson is apply for ESTA as late as possible?

ESTA does not tell you you're "approved" -- it simply tells you whether or not you are in one of the eligible populations for visa-free entry to the US. Nothing in ESTA guarantees you'll be allowed into the US, or even to board your plane.

It literally tells you

> Your travel authorization has been approved and you are authorized to travel to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program.

It then goes on to say (but this is the same for visas as well):

> This does not guarantee admission to the United States; a Customs and Border protection (CBP) officer at a port of entry will have the final determination.

I'm not disagreeing that the web page says that. But what it says is terrible inaccurate wording. ESTA simply determines whether you're someone who is, in general, eligible for visa-free travel (which is primarily determined by your country of citizenship -- everything else involved in ESTA is secondary to that). It doesn't grant a visa or guarantee anything about being allowed in.

Australia uses an almost-identical system (IIRC the US one is based on Australia's).

But what the web page says is exactly what the parent comment complained about. Saying "you are free to travel" and then, without notifying you, deny you boarding is not a nice thing to do (even if it happens for a very valid reason). It just shows the careless attitude of whoever designed that system.

You are saying: "But the webpage said this!"

I am saying: "I agree with you that the webpage said this. The webpage should not say that, because that is not accurate or useful."

In your pursuit of antagonizing someone who agreed with you, you have now devolved into trying to nitpick details of a program you clearly don't actually understand, so I'd suggest you just accept that when I said I agreed with you that the wording was bad I did in fact mean it, and stop now.

Not accurate or useful would be an apt description of your comments here.

An ESTA can be denied and there are checks in place. The approval process can sometimes take a day or more. So it's not just checking if you are eligible, they also determine if they assume that you would be granted entry to the country. Since it's valid for 2 years there can obviously be changes after you've been granted the ESTA.

The whole ESTA application system is horrid.

If your approval isn't immediate (mine wasn't) then you have to keep checking back to see if/when it gets approved - they don't email you.

It's a bias (not sure how it's called, maybe a type of "survivor bias")

You don't hear about the thousands admitted without an issue in the US every day. But of course those that aren't admitted show up here

May I also note some (tech people) display an increased level of naiveté in dealing with border people.

You don't hear about the thousands admitted without an issue in the US every day. But of course those that aren't admitted show up here

Yes, but that bias applies to every country, it doesn't justify the US bias of these reports.

Correct, even a small percentage is indicative of an issue

But you also don't hear from the people who decided not even to try to go to the US, and thus didn't get refused either. That's me since over a decade ago: the US doesn't get my tourist dollars, and gets fewer of my business dollars, as a consequence.

I guess its both.

Newsworthy people visit the USA more often than other countries due the concentration of a lot of companies and conferences. So, I believe denial of entry happens more often than in other countries.

But, there is also the running trend of focusing on bad/silly things happening in the USA.

To be honest, my experience is that US border checks are very aggressive (like, passive aggression and suspicion is the default attitude). I've seen worse, but my last entrance into the US (in 2012) featured barking sniffer dogs and open distrust – and I'm a white middle class European traveling from a European country. Don't get this much in other places.

While we're sharing anecdotes, I flew into JFK several times around 2013-2014 and experienced only quick and friendly border security agents.

The border agents themselves were friendly enough to put up with my cranky self and the screaming kid after a 10 hour flight. The rest of that airport is a complete disaster, compared to places like Schiphol. This especially concerns the rest of the menially-paid staff that are supposed to help you through the airport.

I would say there is no passivity at all. It is aggressive plain and simple. I’ve gone through a few times in 5 years and it’s getting worse and worse.

I won’t be returning.

The US border is awful for travellers. I'm Australian, so a very friendly nation, and it sucks every time. Much worse than borders in Europe or Asia.

I refuse to travel to the states these days whether for work or pleasure. The fact that it seems to be getting worse rather than better is very worrying.

I have Global Entry so I don't interact with US customs officers aside from waving a receipt at them on my way out of the immigration hall. So I don't have experience of them. But my personal worst stories of border crossings all involve either Canada or Germany, for what it's worth. Canada's CBSA in particular seem to revel in it, yelling at you for asking a question, yelling at you for doing what they told you to do, and just plain yelling at you.

well you just described the US borders for the rest of us.

I'm anglo-australian, I have had only good experiences with the staff, regular traveller over ten years. Some shocking queues and missed connections. US has a policy of putting you through customs even if you are doing an international transfer. But border personnel themselves consistently good.

Every time I have flown to the US the border/passport guards have been polite and friendly. I'm a white, 40+ Brit with family. YMMV.

Staff have generally been friendly yes, with the process sometimes quick, sometimes slow, as anywhere. Customs and Immigration are not there as an alternative comedy store anywhere in the world.

But it's been friendly with bags searched nearly every damn time, and the clear implication that I am a threat.

I am a white middle class male with nothing against the US (and indeed a long time working for a US flagship company), but I am clearly unwelcome.

So I simply don't attempt to go any more.

> Customs and Immigration are not there as an alternative comedy store anywhere in the world.

I participated in a student exchange program that traveled to Russia the summer after the USSR became the CIS. At the end of that trip, we took a buss from St. Petersburg to Helsinki, which required a passing through customs on each side of the border back-to-back.

Exit customs on the Russian side were what you would expect. The group leaders carefully warned us to be quiet/polite/no-jokes, have your passport/visa in hand, etc. It was a polite but very strict situation that created a small but persistent nervousness.

After the very-brief drive to the Finnish side, the customs official that boarded our buss to take the group's passports noticed this nervousness, paused briefly with a laugh, and said to our buss full of students, "Don't worry! You're not in Russia anymore! You can laugh!"

In the spirit of balanced anecdata, I've flown to the US about 10 times in the last 2-3 years on business and pleasure. Multiple airports and it has always been efficient and friendly.

Adding mine. I traveled to US three times, each time the border check was unpleasant.

I don't get it why they can't just do a passport check and be gone with it like the do in EU?

What's the point of the questions, last time they event wanted me to show them my return airline tickets (why? If I wanted to stay illegally I could have created those easily).

And the queues, after a long flight, the last thing you want it to stand in those long queues and waiting for hours to get to the hotel.

BTW. I'm white, but from Central Europe (Poland) - but why would I want to stay illegally in SF or Dallas when there are cheaper places with more Poles.

> But, there is also the running trend of focusing on bad/silly things happening in the USA.

This is a silly thing if you never travel, but if you travel abroad you realize that most borders are friendly except for a few countries (and the US is on top of the list for worst borders imo)

> Or is there some kind of reporting bias at play?

No it is not, read the comments here to see that many people even on HN are impacted by the US borders in bad ways.

I guess a lot of people try to enter the US, some small proportion get rejected, and you hear about some small proportion of that. Overall you end up hearing several stories.

I hate to break it to you but take it from someone who has traveled all over the world to all sorts of weird regimes and through some crazy hairy checkpoints: the US has developed a major attitude problem in the past 20 years.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com