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Comment by agumonkey | Hacker News Reader

I don't listen to much electronic music, but I find no subtleties or sensitivity in what I hear.

I understand that dismissing the new for no other reason is useless but I just don't feel it.

Could it be that you're uneducated (which is fine, there's so much music produced nowadays that's hard to be educated in all niches) and listening to shitty electronic music that the mainstream industry is advertising endlessly to recycle the same formula again and again for cheap gains? Similar to shitty music like "The Archies - Sugar Sugar" or anything from The Ramones. There's an endless stream of shit music from all years and genres.

Don't expect subtleties from an industrial product, just like you wouldn't expect them from an apartment building (compared to art-chitecture).

As I said, electronic music is a medium, not a genre. You could listen to an electronic version of Bach's Toccata In D Minor played live by a virtuous pianist and it wouldn't lose subtlety or sensitivity due to the electronic process of sound synthesis. If done well, it could actually acquire new subtleties through timbre manipulation techniques.

Don't confuse medium and product.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EaHMq3Jg5E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkMt4GudJzg

Listen to those back to back and if you still find no subtleties or sensitivity go check a doctor ;) Now seriously, it's fine not to like them, but you have to concede these are very well done pieces of art.

How many people in the electronic genre could play Bach ? I mind no medium, no genre, nothing at all. If you give me something musical, even tapping on bamboo, or an old DX7 (see this demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3rrjQtQe5A, the pianos samples are dense, and the harmonies aren't dull) synth, I'd welcome it.

The link you gave are not bad, but they lack soul, feel, weight. It's a common thing in electronic music, sampled drumbeats, tiny vocals, steady and fragile melodic rhythm.

ps: other electronic sounds that I found a bit more telling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-k7QhOVl4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgGNZABDqZA

These two are simplistic but have a strong rhythmic backbone and are surprinsgly twisted at times https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4r_94EvDZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebjXsc0UjdQ

I'd love to keep on but I have to leave, I'll be back in an hour

I find your links completely soulless and unimaginative (mostly rehashing 80s black music) so to each their own I guess :) Not that I dislike them, they're just... plain (to me).

I really like Todd Terje, which you linked, but I wouldn't call it subtle in any way (it's just generic italo-disco updated to sound like 21st century dance music). It's something I'd play to dance on a night out, not to listen and enjoy as art.

> It's a common thing in electronic music, sampled drumbeats

Well, both links feature live drum beats so... ;) Amongst other instruments (Shpongle's flute is analog, Younger Brother features analog instruments both at the studio and live).

Here's Younger Brother rehearsing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIYH6SXdjE0

---

As I expected it's a matter of taste (as expected) more than medium.

I can see you like funk influenced music full of harmonic complexity. You might like some 70s electronic music I guess? Try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LF438wbUTI (Beaver & Krause, pioneers on electronic music). There are literally too many productions to chose from until I hit the key that tingles your own personal taste :P

We'll never agree but I'm glad we exchanged opinions (and I'll keep an eye on that Redinho guy!)

I do have very strong funk roots, but I've walked extensively into prog, fusion, and recently classical music (which any sophisticated piece of jazz and fusion will go into once they leave the groove sections a bit aside).

Terje beat is subtle, other than that it's as simple as it can get.

It does influence my needs though, Funk, and Jazz have a swing, a tension that I often need in music, unless it's displaced by classical crescendos.

ps: I wonder if Redinho peaked on his first album, I expected more things to come since but .. anyway.

pps: I'll have to relisten to younger brother now

Have you tried Floating Points? "Eleania" is a beautiful, rather quiet electronic / jazz mixture and one of my favorite albums in recent years:

- https://floatingpointsluakabop.bandcamp.com/album/elaenia

- https://www.discogs.com/Floating-Points-Elaenia/master/90855...

Another suggestion is Azymuth, a brazilian cult band that blends funk, latin, fusion and electronic music. They have a very long discography but their most recent album is a very good starting point:

- https://azymuth.bandcamp.com/album/f-nix

- https://www.discogs.com/Azymuth-F%C3%AAnix/master/1094986

Let's stay in brazil: Music From Memory, a fantastic re-issue label, recently released a fantastic compilation that collects brazilian electronic, avant-garde music from the late 70s to early 90s. It's more on the experimental, difficult end of the spectrum but very rewarding with repeated listenings:

- https://music-from-memory.bandcamp.com/album/outro-tempo-ele...

- https://www.discogs.com/Various-Outro-Tempo-Electronic-And-C...

> How many people in the electronic genre could play Bach ?

More than you might think. Some, like Isao Tomita, built their careers on electronic versions of classical music, including Bach in Tomita's case (though I don't care much for his adaptations). Others, but many others, like Jean-Michel Jarre has an education in classical music, and took a long time to "break free" from classical formats in his composition.

Tomita's style is so weird. I didn't know about him until your comment. He seems into pure rendering of classical style in other instruments. But I miss something, it's too precise or constricted.

> it's too precise or constricted

What do you expect from Western classical music? ;)

Ah come on, don't tell me chopin prelude 28 is constricted :)

Maybe Chopin was the last of the western classical music (I'm not that knowledgeable on this)

Yes, Tomita is pretty strange. His rendition of Bolero is perhaps the most stereotypical Tomita you can find [1].

I tend to prefer electronic music that is relatively melodic but at the same time uses electronic instruments to do effects you can't easily do with analog instruments, e.g. like these, which are synth "classics":

* Jarre: Oxygene II: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD4KMp22jBg

* Jarre: Arpegiator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzAui_gcdhM

At the same time as they play with the synth capabilities of the time, they show Jarre's classical background - more so if you see the scores, and just how structured they are (especially if you look at a whole album; especially his earlier albums were thematically consistent, with very structured progressions from piece to piece).

For music that spans the genres, this is one of my all time favourites: [2] Final Rendez Vous (Ron's Piece), also by Jarre, which mixes electronic music with sax.

It was meant to be played for Jarre's Houston concert by Ron McNair while in space. He was due up on Challenger. The concert was almost called off, but people from NASA convinced Jarre to go ahead with it, and it's taken on an extra dimension beyond the already haunting melody...

On the complete opposite end of the spectrum, on the other hand, I also have a soft spot for chiptunes - 8 bit game and demo music, which ranges from trying to emulate classical music, but which are often very inaccessible if you don't know the technical constraints, to going all out with doing weird stuff with the available hardware.

So to give you a taste of something quite different from most modern electronic music:

E.g. this is one of the great triumphs in simulating real instruments on a Commodore 64 [3] (Monty on the Run, by Rob Hubbard). I won't be surprised if you're not impressed, but look at the oscilloscope and consider that it's three voices made on an 8-bit home computer.

Or this "album length" set of tracks from Last Ninja [4]... Both of these are constrained by hardware to 3 voices, no proper samples (sine, triangle, square waves and noise, with some added pulse modulation and lots of dirty tricks).

It does take some effort to look past the tinny sound and limited "instrument", and is probably a greatly acquired taste given that I grew up with it.

But to take two more: Lightforce (C64), by Rob Hubbard [5]. One of the pieces that probably sold more copies of the game than the gameplay did (the game itself was shit), yet which exhibits a lot of similar geometric progressions that the first two Jarre pieces do.

Which brings me to one of the most interesting game music compositions of the era:

Delta (also Rob Hubbard) [6]. It's not really casual listening, but it is extremely fascinating to meditate on. You can really see the limitations in that oscilloscope view: Those are what the other pieces have to work with, stripped bare. In most of the other pieces the composer has worked hard to try to bend it into a richer sound (and sometimes succeeded surprisingly well, like in the case of Monty on the Run - compare the oscilloscope for the middle voice in particular), but in Delta the simplicity is the main feature.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnt_8bUXVpw

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AublfrOW578

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIA_0cvS2gQ

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_miL3Kd6E6w

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFnjA0VraDQ

[6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh8SIAZfDKs

I know a fair few electronic musicians that would feel right at home performing bach.

> How many people in the electronic genre could play Bach ?

How ironic it is that the initial popularization of synthesizers happened with Bach music [0][1].

Also, see [2] at that specific time. The motif in this case being played at the end is an explicit rendering of the theme that occurs throughout the song. Erez Eisen [3] had classical training before moving to the Electronic Music genre.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-On_Bach

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx5_c4Azn4E

[2] - https://youtu.be/UnHiYfToywo?t=455

[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erez_Einsen

>How many people in the electronic genre could play Bach?

More than you might think. A.G. Cook and Danny L Harle are arguably the most influential figures in contemporary pop and are both classically trained composers. Harle has worked with Carly Rae Jepsen and produces some obnoxiously saccharin pop music, but he has also released an album of harpsichord duets.

The heart and soul of electronic music isn't melody or harmony, it's timbre and rhythm. There's a grammar of timbre which completely eludes most classical musicians.

How many people in the electronic genre could play Bach?

I'm sure there are many. That sort of thing doesn't generally make it to the popular circles. The first one I thought of was an artist named Igorrr. It is quite possibly not your style, as some of the stuff might be difficult to listen to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmUQU8Mk4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKp30C3MwVk

> How many people in the electronic genre could play Bach ?

You should know that the first record of electronic music to be a hit record, was a record full of Bach music... by musician Walter Carlos (now Wendy Carlos).

De gustibus non est disputandum...

>I don't listen to much electronic music, but I find no subtleties or sensitivity in what I hear.

Personally, I listen to whatever triggers the release of happy hormones in my brain. I think this varies from person to person, but for most people (and me) it's close to pop. I'm fine with this being not high culture.

There's lots of sophisticated electronic music, but those are different subgenres to the point where they have less in common with the garden variety techno than they have with other genres. If you want to out-jazz jazz then something like Amon Tobin would probably interest you.

I stopped being a musical snob a while back. I mind no music that gives me chills but often it has to have some ingredients. Now it can be bubblegum pop, it's not an issue, as it should since I have many "ridiculous" songs that I find quite deep to listen too (teen pop idol, old kids shows theme songs).

>I don't listen to much electronic music, but I find no subtleties or sensitivity in what I hear.

Probably because you don't listen much.

There are subtleties in electronic music pieces that go several levels beyond jazz even -- in timbre, rhythm, harmony etc. Compared to something like 70s rock, there's no contest even.

You wont find those in EDM charts though.

Send me names, I'd gladly feed my ears with beyond jazz subtleties. I'm all for the musical experience, as long as it's well done.

But to the point, the thread is about mainstream guitar playing going away. So I was talking about mainstream electro. Surely there are deeply satisfying electronic music out there if you dig.

Here are some examples of some classic stuff -- but like anything new, they probably require repeated listenings to get the layers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgzjFCXCA8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTxC8wnXQo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnXVIsMimHY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw5AiRVqfqk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7bKe_Zgk4o&index=5&list=RDX...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FGtd3oH_PQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOjWMiPktqw

IM starts nice, the rest isn't my cup of tea. I'll keep it under my pillow for a second run.

ps: here's a gift https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj3GkvFIqSc

This shows how subjective things are. I'm really into electronic music, or at least was. Some of your links are absolute masterpieces like autechre or aphex twin. Some of the the other trance stuff is so far below in my opinion that don't belong together.

Maybe he tried to give a broad panel of electronic music. Autechre does have its own universe, I didn't listen more than 2 minutes in because the link loaded slowly and 2h made me skip.

It's the whole record that's why it's 2h. If you have Spotify you can listen to them piecemeal. I recommend Tri Repetae. It's my favorite record of them. It's not for everyone, and it's definitely not dance music. To me, they managed to make music that is a strange and poignant mixture of the cold and robotic and warm and human. It's electronic music at its best, something that can't really be achieved in other genres.

>Some of the the other trance stuff is so far below in my opinion that don't belong together.

The trance stuff is not that "below" in quality, it's more of the "subjective opinion" thing that's not to taste, if not a reaction to automatically associate "trance == bad".

It's not like I linked to some cheesy GOA stuff. If you look at those "trance" pieces, the craftmanship and complexity is obvious, sometimes to the point that some "higher-quality" Aphex Twin part is just quick farting around with the equipment.

In any case, not knowing what the parent would be interested in, I tried to go for a wider variety. If they were for 70s prog rock for example and "epic" stuff, they might appreciate the Infected Mushroom stuff more.

Again, that's what I said, it's subjective. To me infected mushroom and splonge (or however it's spelled) is nice sounding gym music, very little complexity or depth. It sounds like 1000 other trance or rave songs and little else than overlying the same synth patterns over and over. Honestly first time I played with a synth and turned on the arpeggiator I suddenly lost a bit of respect to most dance music out there. Nice production, little art. Autechre for example if a completely different thing, people who have created a completely unique and risky musical vocabulary and have been defiantly experimental all their careers.

But this is just like, my opinion :)

>Honestly first time I played with a synth and turned on the arpeggiator I suddenly lost a bit of respect to most dance music out there.

I can assure you that Shpongle, for one, are nothing like "gym music" or "1000 other trance or rave songs", and have very much complexity and depth (not to mention compositional chops). And it was my younger brother (a conservatory artist and professional orchestra player) that pointed me at them, and he very much admires their rhythmic, melodic and harmonic complexity. It's nothing like assorted arpeggiator patterns above a kick drum, and I think most of your reservations is because of some response against cheesy trance which is totally misapplied here.

(In fact even when most people legitimately identify cheesy trance -- which most of it is anyway -- they are still totally fine for "serious" techno works that have 1/10th the complexity and depth. Because, supposedely, one is "party music" and the other is somber "cerebral" stuff that's Pitchfork friendly).

Autechre definitely have a unique aesthetic but all of their music is mostly tinkering and happy accidents (they are non-musicians in the traditional sense), and all the complexity is "accidental" complexity triggered from merging layers of experiments.

Again, this is opinions but I just disagree. I listened to the links you pointed and bit more about spongle. They sound nice, I don't dislike it I will probably listen to them again some time when I want some groove going on, they are definitely on the upper tier of trance/rave stuff. But they are straightforward, low brow stuff to me. Nothing against that, just not in the same league as things like Autechre, Orbital, Aphex Twin, Massive Attack, Mouse on Mars, etc.

Autechre have moved into very experimental stuff lately, which I don't dig as much as their early stuff even though one has to admire their coherence and attitude. They are very serious and spend a lot of time trying new stuff. Their early stuff had the perfect amount of glitchy noises and melody for me. Nothing accidental about those records, they were perfectly planned and executed. Even the stuff they do know I think it's very deliberate even if it's a lot more abstract and difficult to listen to.

Talking about musicians in the traditional sense is usually nonsensical in modern music. What's a musician in the traditional sense? a classical pianist? half of the best punk bands could barely play, still made good songs. Many electronic musicians can't play a traditional instrument, is that what you mean "not in the traditional sense"? Their instrument is the computer. If you claim that they don't know music because they don't have a classical degree or can do guitar solos, it's nonsense at this point.

Made a selection with an eclectic variety of modern electronic sounds, enjoy!

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnXVIsMimHY (a gem of prog trance)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyORieDhpkg (dark electronic jazz)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rk1K5Mmnbg (black metal + breakbeat + classical)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2GDEKCIVTE (amazing psy chill album)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQKsuZ5a3_U

To illustrate how Electronic Music enables you to achieve a wide range of possibilities I've chosen these 2 songs from the same band:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI96JLR0rXM

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4YvkZeLrjs

Thank you very much, especially for the annotated subgenre :)

I was editing it and it was marked as dupe, here are some additional ones that could not make into it:

- https://soundcloud.com/isqamusic/6_tree-eater (can't describe)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iBaQrDW544 (dark ambient)

- https://soundcloud.com/crazy_astronaut/funky-shit-2014-with-... (well made mainstrean-ish hitech + dubstep)

- https://soundcloud.com/lucasnassar/toadstool-yamavoodoom-cel... (psycore)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyiB_rkob8o (mainstrean-ish well made dubstep)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tb0CwlQW0M (drum and bass)

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBUi-ZYN4QM (trip hop)

I'll add this, since there's the whole dark electronic dance music scene (the music those kids wearing black with bits of neon on it listen to).

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwuOHgateiw (Synthpop / futurepop / EBM)

(And beyond that, there's the harsh/industrial genres, but I can't think of anything I'd recommend for this discussion.)

Simon Posford is the Jimi Hendrix of the psychedelic trance genre :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn16TZ2H1Fw

(note, needs to be played as loud as you can get away with!)

What do you think about this kind of electronic music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9s6Vi-Ts-k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvmYo3q1qrg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeaGUfZM5hs

https://di.fm/channels is worth checking out BTW, it's a radio network with over 90 genres/channels with electronic music. If you don't find something you like there it's because you're determined to not like it.

Another recommendation: HEALTH Disco 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRIvjnpXOQI

It's actually an album full of electro remixes of songs from the HEALTH album GET COLOR (which is also an incredible album, but rather different in style) by different artists.

One of my favourite albums of all time. You'll find a lot in there if you give it a few listens :-)

If you’re looking for an example of subtle and thoughtful electronic music, I recommend listening to recent works of Tipper.

Listen to this Charles Cohen record if you want subtlety and sensitivity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-c5_A2y0JM

I'm pretty sure you're missing the good stuff, hidden a under a sea of mediocrity. That can easily happen as there's simply so much music out there.

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