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Comment by dwaltrip | Hacker News Reader

So I understand that Justin made some serious mistakes in pursuing his interest in several female entrepreneurs.

Does there exist an acceptable manner for someone in a position like his to pursue such an interest? I'd imagine it would depend a lot on the context -- for example, it seems clear to me it would be very inappropriate to do so during any time period where a deal was being negotiated.

And of course, general etiquette would obviously apply, e.g. get to know them a bit and cautiously begin displaying some interest, making sure they seem receptive, etc.

I am genuinely curious about people's thoughts. Not hoping to start an incendiary discussion.

EDIT: I guess it wasn't clear enough that I'm not trying to defend or rationalize Justin's actions in any way. I wasn't trying to explore why exactly what he did was wrong -- that seems pretty clear enough. I was hoping to discuss more ambiguous scenarios.

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What you should do:

-Ask a woman out for dinner

-Exchange contact information, and ask to connect outside of work.

-Reach out via social media and express interest.

------------------

What you should not do:

-Grab a woman's leg under the table.

-Suggest that you move to a hotel room in the middle of a meeting.

-Suggest an open sexual relationship with multiple women from one company.

-Continue with romantic and sexual advances after already being rejected once.

> -Continue with romantic and sexual advances after already being rejected once.

I'm not sure that Michelle Obama would now wish that Barack had followed that particular piece of advice, when as a colleague he persistently asked her out after she said no several times.

I'd imagine the massive power imbalance makes this effectively impossible.

That said, I think it's irrelevant. We're adults, and should be able to recognize that this isn't a fairy tale where you see someone and fall in love at first sight and need to risk it all to make it work.

This is a business relationship. If you're looking for love, look somewhere else. If you're looking for something a little more tawdry, then doubly so look somewhere else. It's just not appropriate in this situation.

> We're adults, and should be able to recognize that this isn't a fairy tale where you see someone and fall in love at first sight and need to risk it all to make it work.

> This is a business relationship. If you're looking for love, look somewhere else.

This analysis, while capable of broadly preventing harm, seems to overlook some reasonable situations.

Scenario: male VC, female founder. Have interacted numerous times at casual events over the past year or two, with several longer/more meaningful conversations. No business relationship between them, and no deals on the horizon. Some apparent mutual chemistry and interest. The extent of this romantic potential is not fully known yet (obviously).

Is it still wrong to cautiously and respectfully pursue this, at least while both parties appear interested? To me that would feel like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If it's not obvious, I'm assuming a decent level of maturity and self control here.

I find it deeply disturbing that you're more concerned about how male VCs can get their rocks off than the actual harassment that occurred here.

It's called a tangent, is that not allowed? Also, you are grotesquely mischaracterizing my line of discussion.

I made it very clear in my comments in this thread that I fully agree Justin made many enormous mistakes. Is that disclaimer insufficient?

I'm sorry that I was overly accusatory of you directly. I tend to have a belief that what people spend their words on in a comment thread is an indicator for how much they fractionally care about a particular thing. I recognize that this is not always true for everyone. Mea culpa.

R.e. tangents, there are of course cases where they are just fine. But as in real life, sometimes they are less appropriate, and sometimes they would be considered quite rude. I think it's easy to lose sight of that online. I think it's worth asking yourself whether this particular topic might not be the time to be bringing up tangents about the permissibility of/avenues for dating people who are seeking investment with one's VC firm. At least one person has found it off-putting, and while I'm an oddball and as unique as any other human person, I know several others who would likely feel the same way.

Thank you for this genuine and respectful response, it's a rarity in many online communities (although I think HN is better than most).

I knew I was taking a risk, and tried to frame my comments accordingly. Looking back, I probably could have a done a better job, especially given the sensitive nature of the topic. I also don't think I was clear enough about what I was actually asking, and how it is different from the situation in the OP.

Re, my willingness to post this: I couldn't really think of a better time or place to bring up the discussion on HN. I suppose I could make a separate "Ask HN" thread, but I'm not sure that would have worked out well. I do think the line of question is worthwhile, as opposed to only having a bunch of comments describing their particular opinion of actions of the person in question, and not much deeper discussion. I was hoping to spark an interesting and thoughtful discussion.

Another reason: I was feeling a bit desensitized and outrage-fatigued, given all of the news and events lately, and I imagined some others were as well. I hadn't made any comments like this in any of the other threads about sexism in tech on HN that have been popping up.

However, I do understand why you found it off-putting -- thank you for sharing. I hope you understand that I don't think an apology is needed or appropriate, but I will definitely keep your remarks in mind.

Have a great weekend :)

As with a doctor dating patients or a lawyer dating clients, I'd say a VC should probably look outside the entrepreneurship realm for dates. Too much potential for the power dynamic to impact consent.

At a minimum, recuse oneself from any decisions or oversight over the decisions related to a particular deal. But actually just don't, as ceejayoz has said.

Yes, perhaps not grabbing someone's thigh under a table at a bar would be a good place to start.

I also think you simply shouldn't pursue subordinates, or those in a similar position like founders that need your money, as a matter of principle. I'm not saying it can't be done but there is so much more risk than reward in doing so. Consider also that there are thousands of very smart and successful women (or men or whatever) out there that aren't your subordinates.

I don't think there are any concrete rules, which is why the sensible thing to do, if you're in a position of power, is simply not chase any members of the opposite gender that you have a compromising interest in.

It's not as if there aren't plenty of other dating prospects out there.

> Does there exist an acceptable manner for someone in a position like his to pursue such an interest?

No. The power dynamic always makes it a problem. Someone in a position like his needs to look elsewhere for relationships.

I understand this is a common position, and I totally understand why. In most cases, it seems like the proper default.

However, I wonder if it is really something we can hold up as an absolute. Aren't there many successful relationships where one person is higher up the ladder than the other? Obviously, such things must be approached with significantly more caution.

But it seems an over generalization to assert that it is _impossible_ for it to happen without an abuse of power occurring.

Please note I'm absolutely NOT trying to defend or diminish Justin's actions here. I'm asking a different question.

There may be a million-in-one shot of making it work, but in all those other chances, the risks of it blowing up are too high, and the near-certitude of making the less-powerful party feel threatened is just not worth it.

An analogy: An entrepreneur is meeting a VC for breakfast and wants the stem of their strawberry cut off. The VC suggests that he throws a knife at the entrepreneur while the entrepreneur holds the strawberry in front of them. Sure, it's possible it'll work, but it's dangerous and the entrepreneur is almost certainly going to get hurt.

Don't work in tech? Business development/marketing/real estate fields are full of young people who boink all the time. It actually happens much less frequently in tech because of the language/cultural barrier from the high immigrant population and the introvertedness of engineers.

It's just highlighted and seen as controversial when it happens in tech.

That's a gross misrepresentation of the issue here.

The issue is not young people having sex with each other. The issue is powerful people dating people they have significant power over. Business development/marketing/real estate fields generally don't let bosses seduce employees, either.

That's not really relevant since both situations most likely have similar ratios of occurrence when comparing tech to those fields.

I can imagine that bosses in the business development/marketing/real estate fields make advances on female subordinates at much higher rates also. Again, people only care when it happens in tech.

Perhaps they do. I don't know. In the abstract, I agree, it happening in those fields would be just as bad. However, I work in tech and anticipate continuing to work in tech for many years. Many of my friends work in tech. I am, somewhat but not entirely regrettably, selfish and I do care more about things that affect me more directly. If people in real estate make advances on their subordinates, that is bad, but I don't have to worry about any of my friends being the ones having advances made on. I don't have to worry about avoiding the person in question for fear of being the subordinate being harassed. I don't have to worry that they'll end up being the client contact on a pentest.

People here are largely in the tech industry. Is it any wonder that they care more about things happening in the tech industry than elsewhere? Is it a problem that should be fixed that they do?

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