China’s Mobike plans move into services and international expansion | Hacker News Reader

China’s Mobike plans move into services and international expansion

techcrunch.com

36 pointsjanober50 comments

I'm in China and use Mobike a lot. I've said it before and I'll say it again. MoBike totally nails it. In terms of bike sharing they blow everything out of the water. The bikes work, the unlocking via app is quick, the prices are reasonable, and you can park anywhere. To anyone who says China can't innovate, this will take the wind out of your sails. I think they will be the first Chinese startup to become a consumer juggernaut on par with Airbnb or Uber.

I would bet against it.

Germany had the best tank in WW2. The "royal tiger". But the Russian T34 was much cheaper. They outproduced Germany.

MoBikes are expensive and heavy. They look over-engineered for the problem they are trying to solve. Compare this with the yellow bkes ofo. They seem to be much cheaper to produce and are much lighter (no GPS positioning system, location is saved by last cyclist during checkout).

Ofos get stolen. There are almost none left in Singapore. All you need to do is remember the PIN, and scratch out the serial.

The "overengineered" Mobikes and oBikes (a competitor with very similar bikes - solar panels for the electronics, GPS lock, etc.) are all that is left in our streets.

Not sure which mobike model you guys have in Singapore, the ones in Shanghai/Beijing have pretty poor user experience, it just feel so heavy thanks to its chain-less design.

I would love to try them, they look really good, with solid tyres, a chain, and a large solar panel to feed the lock. However none of my cards are accepted by Mobike (including the two market leading banks). At least I can install the app, which I couldn't after their Singapore launch ("not available in your region").

oBike is for now the best UX in Singapore. Clean app, mostly works, and they've really started to get a grip on the broken bike problem. A recent Straits Times article claimed that of about 100 bikes reported parked incorrectly by the authorities, the oBike team removed 67 before the half day grace period ended (and got fined for the rest), so they seem to be on top of the illegal parking problem as well.

The main issue with all of them is the spottiness of geolocation in built up areas. To an extent this is no longer a problem as you can find the things everywhere, but back when they were relatively rare it could mean a good 10-15 minutes of walking around looking for the mystery yellow pin. These days I even get a choice of model (my favourite has the shiny mudguards, the 3rd generation? they seem to have the least friction; but the massive 1st gen ones are very comfortable so long as you don't encounter any hills).

The Mobikes in Singapore are the best. They glide along compared to Obikes. They have chains so must be a new design.

Try its 4th gen bicycles with chains.

solid tyres? then still the same heavy feeling.

So, MoBikes don't get stolen? Why? Is the GPS System so hard to remove or are they to inconvenient to use as a stolen bike? (Weight is 17-25 kg)

Can't speak for Mobike, since I don't use it, but oBike has a very efficient penalty system. Breaking or stealing a bike results in an effective ban from the app (the cost goes up to $5/minute, then $15/minute) and users are rewarded for reporting badly parked, broken or personally-locked bikes. In several months I've only seen two instances of people using personal locks.

The bike is pretty solid and alright for commuting, but what would be the point? You get the first 5 minutes free, the first 2 rides of the day free for 15 minutes each, the entire weekend free, and you couldn't commute with your stolen bike since locking it anywhere visible would get it reported and removed almost immediately. Might as well put your card into the system and occasionally pay a dollar or two.

I think it's just because these bikes are very cheap, maybe the guard system is the major cost. Indeed, some of my friend's bikes were stolen even carefully locked(about 1500-3000 RMB). On the contrary, mobike use steel frame not Aluminium(so it's heavy), doesn't have a derailleur, and other parts are all very cheap. Which make it's cost to be very low(I can buy such a bike with 300 rmb). So just buy one will be more convenient. p.s I live in Wuhan.

AFAIK, a VC guy told me a MoBike costs 3000 RMB to produce. The costs may have come down but this was a lot!

The MoBike official cost is about 3000 RMB(used to be 6000 at first). But there is some additional cost: the parts are not standard, and the design is totally new. When they produce more the cost will come down. I don't think such a bike worth 3000, but maybe true, they can be much cheaper to achieve better experience though. Shared bikes should bear any weather or rude users, this also increased the cost. And generally, your own bike is not supposed to be in rain storm very often..

I don't get the point for sharing bikes, not even Mobike, in Singapore with the hilly terrain.

I'm staying for a while in China (Beijing), and signed up for Ofo. Unfortunately, I didn't know that they have quite a bad reputation. About 1/3 of the bikes are broken, and nobody bothers to collect or repair them.

More worrisome is that they seem to have an unsustainable business model. At signup you pay 99 RMB (for Mobike it is 299 I think), and they you should pay per ride - but I've only once had to pay at all, most of the time it is 0 RMB. I guess that's also why they don't care that much what happens with their bikes. Their only income is new sign-ups.

By the way, the latest Ofos also have digital locks, and even Bluetooth. And there is a new generation of MoBikes I think which is a lot lighter. It is interesting what kind of new technologies MoBike uses, like airless wheels, where the tires look like swiss cheese from the side to save weight and roll lighter. Or a chainless drive.

About the stealing, I have the opposite experience. I think Ofo has proven that you can just slap a combination lock on a bike, and honesty or laziness will keep people from stealing them. I mean, where would you store the stolen bike? In front of your house, where there are hundreds of other Ofo bikes that cost next to nothing?

"most of the time it is 0 RMB"

This is true. I don't understand why. I thought it may be a first month freeby or something.

During the Uber vs Didi era, they paid the customer 10-20 yuan for each ride. Occasional free bike ride is nothing I guess. Especially when you have a huge deposit that's very unlikely to be refunded. Also, you probably happened to use them during very competitive times (since last spring). I've used these bikes since last year, for most of the time, you do have to pay.

they pay you to use it. if you are surprised for the 0 RMB charge, think about those people riding those bikes to collection Hong Bo as their day jobs.

Sorry, but the ofo bikes are shit. Mobike just works, ofo is as likely to be broken as not. This is my personal experience living in Shanghai, and the opinion of everyone I've talked to about these bikes. If you can't rely on the bike working, the service has no value to me.

What is likely to happen is as the local governments get involved to stop the proliferation of bicycles taking up limited sidewalk space, there will be increasing restrictions placed on the bike sharing model, and there will be some consolidation in the market. When the tide goes out we can see who was swimming naked.

I think the mobikes are engineered just about right, and they have at least four totally different designs out, which shows they are experimenting. I usually pay 1RMB per ride, which for the middle class is as close to free as makes no difference, but probably enough to make the business sustainable at scale.

Bottom line: bike sharing is here to stay, and mobike got it right.

I just had a chance to try it and I agree. It's almost fully automated, unlike other companies where you have to punch in a code to unlock to bike.

Also among their competitors they have the name most likely to work in Western countries, compared to competitors such as "Ofo".

What are these bikes like, and how much do they weigh. They often remind me of the Bicycle Shaped Object's I had as a kid (and probably are just as heavy). Then again similar Mamacharis haven't been 'disappointing'.

the entire bicycle manufacturing industry is being wiped out thanks to Mobike and its competitor ofo (each has about 50% of market share). one of them ordered 5 million bikes a couple months back, according to the files submitted to the Chinese regulator, the manufacturer building those bikes are making less than 1.5 USD per bike - you don't need to be smart to imagine the conditions faced by those workers actually building the bikes.

bike shops around the country are being shutdown as people no longer buy/upgrade/repair their own bikes, they rent one for 6 USD cent each ride. you see less fun/cool/stupid/crappy bikes on street, they all look the same now.

do they reduce emission? well, rather than walking to the metro stations to catch metro people now ride a mobike/ofo to catch the metro, I don't see any reduced cars on street. There is no stats to back the reduced emission story at all - otherwise you'd be seeing them pointing to those figures jumping up and down on daily basis.

do they make cities better? well, see photos below, remember - they don't clean up their mess, they just deploy their tens of millions cheap bikes onto your streets.

http://img.mp.itc.cn/upload/20170327/3e5e188412ef46ca892d20f...

http://s2.imbiker.cn/201705/22/b25b38ba8cda6df9c686657044f48...

"the entire bicycle manufacturing industry is being wiped out thanks to Mobike and its competitor ofo"

If fewer bicycles are being produced due to higher usage per bike, that's good for the environment, right? Even if reduces the size of the bicycle manufacturing market.

"manufacturer building those bikes are making less than 1.5 USD per bike - you don't need to be smart to imagine the conditions faced by those workers actually building the bikes."

I don't see how the profit made my bicycle manufacturers affects worker conditions. These are determined by the overall labour market, as these workers aren't bicycle specialists.

"I don't see any reduced cars on street."

The effect would have to be huge in order for you to be able to notice it. (I'm assuming you didn't actually collect data.)

"do they make cities better?"

Yes. The subway journey from my place to work is unacceptably long, due to the long walk at one end. Mobike has solved that problem. Three-wheeler electric tuktuks riding the wrong way down the service lane are less prevalent now, too, which is a bonus.

"If fewer bicycles are being produced due to higher usage per bike, that's good for the environment, right?"

The manufacturers are being hit hard because their profit margin is squeezed to the absolute limit. 8 RMB or less than 1.5 USD is the profit you get for building and shipping a bike. With this in mind, do you seriously believe that they are going to maintain the same level of control to limit pollution when making those bikes? Well, your room for environmental protection is now at less than 1.5 USD each bike, that is assuming the manufacturer is willing to give up _ALL_ profit to battle pollution caused during production.

"Yes. The subway journey from my place to work is unacceptably long, due to the long walk at one end. Mobike has solved that problem. Three-wheeler electric tuktuks riding the wrong way down the service lane are less prevalent now, too, which is a bonus."

Great, would you like to share a few photos on how the metro station look like during peak hours? let's focus on those mobike/ofo pollution outside the station. I have a few for you:

http://www.52qixiang.com/uploads/allimg/170421/1-1F4211AU9.j... http://p3.pstatp.com/origin/1b7a00067dfae9a90762

"do you seriously believe that they are going to maintain the same level of control to limit pollution when making those bikes?"

I believe that the level of profit they make has no impact on the level of control to limit pollution. Their actions in regard to pollution will be driven by whatever (dis)incentives are put in place by government regulations.

"that is assuming the manufacturer is willing to give up _ALL_ profit to battle pollution caused during production"

That is assuming that the profit figure doesn't already reflect any costs for 'battling pollution'.

"let's focus on those mobike/ofo pollution outside the station"

You're using the word 'pollution' in a different sense than I was, and in a wider sense than the common usage. I was talking about air quality, and I guess you knew that. You're talking about space taken up on the pavement, a very different problem.

> I don't see any reduced cars on street

https://translate.google.com.hk/translate?hl=zh-CN&ie=UTF8&p...

Quote from the link above:

Gaode map traffic data show that driving users within 5 km of travel accounted for more than 30%, travel accounted for the largest proportion. From the shared bicycle travel mileage data, more than 90% of the shared bicycle travel scene concentrated in less than 5 km, which shows a short distance travel, sharing the bike instead of driving a large potential.

Compared with the first quarter of last year, first-tier cities driving users within 5 km of short-distance travel accounted for has been reduced and relatively obvious decline in Beijing, driving within 5 km by 3.8%, Shanghai 3.2% reduction, this phenomenon may be associated with the emergence of shared bicycles A short distance driving trip.

This is _not_ conclusive at all, there are way too many questions to be asked -

1. did those reduced mileage caused by more carpooling, improved public transport, e.g. Shanghai route 71[1]? or maybe people just choose to walk more often due to the slightly improved air quality in 2017?

2. Baidu map is on a head on competition with AutoNavi (gaode), Baidu claimed to have overtaken AutoNavi as the No.1 in 2016. With such claimed shrinking market share from AutoNavi's side, a 3% figure which is probably smaller than the error margin allowed, together with the fact that AutoNavi's parent company actively invested in such bike sharing scheme, you need to really religious about mobike/ofo to consider such claimed "reduction" meaningful.

[1] https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%8A%E6%B5%B7%E5%85%AC%E4...

It definitely reduced my frequency in driving to work. I had to walk for 30 mins on my way to work, so I preferred driving. Now it's reduced by 2/3--a ten minute bike ride. Instead of being caught in the traffic with a full bladder, I now get more exercise and get to read books on the train, even though it's packed and sweaty. I don't think my use scenario is particularly special.

The real issue is that there's no recycling strategy and these companies don't know what to do with worn/broken bikes, seemingly choosing instead to throw them all on a big pile.

http://oi63.tinypic.com/e19s7t.jpg

recycling is just a small part of the story. all those bikes are basically un-managed. that is actually the core strategy to minimise operational costs.

the real question that need to be asked here is - if I need to pay for parking my car on street, how can those two multi billion business[1] enjoy such privilege to park their 10 million revenue generating bikes on streets for free.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/15/mobike-raises-600-million/

> the manufacturer building those bikes are making less than 1.5 USD per bike

That sounds like stupidity on side of the bicycle manufacturers. I've heard anecdotally the opposite, that the new ride sharing schemes have revitalized the bicycle industry.

I was in Beijing 4 years ago, and all of the famous bicycles were gone. The bicycle lanes were used for cars. Now they cleared the lanes again, and people are riding.

I'm not sure the current details are sustainable, but the idea in general has potential to be a game changer.

The bicycle industry is the least of the workers' worries. Automation will be a bloodbath. I'm reminded of that factory which "shed" 90% of its workforce a year ago.

Why are you so outraged by their success?

success? you mean successfully polluted my city with millions of un-managed bikes causing chaos everywhere? or maybe I should just blindly support it just because it is mobile internet based?

http://cdn1.powerapple.com/upload/news/article_attachments/f...

The problems you point out seem rather easily solvable.

And anyway, I'd rather pollute my city with more metal lying around if it would mean breathing less carcinogenic smoke every day.

Why do the bicycle companies make less when Mobike and OFO dramatically increase the demand for them?

People are talking about Mobike being innovators, and their business sounds like it's doing really well, but bike sharing is a concept that's been around for a while. Melbourne Bike Share[1] was founded in 2010, though apparently the bike sharing concept was around in Europe since the 60s[2].

People suggest Melbourne Bike Share was largely unsuccessful due to mandatory helmet laws in Australia making them a bit inconvenient. I'm sure there will be idiosyncrasies in certain places which make the concept less appealing.

In saying that though, I really wish there was a service like this when I lived in Guangzhou. I think it's a great fit for very dense cities.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_Bike_Share

[2]: "Runde Sache". Readers Digest Deutschland (in German). 06/11: 74–75. June 2011.

The sharing schemes in Europe and MoBike are completely different. The dockless nature of MoBike, Ofo, Obike etc is an order of magnitude game changer. I pick up a bike from below my block, ride it anywhere and just leave it there. I use it many times a day. When I lived in Europe I never once used the docked bike sharing services.

The melbourne scheme failed not because of the helmet laws, but because of its poor coverage. How many streets in inner city suburbs had those shared bikes stations for pick up/drop? Quite often you use those bikes for 10 minutes and then had to spend the next 15 minutes to find the location where you can drop it - that is after another 15 minutes spent earlier to pick up your shared bike.

Apple is seldom the first in anything, but it succeeds anyway for Everything Just Works™. Mobike may or may not pull off the same feat.

I would love to introduce this to my country, Germany. I think in large cities it might work well, especially for the last meters after public transport, but also in university towns. We already have rentable bikes, but Ofo and Mobike proved that you don't have to have overengineered docking stations and complicated locks. If you let people just leave the bikes where they want, it works surprisingly well.

Problems are:

- I have no capital, and you'd need a high investment upfront. Even the simplest bike is not going to cost less than 200-300 €, and those are not the most durable. Also, in Germany you require light. However, I think Ofo has proven that you do not need GPS or electronic locks (initially), and you don't need docking stations.

- Germans sometimes hate new things. It is my gut feeling that I'd get a lot of resistance. Especially after the first accident, or the first bike gets thrown into a river. One problem is that in Beijing, apparently there is an Ofo graveyard. I haven't seen it myself, but broken Ofo bikes are piling meters high. You just need one bad competitor who creates a mess, and the whole idea is in danger.

But:

- As a renter, you are not obliged to get insurance for the riders AFAIK.

- Bike infrastructure is good already.

- It should be possible to make a sustainable business, but you'd have to reach a certain scale.

Don't you have Callabike in your city? It's exactly the same concept, the lock isn't complicated and it all works like a charm. Use the app to find one, ride to wherever you want to, leave it there and log out. Then there's Nextbike, which I haven't used yet but works similarly and stuff from local public transportation companies like MVG Rad in Munich which has stations but allows you to leave the bike also in a certain area. How does Mobike provide more than these offerings?

Yes, but in my town you can only pick them up at the train station and have to bring them back there. In larger cities there are more stations, or in some places you can leave them anywhere, but I've never been to a place where they were abundant. From what I've heard, Munich is a particularly good place.

The difference to the chinese bikes is:

- The chinese bikes are dirt simple. They sometimes have reliability-oriented features like special tires, otherwise they are just commodity bikes with a lock, painted colorful. Call a bike in contrast is really overengineered, with custom frame and everything. (OK, this is more of an advantage for the company than for the user.)

- There are no stations. This is the big difference. Where ever I can walk, I can ride faster. I never look for a bike, I just grab one when I find it.

- The bicyles are absolutely abundant. Even at a small subway station in beijing, there are at least 50 of each brand. Contrast it with Hamburg, where in the city center, 2 stops away from the central station, you find a sad docking station with eight empty places. Maybe this is only possible due to "chinese scale", I don't know.

I doubt the bikes cost more than €50/bike.

At scale - maybe. If I go to a manufacurer and say "Hi, I'm a startup, I'd like to buy 100 bikes", they say sure and point me to their regular catalog.

Mobike and other sharing bicycle competitors has been in a fierce fight for three months.

From sometime this April to two to three weeks ago, it is not only free riding a Mobike, but there is also a chance of random amount of cash gift, known as Hong Bao. I have personally earned about $40 of cash by riding Mobike, the amount of which almost reaches the deposit for renting the bike.

because they are both backed by major investors with access to unlimited cash. they don't invest in those bikes, your deposit covers that, they don't manage those bikes, what else to spend their cash on?

well, they picked the easiest way - they pay their users to use their services.

Even if my deposit had covered the gift cash, what I have got would be too much in the sense of annualized returns. They just burned incredible amount of investor's money in this campaign. It would be crucial which of them drains its revenue first/last. I guess the investors would be in favor of a merger, then.

Governments should be forcing these operators to place the bike deposits in a trust account, rather than using the money for capital to fund expansion. I paid $50 USD as a "deposit" for oBike, however in the future when one of these companies fails, they will take millions in deposits with them. Especially if the bikes are getting stolen or wrecked.

Mobike is innovative, however, the competition is becoming so fierce with at least 10 major copy cats here in Shanghai. The unit economics of this model is being destroyed by the follower mindset in China's tech scene.

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