Comment by nxsynonym | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nxsynonym | Hacker News Reader

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On a similar note, it's always nice to see the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" stories involving homeless people, but we (meaning the U.S) need to place higher value on assisting those who can't assist themselves.

Mental illness is the root of the problem. From homelessness to suicide rates to general well being, we need a better mental health care system in place.

I've been reading "Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging" by Sebastian Junger and it draws a pretty clear connection between what we consider a "successful person" and unhappiness. In essence, people were happier when they lived simpler lives in tribes, and as society grew to place value on financial/personal independence and move away from the tribe system of survival - people became more unhappy and mental illness/suicide rates rose.

The more we segregated people by wealth/social status, the more isolated people feel and mental illness rates creep higher and higher.

This article just reinforces the idea that only lazy/dumb people are homeless, and only those who "put in the work" deserve recognition.

I always smile when I see that phrase, "pull yourself up by the bootstraps," because the phrase originally meant "do something impossible," back in the 1700s. As in, this thing you're trying to do is as easy/difficult as lifting yourself off the ground by your own bootstraps.

I'm not arguing the "lift yourself up through effort" meaning is wrong. That's been the most common meaning since the 1960s, with some examples dating to the 1930s. But still, I get a chuckle, because the new meaning is also nearly impossible for most people too, without a bit of luck or extraordinary circumstances. :)

I wonder how the people who are currently homeless would have ended up, if they were born in tribal times?

I guess that the mentally ill would have suffered an extreme ostracism and violence from the population, but I also think that some of the conditions that lead to homelessness (drugs, alcohol, financial problems) are very recent.

Yeah, it depends on the type of mental illness, I think. Addiction is obviously harder without easy access to the chemical/activity.

But even for something like depression, many of the behaviors that are known to help would be more prevalent/mandatory in small, close-knit, more primitive societies. For example, you'd probably be getting tons of physical exercise, getting good sleep without artificial light, have frequent contact with a close family/social network, and probably have a pretty fixed routine that would be expected of all members of your cohort within the community. I'm not saying those activities cure depression, but speaking personally and for close friends, those activities make a huge difference.

I agree, absence of isolation in primitive societies can be a huge advantage.

It's hard to say - I'd like to imagine the addiction and mental illness would be much less prevalent.

Also the book I mentioned talks about personal value and self worth in a Tribe setting - sharing and providing for others, keeping the tribe healthy as a whole, was the main driving factor versus personal wealth and possessions. The biggest Tribal infractions were failing to fight for the tribe (cowardice, not protecting the tribe), unwillingness to share food/resources, and killing another Tribe member.

I'm sure there would be Tribe members who were less effective/productive, but for the most part it seems like the slack would be picked up by the other tribe members.

That sounds like romanticism/nostalgia, and probably ignores a lot of bad stuff that happened.

If you want another take on more primitive cultures, read "The Better Angels of our Nature" by Steven Pinker. You probably won't want to return to that kind of lawlessness.

That being said, I think we probably have a lot to learn and may have made some wrong turns. For instance, people are probably happier having more close relationships with other people, but separate houses where we don't know our neighbors doesn't allow that.

"Tribes" doesn't gloss over the brutality that existed in tribal groups, but it does remind the reader that the same brutality and savageness exists in "civilized" societies (the Spanish Inquisition being one example).

Your house example is spot on. As society - specifically Western European and American - put an emphasis on private suburban living and personal wealth, people started feeling more disconnected and happiness levels dropped.

Of course tribal life was not perfect, or the world wouldn't have evolved past it for the most part. Violence towards other tribes and groups was profound and extreme, but this may have actually contributed to overall happiness levels instead of detracting. One last "Tribes" point - people who are living through a common goal in extreme circumstances (war, natural disaster, disease, etc) are better towards each other and experience lower suicide rates than in times of peace.

Thanks for the rec - will add to reading list.

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