Critical iPhone 4 Issues and Complaints Are Mounting | Hacker News Reader

Critical iPhone 4 Issues and Complaints Are Mounting

mashable.com

68 pointsMykalM54 comments

What is perhaps most intriguing here, especially about the antenna problem is that in the field tests they were probably using that iPhone 3G disguise case that Gizmodo revealed Apple testers were using. What's interesting there is that that case would impede discovery of this hand contact problem because the hand wouldn't thus short the two side antenae together as a case would be over it. I'm hoping that these were thoroughly tested on Apple's campus without case because on the surface this looks like a deep flaw in what Jobs vaunted as a revolutionary product design, signaling that Apple was it's own worst enemy in providing inadequate testing conditions in pursuit of it's trademark secrecy.

You could probably fix it with some insulator such as clear tape or some kind of screen protector like material.

Or Apple's "bumper" case, and 1st-party accessories are a rare move for them.

1st-party accessories are a rare move for them.

What? They've had tons of first-party accessories.

I've heard it's also been tested to work inside the shell of an iPhone 3GS.

I was discussing the new iPhone with a friend from a competing hardware manufacturer the day after the original announcement and he was surprised about the external antenna design. He said the industry generally shies away from exposing antenna metal since skin is lossy and grounded and that even a minor dent or crack from a fall could change the reception characteristics dramatically.

Using a case may basically become a requirement.

Engadget reports that one of their units is having this particular problem, but their testing unit does not. To me, that sounds like something is wrong with a number of the first units released, rather than a fundamental design flaw.

Either way, it can't be the way Apple would like to start this release, since they want to make units that go to new customers rather than to replace units already bought. I just hope they find the problem quickly and are open about the issue.

I've tried every combination of fingers and hands on every part of the phone in every configuration I'm physically capable of, and I can't make it lose signal with a touch. Similarly, plenty of videos have been posted of people who can't make it happen.

Which suggests that... wait for it... there's not some huge fundamental design/manufacturing flaw in the iPhone's antennae that Apple didn't notice or wants to cover up. Instead, it's just another cell phone that's picky about signal strength, like pretty much every other cell phone ever manufactured. Hell, Macrumors published video from 2008 showing an old iPhone doing exactly the same things people are now claiming to be a brand-new phenomenon unique to the iPhone 4:

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/23/iphone-4-signal-declines...

Add to this the fact that the "story" started at an outlet which has a pretty big and well-known axe to grind against Apple, and I feel like we need a whole lot more than some youtube videos and a bunch of "me too" posts in a forum to make a big issue out of this.

Just because a bug appears seemingly randomly does not mean it's not a bug.

When I was a kid watching tv with an indoor antenna, anytime there was poor reception I'd go and hold the antenna and reception would improve or get a lot worse.

So, I've no problems believing that this is an issue, that it affects different people differently at different times, and that Apple knew about it and made those shells as a fix (a trade-off in exchange for greater compactness of the device) for those who want it.

From my time at university doing electronics we observed that some people do cause this effect - one person in our department consistently shorted anything he touched. We never figured out why but I know a couple of other people who have the same problem.

Maybe depending on how "sweaty" people are, which would affect the contact resistance of their fingers?

It's something different. I used to tune in radios by waving my hands around the antenna like a theremin. Some people seem to throw off more of an electrical field than others. Yes, I am available for bizarre scientific experiments.

This comment made me smile - this is exactly what I did as a kid when my radio got static-y. Slightly changing my position with relation to the radio, without touching it, sometimes fixed it.

I have the same relationship with the cheap clock radio in my bedroom. It sounds great when I'm in bed (to the side of the radio), but as soon as I get out of bed (in front of it) I have to turn the damn thing off because the reception gets terrible.

I wonder if this means I shouldn't get the iPhone4? ;-)

It's completely possible that:

- it only affects some units

- some people are exhibiting superstitious behavior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner#Superstition_in_t...)

- some combination of the two

Watching entire shows while standing up, holding an antenna: priceless. (Didn't feel like coming up with the first part of the cliche)

Actually, lying on the floor, holding up the antenna with my feet. Didn't think anyone would be interested in the details.

Or maybe...wait for it...you're just incredibly defensive about Apple and/or your new iPhone 4? And the story (sorry, "story", as you put it) started at Macrumors, not at Gizmodo, though it's humorous that you try to discount it because of the Giz connection.

There is nothing remarkable about a new product having issues. What matters here is that there's some mythology about Apple perfection that just isn't (and has NEVER been) backed by actual reality. So far there's the breakable unbreakable screen, the easily scratched unscratchable back, serious colour issues in the screen, and a possible antenna issue (hey, who ever holds a phone in their hand? BTW - Is Jobs left handed?), and that's among a very small number of pre-shipments. We shall see.

You missed the alleged supply constraints on the Retina display, and white version of the iPhone 4 that have "proven more challenging to manufacture than expected".

These are delays/contstaints rather than failures, but all together they point to the potential problems you give yourself when you need to differentiate your new models so much via novel product design.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/24/some-iphone-4-models-see-...

Engadget/AOL doesn't have any big and well-known axes to grind, right?

Here's my take on it: Galvanically shorting the WiFi and GSM antennas is indeed an inherent design problem that Apple solved through some clever adaptive capacitance circuit or something. That solution is working on your phone, but on a certain lot of them, it's not properly adapting.

You only hear people complaining about something on the internet when it doesn't work. So it always sounds like every product launch, ever, is a complete failure. Apple's especially, since they're high-profile.

So here's an opposing anecdote for you: my iPhone 4 is completely fine. No problems at all.

Perhaps complains sponsored by the competition?

Companies have attempted positive astro-turfing. The negative counterpart would seem to be easier, since people aften fear the worst, so FUD is an easier sell. This is probably going on all the time. I think it's only effective on marginal products, though. If something's going to succeed, then it makes no difference.

EDIT: I am something of a marginal case, though. I have a 1st generation 8GB iPhone. I keep wishing there was some way for me to have a carrier that's not AT&T, to have pre-paid calls & data, to be on Verizon's excellent network, to not have to deal with unlocking and jailbreaking and iTunes upgrade paranoia, to be able to put in a different SIM when I travel overseas, etc... Right now, I am figuring out a way to get my hands on a Canadian iPhone. The though occurs to me: why don't I just get an Android phone? I already own two perfectly good iOS test platforms.

The original iPhone had an aluminum backing, with a small black band that ran horizontally along the bottom of the back of the phone. If you covered this area while using the phone, you'd find that your EDGE speed would drop dramatically, and you would lose signal strength. Once you knew this, you had the choice between avoiding this area with your hands for maximum network performance, or holding the phone exactly how you liked and having reduced performance.

The iPhone 4 (mine, at least) has the exact same issue, and it's almost in the exact same place, the only difference being the reasoning behind why it happens (in this case, it seems to be about bridging two pieces of metal with your hands), and how it can be avoided (buying a case might help with the iPhone 4, whereas it didn't with the iPhone 2G).

I've owned many other phones that were sensitive to where you held them, in fact I think every phone I've ever owned without an antenna that sticks out is sensitive to this problem to some degree. I had to "train" myself not to cup my hand behind the top-backing of the Nokia I had before my iPhone. And now I'm already "trained" from holding my iPhone that I don't touch the bottom left of the phone when I talk anyway.

It's not a big deal, just something to get used to (and it might turn out that a case will resolve it, which can't be said about many other phones with this issue). It is a legitimate "con" when determining whether to buy the phone, but it doesn't deserve all the ridiculous comments about how the phone is somehow flawed because of this.

(And just to give some more specific details of how this affects my phone: if I put pressure on the bottom-left corner of the phone with my hand where the seam is, the signal strength drops: by 1-2 bars if I hold it normally, or all the way to 1 bar if I give it a death grip. In either case, the calls don't seem to drop).

If you use their Apple-branded case, the little rubber band that goes around the outside edge, does that fix the problem?

I don't know because it doesn't seem to be in stock anywhere yet. (An odd mistake on Apple's part, as you certainly want all the accessories to arrive on the day that people buy their phone, otherwise they're much less likely to buy them).

What happens if you just insulate the phone from your hand with any other non-conductive material?

Then it stays at 5 bars no matter how I hold it.

I took a ziploc bag folded in half (therefore 4-ply) and wrapped it around the metal, and no matter how hard I squeeze it or cover it, the signal doesn't drop below 5 bars.

If not in at your Apple store, maybe a local issue, as they're in stock by the truckload at Apple stores nearby (NYC area).

With it on, the glass is separated from flat surfaces you set the phone on, and the phone looks less distinctive too (which can be a good thing).

Reports sent to Gizmodo seem to indicate that the bumpers do fix the problem: http://gizmodo.com/5571171/iphone-4-loses-reception-when-you...

It's not a big deal, just something to get used to

Excuse me? Not a big deal that my $1000 phone loses reception when I... hold it in my hand?

I've owned about 20 different phones now; from Nokia, Siemens, Sony Ericsson, HTC (G1) and BenQ. I remember exactly one that had a remotely similar issue like this, it was an older Nokia where the call quality would indeed reduce when you touched the upper back side with your hand (which is where the antenna was).

And let me tell you, even that was an major annoyance. Despite my hand rarely actually reaching up that far, I had quickly developed a habit to be very careful in holding the phone - always afraid to screw a call by holding it just casually.

This iPhone issue looks even more severe than that. In some of the videos it goes down to zero bars just by holding it normally.

That is simply not acceptable for a $1000 Phone. And much less for a $1000 Phone.

Well I've been making calls all day while "holding it in my hand." And I can even make calls all day while holding it my hand very tightly in that one spot that makes it drop to 1 bar. It's a complete non-issue for me, and I'm sure for many others. And it looks like installing any sort of case would eliminate the problem completely.

If I had known about this issue beforehand, I still would have bought the phone. It doesn't impede my usage in any way, and this is easily the best phone that I've owned, taking into considerations its positives and negatives. It's definitely worth it to me.

Of course you have the right to disagree, and if you already bought the phone and are dissatisfied, then I hope that you'll get a refund. But I think that you are exaggerating somewhat; you have to look at the overall package and function of a phone to determine if it's worth buying, and I don't think this issue is as severe as you're making it out to be.

Good video on Mac Rumors showing this issue:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=948533

Phone 4 Drops Calls when Left Corner is Touched

Tried it, can't reproduce it. Or any of the other "sure-fire" configurations people have claimed.

If it really is a hardware issue, it's probably due to a defect in some batches of phones. But for now I'm sticking to the most likely explanation, which is just that cell phones are finicky little beasties and people are quick to spot patterns where none exist.

I'm pretty sure large batches of phones that lose signal when held is a defect. I'm glad you can't reproduce it, it means that not all phones are defective. Many of the videos show the phones going from full bars to 1 or zero. This is not finicky but a defect.

This video shows one iPhone calling another when the phones are within a few inches, as close as 1 inch apart. It's frankly amazing that the call completes, and doesn't drop more often. This video isn't particularly reliable evidence of a problem. My own experience indicates that there is a high probability of serious radio frequency interference between two cell phones that are closer than about 10 or 12 inches to each other. Older phone models often had trouble within about 3 feet of another cell phone.

from the folks who could not reproduce the reception issue, i would be curious to know whether your body was grounded or not. for example, were you wearing sneakers with a rubber sole. did you have your free hand in your pocket or not touching something conductive? what would happen if you tried the same activity barefoot, or while you were touching a faucet or anything else that may be grounded. i'd be curious if individuals body's are, in-fact, changing the impedance of the antenna and rendering it less effective, or if its a combinaton of factors that contribute to the issue.

I stood up on a carpet floor, barefoot, holding the phone in my left hand in the "guaranteed to lose reception" position. And didn't lose reception. Repeated on tile, didn't lose reception. Repeated touching various conductive and non-conductive objects. Didn't lose reception.

As I've been saying since last night: if it's a defect, it's most likely a defect in some batches of phones and not fundamental to the design/present in all of them.

And now we know why other phone manufacturers haven't put the antenna on the outside.

As for a circular yellow tint appearing on a retina, maybe we should nick the medical fraternity's term for that: retinitis pigmentosa!

I'm trying to think of an Apple IPS display that hasn't had this issue to some extent. The iPhone4. The 27-inch iMac. The 24-inch LED display. My 2005-era 23" HD Cinema Display.

This is a manufacturing issue in which the multiple laminates which make up the display weren't perfectly sealed together. So it's possible for the display to pass initial quality control checks, but the reality is they're in the process of separating a bit. Odds are it'll slowly continue to separate over time, making the spot grow larger.

Apple has been hit or miss over replacing devices over the issue. On my Cinema Display - which was $1800 at the time - I received multiple (refurbished) replacements at the time, all of which exhibited the same issue. Eventually they gave up. Now the spot is about 2 square inches in size after 5 1/2 years. However there have been cases where replacement has been flatly denied and the customer was told there wasn't a problem.

The issue with iPhone 4's "yellow spots" may have a simple explanation. Users at Apple's forums have reported that the issue just "went away". Perhaps this post at the Apple Insider discussion forum sheds light on what's happening:

-- quote -- by user: austingaijin The yellow blotches will disappear Apple is using a bonding agent called Organofunctional Silane Z-6011 to bond the layers of glass. Apparently, Apple (or more likely Foxconn) is shipping these products so quickly that the evaporation process is not complete. However, after one or two days of use, especially with the screen on, will complete the evaporation process and the yellow "blotches" will disappear.

How do I know? I was involved in pitching Z-6011 to Apple. -- end quote--

Another demo video, using a more stable, conductive test sample, a key: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvH-i7rKPJc

Wow. If this is a hardware issue, it will cost a bomb to fix and delay production by weeks. Ouch.

No, Apple will make even more money by selling those overpriced plastic shells.

RF Happens

So lots of reports of defective phones that haven't even been released to the general public? Let's wait at least a week for a few tens of thousands of people to have them in hand across the US and can report in.

There were 600,000 pre-orders. Apple confirmed early delivery of online orders (July 23rd instead of 24th). I'd say there are a few number of iPhones in the wild now:

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/22/walmart-receives-iphone-...

Your logic is backwards, anyway; I'd be more worried if there were lots of reported problems with only a few iPhones in the market.

I'm assuming s/July/June/g ? Otherwise I'm confused. I'm not following the iPhone 4 coverage too closely.

I do not have this issue. In fact, I think it is a software problem. I made a call with perfectly clarity with 0 bars.

It's fine, people. Quit making a huge deal about nothing.

I bet more than 50 percent of the people voting on these answers are people without friggen iPhone 4s. Wanna know where the people with iPhone 4s are? They're playing with their new toys.

I have a blackberry - not a fanboy. I've watched multiple videos where data transfer rates dropped significantly when the antennae are touched in the same way making me think this is not just a software problem. Either way, software problems are big too - this is what tech blogs do.

edit: go check out Apple fanboy blogs/forums... you'll see panic there as well.

Why did I get down voted? Even IGM is having problems with their new iPhone and it does cause dropped calls:

http://www.insanely-great.com/news.php?id=11149

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that the constant fanboy angle on practically all Apple stories a) gets tiresome and b) takes away from the discussion of the article at hand.

You were probably down-voted because you committed a basic error in logic. Every single iPhone 4 is running the exact same software, iOS 4, so you contributed noise to the discussion, not insight.

You wrote: "I've watched multiple videos where data transfer rates dropped significantly when the antennae are touched in the same way making me think this is not just a software problem."

Reply on news.ycombinator.com