America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t
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Also, the pleasures available to the impoverished are by definition fewer and smaller than the wealthy. Cigarettes should appear undesirable by those than can easily afford superior enjoyable experiences. A pack of cigarettes is one of the most luxurious pleasures available if all you have is $5.
The poor aren't stupid. They are just making the best of poor hand they were dealt.
This also describes how a lot of people are poor.
This thinking also reeks of the 'just world fallacy', in which the predicament of the poor is deemed to be a deserved consequence of their moral failings.
You should expand your horizons.
> This also describes how a lot of people are poor.
I suppose we should be cheered by your qualification "a lot of," since it seems to indicate that you at least have to acknowledge your growing awareness that some, if not the majority nor vast majority, of the poor are there for structural reasons, rather than shortsightedness.
What of those who are there for reasons other than shortsightedness? What of those for whom shortsightedness is a result of mental health issues? What of those who can see ahead, but see no bright future and are making rational choices in the face of that?
Fortunately, having qualified your remarks in the way you have, you have opened yourself up to a responsibility to think critically about those whom you have dismissed. I wish you the best in that.
I don't think I dismissed anyone. People make bad decisions on things they are in control of and it makes them more poor. The rich have more self control -- maybe not. Those with good self control tend to be better off -- definitely.
I'm all for the argument that smoking is a rational choice for someone without a lot of money. There is also the compelling argument that poor impulse control, being poor and smoking have a strong correlation. Maybe even as a common cause for poverty and smoking.
Having watched friends spend entire paychecks drinking, smoking, having unprotected sex (with the inevitable consequences), buying new camaros at blistering interest rates, fleetingly fashionable clothes -- I somehow think that my choice to eat mountains of rice and beans and live with roommates somehow had something to do with my relative success.
Sure, you can tell some people it's not their fault, but absolving everyone of responsibility for their choices is not helping them at all.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/harm-reduc...
"Why have Swedes stopped smoking? Because Sweden has adopted a harm-reduction strategy: it has largely replaced deadly cigarettes with a product that supplies users with both nicotine and tobacco yet doesn’t increase the odds of dying the way smoking does. That product is called "snus" (rhymes with goose).
A modern iteration of snuff, snus are little pouches of moist tobacco placed under the upper lip. Scandinavians have been ingesting nicotine via smokeless tobacco since the early 18th century, a habit that changed only during the Second World War, when cigarettes became popular. Smoking peaked in 1980 in Sweden at 34 per cent of the population. Since then, the growing awareness of the dangers of smoking has brought about a steady, year-over-year reduction in the smoking rate, just as it has in much of the western world."
For an incredible overview of the benefits and harms of nicotine, see Gwen: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
Never got into smoking tobacco or weed, both just made me feel bad.
I guess it's one of those things that's so obvious no one actually says it. If you think about it, that benefit is never mentioned in debates about smoking and the appropriate government response. I know because I aggressively scour for such upsides, being the "hipster contrarian". Had I known about the pleasure and stimulation of smoking[3], you can bet I would bring it up every time!
Reminds me of "What Universal Human Experiences Are You Missing Without Realizing It?" [2]
Now you might ask, "Did it never seem strange to you that people would suck this disgusting tar into their lungs if it didn't at least feel good or something?"
Well, no. IME, people indulge in a lot of BS without obvious explanation. For example, people claim to like the taste of alcohol[ic drinks], and that is outright ridiculous -- or so I thought, but it was another case of [2]. Also, modern art.
My model of smokers was roughly that, they start doing it to look cool, and then get hooked, so that they have to smoke to fend off the pain of withdrawal. I didn't think the act could feel good itself!
Now that I think about it, people don't mention the good feeling of other drugs in debates about them either. For alcohol, I had a good explanation: those benefits are taboo, and people use the purported taste and refinement of their "fave bev" as "intellectual covering fire" for what they really want, the alcohol high.
In conclusion, the phenomenon in [2] is serious business!
[1] See, for example, the responses to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14569775
[2] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/17/what-universal-human-ex...
[3] Incidentally, I read Bostrom's Superintelligence, where he mentions writing the book while being powered by caffeine and nicotine, but I wrote that off (like most purported benefits of smoking) as psychosomatic.
Their are also significant social and signaling roles.
Until we can have an honest conversation about this, and actually embrace and continuing objective science on it, we aren't going to find the honest and effective solution -- whatever that may be.
There's nothing luxurious about smelling bad and getting a wicked cough. Unless you're already addicted, nearly anything under $5 is more luxurious than a cigarette. I just ate an orange that cost 50¢ and it was more luxurious than any cigarette I've ever smoked.
Completely subjective. I'm not sure the purpose of your post. Are you telling everyone what is more luxurious to them or just giving your singular opinion for yourself? Assuming the latter, it appears to add little to the discussion.
But regardless, wouldn't this be more appropriate as a reply to the parent, who made the initial claim that cigarettes are luxurious and didn't present any reasons for it?
I don't smoke cigarettes. I've probably smoked less than 100. I've smoked less than 40 cigars. I've spent maybe $100 on pipe tobacco total in my life, and most of it has gone stale. I've used a Hookah 5 times, just to round out my experience.
I'm not a smoker, but something about tobacco smoke just smells good to me, cigars and pipes mostly, but there are some good smelling brands of cigarettes.
>I've yet to find anything as enjoyable as a cigarette.
I've yet to find anything as a better trigger for happy, emotional memories of my departed grand mother as cigarettes that smell like her brand.
I don't know where I'm going with this, I guess I'm just saying there can be some appreciation of tobacco even if I don't think people should be smoking regularly at all, and that I possibly have very mixed up signals from 2nd hand exposure to nicotine as a child.
The buzz, alone, is intense and very pleasurable (though probably less so for regular smokers). There's a reason cigarettes and coffee (or alcohol) go so well together.
Which is why I can never casually indulge... I like it too much.
It sounds like I miss smoking. Just to make it clear, it is enjoyable but it is horrible habit not much different from meth & other illegal drugs.
I quit because I was finally getting addicted and it started to control me. I would be thinking about my next cigarette break at work or pausing a movie to take a smoke break while my wife waited for me inside. I thought I would never get addicted but it happens slowly but surely.
Given $5 for a pack, that's double the price. Expenses add up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_...
More on how this guy shaped modern advertising in Century of Self https://vimeo.com/10245146
Quitting isn't that hard. It's just super annoying.
Things like exercising regularly and eating properly take more discipline and willpower, for example.
From what I've read quitting smoking is one of the most difficult things to pull off in general (even compared to 'hard drugs'). Do you have any references in support of your view?
This fits what I have always heard: That education is more predictive of smoking than income. I am homeless, as are my two adult sons. We do not smoke. I have about six years of college.
Some random thoughts, in no particular order and not backed up by citations:
Smoking helps control depression. One anti-depression medication has a shockingly high side effect of causing people to stop smoking.
Smoking suppresses appetite. I strongly suspect this is one of the reasons that so many homeless people smoke: Because they sometimes don't eat for up to three days at a time.
Smoking also seems to be common in certain situations where it is the only stress relief. Many years ago, I volunteered at a homeless shelter in Vacaville, CA. All the employees seemed to smoke. They had enormous difficulty giving it up because there was nothing else to do on their breaks but either smoke or sit with co workers and talk, who were themselves smoking.
If you want to combat this, trying to education the least educated peoples is probably a better path than framing it as a poor vs rich thing. Poverty grows out of lack of education, but some very educated people don't have much money for various reasons.
I run the San Diego Homeless Survival Guide in part because I am convinced that good information is sorely lacking and is a genuine means to start solving the difficult problems of the poorest of the poor in the U.S.
Not to mention all the states with a lottery, which can also be thought of as a tax on poor people who are bad at math.
This seems like class warfare.
Whether it's part of a general attack on the poor is a separate question, but it does fit a pattern of punching downwards.
I smoked when I was younger, but I started as a teenager. (Intelligence test failed.)
Once you are addicted, it operates directly on the brain's reward mechanism, much the same way I imagine opiates would. It seems as vital and necessary as breathing. (I am generalizing from my experience, not everyone is affected as strongly as I was.) I am so glad I quit, and now it is more or less completely out of my system.
On the nine hour flight into Frankfurt, the airline had the flight attendants try to sell duty free cigarettes to the passengers. They walked up and down the aisles offering cheap cartons. Of course you can't smoke on the plane. As a former smoker, that must be torture to people who respond to nicotine the way I did.
I really hope smoking doesn't become cool again here in the U.S. I have kids, and I suspect they have inherited at least some of the tendency toward risk taking I had in my younger years.
France: 35.0 per 100,000
Note there's a very long lag time, and current cancer rates can reflect smoking habits from decades ago.
Slum dwellers and "city trash" on one hand, and 150 year old clean shaven organic vegan genetically modified uberlords on the other.
Warlocks vs Elois all over again...
https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2017/beyond-bls/income-and-heal...
They note that the average age of individuals in the middle- and high-income groups has increased since the 1976–80 period, while the average age of those in the low-income group has decreased. Ultimately, individuals from families with top incomes overwhelming report being in good health. Indeed, individuals in this group were more than twice as likely to report being in very good or excellent health than individuals in the bottom group.
If that isn't leading to the scenario described I don't know what you think it's leading to, but it can't be good.
Not sure what you mean by "hide", but you can sure avoid it. You can even have the worst slums next to incredibly luxurious millionaire houses -- like in India for example, without ever bothering to cross paths.
(An urbanist called Mike Davis has written some very important books on the subject I can recommend, e.g. concerning closed communities in LA, modern slums, privatisation of parts of public urban space to keep the poor out, etc.).
After technology removes another 10-15% of jobs, and we settle into global warming, the population should settle at ~3-4 billion, with ~80% of it being service and maintenance workers, and the rest as the controlling elite.
Think of a slogan like "Only the poor still smoke" or "it's what losers do" and how it would impact people. Suddenly you'd be embarrassed of being seen smoking.
And I still remember how she offered, just to be hospitable, some watered down fruit juice with like just a whiff of alcohol, and how she pointed to her super cheap cigarettes and said with a voice that was so full of cynicism and despair at the same time, that this was her only pleasure. I still remember that voice, the look her face had at that second, some kind of snarl -- not against me, they were so kind to me.. but against her fate I guess, and/or herself. It's impossible for me to describe, but indelible. Like all that misery, that is mostly pent up and that will follow her into the grave, escaping a bit in a short hiss. There is a German saying, to make a good face in a bad situation, and for just a split second, her face stopped doing that altogether, and I will never forget. God forbid that I do.
None of what I'm writing makes sense to anyone I'm sure, but I so wish I could describe the pang I felt then -- and the pang I felt just now, reading the suggestion that, basically, "they" are beyond help anyway, so let's make advertisements shaming people for smoking, so that those who still have something to lose might fear to be associated with those who don't. Would you also say this in the presence of "the" poor? If I could make one invention, it would be something that swaps the brains of humans around every 5 years, completely randomly. People would sober up rather quickly I'm sure.
A variation on that is that the world where you have no control over who you will be in it is the world that you should strive to create.
And a way to simulate it is social pressure I guess. That's what empathy is for, and why sometimes indignation is "righteous". Though in this case, I didn't mean my post so much as finger pointing, maybe it started with that impulse but I wouldn't want to "use" this anecdote for that, after all it was something that made and makes me deeply ashamed of how lightly I take all my luck and my wealth. In a good but still a bitter way that I insist is necessary. It only feels really bad as long as one isn't actively working on helping in some way, after all.
As long as someone isn't free, we're not free. No man is an island, and all that. I don't mean socialism, as long as everybody has dignity and basic necessities, I don't care if someone has a private space ship; I mean just not trampling on the little and the weak and the unfortunate. An idea that shouldn't just be admired as noble, but implemented thoroughly, while writing tests for it. Upgrade it from warning to error, yesterday preferably.
This can be a powerful driver. And if it gets people to stop smoking, which is a devastatingly unhealthy habit, well, I'm ok with that.
The "drugs aren't cool" campaign's have never really worked.
I'm sure it would eliminate smoking among kids almost entirely; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjsSVCLxcZ4
It's just building a social stigma about the use of the product - which happens to be based on facts.
Quite aside from which, as I mentioned before, this is already pretty much the attitude, and the natural response to contempt is resentment. I've gotten any number of sidelong looks and smartassed comments from people who seem to find it a trespass upon their persons that I happen to be smoking within their eyeshot, and I can't say it has made me any more inclined to quit than the perceptible effects of maintaining the habit already do.
Or, you know, even more determined than ever to smoke.
Psychology is not that simple.
(Some english guy, don't remember who, described the same reaction when someone like Princess Diana was on TV telling people to "Say no to drugs").
They know they are poor, everyone can see that they are poor, no need to point it out.
I'm sorry but this is facile. "Stress" and "problems" cause people to smoke only in the broadest sense of the word "cause". Something else is at work, here, and my hunch is that it's cultural. I've found that in much of blue-collar America, smoking is something of a status symbol.
> Advocacy groups say funding for smoking cessation is dropping
It seems like an uphill battle to let the tobacco industry tell everyone to smoke, and then try and undo that with anti-smoking campaigns. Is there a reason we can't rein in or eliminate tobacco advertising?
What always puzzles me is if the lower socioeconomic class is disproportionately affected by smoking and money issues, why are sin taxes the only political solution?
Some interesting fact on the quitting front, there are some vape shops that actually help people quit by gradually lowering the amount of nicotine over time.
It's much easier to profit of someone else's suffering if you convince yourself of their inhumanity or otherness.
To contrast, I was recently in South Africa at a wedding full of people of all ages (all white, though). We noted that out of 100+ guests only 2 were smokers. A recent study shows that the overall rate in both whites and blacks is about 15%, while in coloureds it is 40%. It's interesting because it shows more of a race divide rather than class divide.
This surprised me, too, the first time I went. Seeing 12 year olds smoking in public spaces was really, really bizarre. The only logical conclusion is that the German government and/or populace simply doesn't care about reducing cigarette usage.
> A recent study shows that the overall rate in both whites and blacks is about 15%, while in coloureds it is 40%.
What are "coloureds" in this context? Typically blacks would be categorized as "colored".
Worth knowing that "colored" is a loaded term in American vernacular, and may provoke strongly negative responses depending on context - I know that's not how you're using it, but many would not, and might take it amiss therefore. "Black" is a denotative equivalent lacking the same connotations, and what I'd recommend using instead in discourse with predominantly American interlocutors.
To your point, I gather there's a class divide along racial lines in South Africa, just as (albeit more sharply defined than) in the US, and would wonder whether that's more where the correlation lies. I think it must be here - that's my observation, at least, anecdotal though it be.
As an American I didn't know "colored" was used in South Africa and other than context I wouldn't have know that it was distinct from black. I'd be curious to know the difference.
In the US "colored" is an old and derogatory term for black. So your sentence reads like "X and Y are this, but Y is that" where one of the Ys is a word that isn't used.
I don't think they were trying to be mean or attack you, just give you a heads up on how many/most of HN may (miss)interpret your comment.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_in_Germany [2] http://edoc.rki.de/oa/articles/reEi8wDOV3B1g/PDF/25UH9cUwefu... page 4
Income Disparities in Absolute Cardiovascular Risk and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in the United States, 1999-2014 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28593301
This study shows that in the 15 years studied, only the smoking rate of high income individuals has decreased from 14% to about 9%. Those at the poverty level or below has remained about 36.5% who are smokers (some of those will be the mentally ill and/or substance abusers) and middle income is about 24% who are smokers.
Former NYC Mayor Mike Bloomberg with his latest donation of $360 million in December, now donated a total of $960 billion to combat tobacco in low- and middle-income countries (e.g. China, Russia, Bangladesh, but also Turkey). Bill Gates added another $125 million.
The plan is to implement the World Health Organization's (WHO) MPOWER program which has been implemented in NYC since 2001. Raising the cost of tobacco has over half the effect of getting people to quit or never start. Also very important is banning smoking in public places and hard-hitting, scary, advertisements spending about $1 to $2 per capita. Clinical interventions such as doctors speaking with patients about quitting, providing nicotine replacement therapy, and telephone counseling support are also important. But most of the gains are from the public policy initiatives.
A frustration I have with the healthcare system in the US is that too little is sent on public health interventions such as MPOWER compared with the spending on clinical interventions. If you want to lower healthcare costs, ultimately more effort has to be put in public health interventions which is much more scalable and more effective than clinical interventions.
Under ObamaCare, smokers can be charged premiums 50% higher than non-smokers because the healthcare costs of smoking are so high, yet most insurance plans don't charge the premium nor does the ObamaCare let insurers really verify if someone is a non-smoker.
If you want to lower the high costs of healthcare, nationally implement MPOWER in the US as well as other public health interventions. ObamaCare made a huge mistake when they did not implement the tobacco tax policies of Canada, UK, France and other nations which have universal care which is pay for the healthcare partially with high tobacco taxes in the range $5 to $7 per pack or more. Our federal tax is about $1. Raising that of these other nations would result in tens of billions of dollars for paying for healthcare while helping people, especially the poor, to quit smoking.
Statistically, empirically, which of those things actually work? I've heard time and time again that scary ads don't seem to do a damn thing, while raising prices actually seems to have an overly large impact.
http://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(07)60782-X/abstr...
> I've heard time and time again that scary ads don't seem to do a damn thing
Whenever the TV ads are run, a number of people call to quit. Dr. Frieden has given sworn testimony how cost effective the TV ads are.
Also, the Frieden, Bloomberg article I cited has additional information from a Lancet peer-reviewed article.
Raising prices in poor countries with unaccountable Governments smells a lot like serfdom. We should give to the world's poorest before we pick their pockets.
No, thuggish police killed Eric Garner. He was just doing basic arbitrage on tobacco tax differentials.
Perhaps in the past more rich smoked because it wasn't so manifest how bad smoking was for a person.
Also culture. In more well off circles being a smoker may raise an eyebrow or two now as opposed to the past.