Comment by kbenson | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kbenson | Hacker News Reader

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> Isn't that comparison unfair, given that AsciiDoc gives you more functionality in a curated whole?

I don't see how it's unfair. I think AsciiDoc is much more complex, by just about any metric you want to use. I'm not saying it's necessarily worse by many metrics, just that by the particular metric of getting average people to use it, and not just a random subset of it, Markdown's simplicity is beneficial.

> Nobody forces you do use all of them.

No, but for random internet user there's a real trade-off between what you're trying to accomplish and what it takes to accomplish it, when you're just trying to write a simple comment. Reddit has a link that says "formatting help" below the comment box, and when you click it, it shows every option you have for special formatting with examples in a table with nine rows and two columns, including the header. They could have chosen AsciiDoc, but then they would have to make a decision about what features to elevate to the quick help and which not to, and very possibly which to disallow for their use case.

Markdown is simple for users to use, simple for user to understand, simple for developers to implement, and simple for developers to decide about. That simplicity is both why it was adopted by developers and why users bothered to learn and use it. As I alluded to before, AsciiDoc may have been a better choice in the end, but I don't think it's quite as simple as AsciiDoc does more stuff, so it's better. It's all about the trade-offs, and there's been plenty of discussion on that[1] before, from both sides.

1: Just google "worse is better".

gruber's original markdown is "simple" because it's brain-dead.

which is why so many people had to "extend" it with different "flavors", which has now created a massive mess of inconsistencies.

sometimes worse is better. and sometimes it's just plain worse. and sometimes it's the worst kind of situation you could ever imagine.

There's a difference between something that's not good and something that just doesn't go far enough for your needs. If it were that brain-dead it wouldn't be extended, it would be replaced.

gruber's brain-dead version _has_ been replaced. by better versions. the problem is these "better versions" are all inconsistent with each other. and each of them has an installed base which insists that the egg be cracked on their preferred end.

if instead of adopting markdown, people would have extracted a small subset of asciidoc (which predated markdown) or restructured-text (which also predated markdown) to serve the brain-dead use-cases that markdown claimed, those subsets would've been just as "simple" to learn, but also leveraged more cleanly when people sought to extend the light-markup toolkit to longer-form documents.

but the blogosphere thought it was hot shit back then, and took great delight in pushing things viral. ergo markdown. so now we're stuck in a bad situation.

> gruber's brain-dead version _has_ been replaced. by better versions. the problem is these "better versions" are all inconsistent with each other.

They are all mostly consistent with the core markdown. They are inconsistent in their extensions. Markdown itself does have problems in that there was no formal spec, but that's mostly been resolved with CommonMark[1]. They even go so far as to document the different extensions that have been developed with their different syntaxes[2]. You might be tempted to call CommonMark a replacement, but it's not, it's really just a formalization of a spec based on Markdown.pl the the test suite that resolved some ambiguities.

> if instead of adopting markdown, people would have extracted a small subset of asciidoc (which predated markdown) or restructured-text (which also predated markdown)

In that case, why not Setext, which is from 1991? I'll tell you why, because Markdown was meant to codify already in use norms, and to emphasize readability over all else:

Readability, however, is emphasized above all else. A Markdown-formatted document should be publishable as-is, as plain text, without looking like it’s been marked up with tags or formatting instructions. While Markdown’s syntax has been influenced by several existing text-to-HTML filters — including Setext, atx, Textile, reStructuredText, Grutatext, and EtText — the single biggest source of inspiration for Markdown’s syntax is the format of plain text email.

To this end, Markdown’s syntax is comprised entirely of punctuation characters, which punctuation characters have been carefully chosen so as to look like what they mean. E.g., asterisks around a word actually look like emphasis. Markdown lists look like, well, lists. Even blockquotes look like quoted passages of text, assuming you’ve ever used email. - Markdown Syntax "Daring Fireball – Markdown – Syntax. 2013-06-13.[3]

> those subsets would've been just as "simple" to learn

I think not. For some, including me, markdown was almost zero-cost. It's how I wrote email.

> but the blogosphere thought it was hot shit back then, and took great delight in pushing things viral. ergo markdown.

I think that's highly simplistic, and ignores the realities. One of which is that it was pushed on Reddit, which has become one of the largest and most used sites on the internet. I find it hard to believe the blogospere opining on it (because it's not actually used on all that many blogs) has had more sway than them on this topic.

1: http://commonmark.org

2: https://github.com/jgm/CommonMark/wiki/Deployed-Extensions

3: http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#philosoph...

> They are all mostly consistent with the core markdown.

it's fairly easy to get the brain-dead part "right". even down to replicating gruber's original bugs and his corner-case complications.

> They are inconsistent in their extensions.

that's precisely my point. and the crux of the problem.

> Markdown was meant to codify already in use norms

markdown's markup did not differ significantly from that of asciidoc or restructured-text. all of them, including setext, leveraged existing conventions from e-mail and usenet.

> and to emphasize readability over all else

since nobody is meant to actually _read_ raw markdown, i've never understood why everyone cites that passage so religiously, other than that is part of the origin story mythology.

> I think that's highly simplistic, and ignores the realities.

due mostly to netnewswire, which installed gruber as its default mac-blogger, gruber's reach was phenomenal when blogging first went viral. if you don't understand the power of that reach at that time, it's probably because you weren't around. and that group of "cool internet kids" still flaunts itself, most notably recently in the nearly-immediate widespread uptake of json-feed.

the _only_ reason markdown was the choice of the masses was because it looked "easier" to a lazy tl;dr mentality. which is a false economy for which the light-markup revolution will have to continue to pay for years down the line.

well, that coupled with the fact that markdown has a catchy name. one cannot deny that. that helped too.

at any rate, kbenson, i'm off to a school reunion, so the last move here will be yours, if you choose to make it. we've hit the point of severely diminished returns anyway.

> since nobody is meant to actually _read_ raw markdown, i've never understood why everyone cites that passage so religiously, other than that is part of the origin story mythology.

Because that's not a universal feel, and some people do read it. I write a subset of markdown normally in text. I use asterisks for bold, use a hash for section headings, and use unordered and ordered lists as defined. I value that I write the same thing, and sometimes it's just text and sometimes it gets prettified, and I really don't need to care the majority of the time whether it does or not, because for the most part people understand the conventions used in the plain text.

Here's the kicker, in one job I designed a system to send email to customers that took advantage of this, and if you supplied a text message to email and the markdown version was different, automatically generated a multi-part email with the plain text part being the markdown, and the HTML part being the generated output from the markdown.

> due mostly to netnewswire, which installed gruber as its default mac-blogger, gruber's reach was phenomenal when blogging first went viral. if you don't understand the power of that reach at that time, it's probably because you weren't around. and that group of "cool internet kids" still flaunts itself, most notably recently in the nearly-immediate widespread uptake of json-feed.

I think you vastly overestimate the pull Gruber had over the general people at that time. I didn't know anything about him, but it wasn't because I wasn't around, I was already working in the industry. It was because I didn't have anything to do with Apple products and didn't care. Which is the same for most people. We're talking about three years pre-iphone here. Before the unibody macbook. Apple's core product that was tapping a wider audience was the iPod. If you weren't following Apple as a customer and fan, chances are you didn't know or care who Gruber was. I certainly didn't.

But Gruber wasn't the only author. Arron Schwartz invented it with him, and Aaron Schwartz was helping out an early Reddit a year later. Again, I think you vastly overestimate Gruber's role over actual use in popular sites, such as Reddit, and later Stack Overflow.

> well, that coupled with the fact that markdown has a catchy name. one cannot deny that. that helped too.

I won't deny that at all! I think that probably has more to do with it than Gruber's advocacy as well. :)

> at any rate, kbenson, i'm off to a school reunion

Enjoy! I've got another year before I have my 20th.

> we've hit the point of severely diminished returns anyway.

Agreed. We're really just refining our prior points but not making any headway in persuading each other.

back from the school reunion.

my only note now is that i was never trying to "persuade" you. or anyone else. think whatever you like, wrong or right.

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