Ask HN: How do you trust people? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How do you trust people?

37 points19eightyfour33 comments

About four years ago I started working on a startup and got some investment from relatives. After we hit our first milestone, the relatives reneged on their handshake commitment, and demanded more control, coupled with less outlay on their part. I didn't comply and it took me along time to process what happened. The most shocking thing for me was that I considered these people family, yet they behaved so treacherously. I couldn't accept it and lived in denial for a while, until I finally saw the truth that I couldn't even trust my own family.

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... A year or so later, I had developed a good relationship with some important operations people in this space, and while there were no commitments there was a custom of quid pro quo. I felt I could trust these people, since they had helped me out so many times. Then my business started to eat into the profits of a competitor, who, unbeknown to me, also had some sort of agreement with these folks. It was clear to me that there was a win win where we could all resolve to get what we wanted and I proposed we reach consensus. Instead of engaging on that, my former partners stonewalled and hired private investigators to try to pressure me into accepting a bad deal. I didn't comply and eventually prevailed, and it took me a long time to process what happened. The most shocking thing for me was that these people who I had built up such a good relationship with tried to betray and hurt me. I couldn't accept it had happened, and I lived in denial, continuing to extend them an olive branch, much longer than it probably worked for me to do so.

Around the same time, it was revealed that my partner who I had a formal agreement with, had known for years, trusted and considered family, had actually gone behind my back, while lying to my face, and began working with the former partners above, to make a deal for herself, to undermine my position from the inside.

Three big betrayals in as many years. By people who I had considered family and the ones I could actually trust. It has been very hard to deal with. Particularly hard was I remembered a time when I actually trusted people and I felt strong and life was good. But as soon as I showed some signs of weakness, it was like everyone I had been close to suddenly piled on to take advantage of it. It really felt like kicking me while I was down, by those whom I considered I could trust with everything.

But I still think of trust as something important, so my question is how do you handle betrayal by your inner circle, and how do you trust people, any people, not necessarily the betrayers, after you've known it?

There's no bullet proof way. Different people will do different thing, some people will be loyal to the end of time, others not so much. Sometimes not even in a pre calculated way, people go in thinking they will be super loyal, then something shifts, and they do things that undermine you. Also very hard when people strategize against you, there's no full proof way of doing things, just a lot of guidance to avoid known problems. History is full of stories of betrayal by inner circles... so you are not alone, just somewhat wiser to the nature of the beast

get a sense of people's motives and desires first. will they value friendship or $ when the time comes. Its strange that it is possible to have both, but the allure of more $ changes people.

Thanks, this is useful

First, let me say that, according to the events described, it sounds like you got a really, really raw deal. I feel for you.

Second, I'd like to remind you that there are decent human beings out there. I know that's hard to think of right now. Betrayal breaks not just the trust of one, but the closeness of all. God forbid you risk letting charlatans, monsters or animals-in-human-skin near you again. You have every right to be stingy with that trust.

For now, at least. Besides the obvious of watching out for warning signs, I would recommend gradually working up to your normal level of trust, starting first by re-establishing your faith in the decency of others. Those people who you may not know or even like, but who will when the pressure is on, do the morally upright thing at some cost of their own self-interest. It is the inner strength of the few good folks out there makes life just. Not all of humanity, just a part of it we may never even meet or never even hear about. If we don't have faith that those people exist, then we're done for.[1]

While I'm not religious, Judaism reifies this concept with the "Tzadik Nistar"[2]: at any given moment, thirty righteous people justify the world in God's eyes. If any of those people disappear and are not replaced, the world comes to an end.

Lastly, regardless of my previous advice, I would encourage you to at least know that there are people on here who have been in the same or similar boat. Some of us want to help, to listen and even to care. Yes, some commenters will either delight in your misfortune, or will dispense un empathetic bromides. But I would encourage you to ignore those cretins; they don't matter.

You matter and your faith in humanity matters. It is the key to trusting others again.

[1] Slightly political so feel free to ignore. People who've given up on decency in the world seem to think like this: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/10/donald-tru...

> Trump’s worldview, based on hundreds of interviews in the last year and a half, as well as an extensive, ongoing study of what he’s said and done for decades, is that everybody is out to get everybody. Life is a zero-sum struggle, and you’re on your own. For him to win, others must lose. “Man is the most vicious of all animals,” Trump told People in 1981.

> “The world is a horrible place,” he wrote in Think Big in 2007. “Lions kill for food, but people kill for sport. People try to kill you mentally, especially if you are on top. We all have friends who want everything we have. They want our money, our business, house, car, wife, and dog. Those are our friends. Our enemies are even worse! You have got to protect yourself in life.”

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzadikim_Nistarim#Their_purpos...

Thank you

1. Never mix business with family or friendship. Ever.

2. Get a good lawyer and sign airtight contracts. Leave nothing to trust.

1. PG specifically writes this in his Startup FAQ (www.paulgraham.com/startupfaq.html) "Most successful startups have more than one founder, and usually the founders seem to have been friends for at least a year before starting the company."

2. Yes.

Friend that you know for a year is not your brother/sister/uncle etc..

PG isn't God.

There are lots of reasons not to found with friends. Often, it's just that you're choosing someone you'd have fun working with over someone who's the right fit. Other times, your judgment is impaired by your affection for that person, and you can't determine whether they're a good fit or not.

Thanks, it's useful

You put yourself in a position to be bilked, and you got bilked. You need to not work on "handshake commitments" or "no commitments".

On a personal level, I find that simply accepting that people will hurt you, and deciding whether or not being an open, trusting person is worth the harm that might occur (I happen to think it is).

Limit the amount and degree of 'credit' you give people to what you can equanimously accept as a loss, expect people to occasionally violate that trust, plan for it, and understand that it is simply one of the costs of being a decent human being.

I never loan a book, I only give them away. If people later give them back, that's wonderful but not required. I don't ever let someone borrow something I wouldn't give them as a gift on the spot. In business, you either have full control, a negotiated agreement (which should cover things like how to make decisions when you disagree), or you're just a passenger along for the ride.

Thank you, paragraphs 2 & 3 are useful

You can't.

People minds are dynamic systems. Even if you trust a human now, you can never be sure what changes will occur in the future to make that human choose differently then expected based on previous experience - child sickness, family troubles, hormonal disturbances, environmental toxicity, parasites, whatever really ... anything can influence human behavior in radical manner.

Notice that time here is relevant. Given small enough time scale, you can definitely trust people. And vice-versa.

So, the question is not how to trust people, because you can't trust anybody given enough time, the question is how to plan things in your life so that broken trust isn't detrimental for your status.

Thanks, this is useful

Let me suggest you read some good negotiating books. "Getting to Yes" is research-based and a quick read. "The Mind and Heart of the Negotiator" is also research-based, but meatier.

There was an episode of some kid's show where there were two women who saw the future. The one who saw only bad outcomes was very happy because any time things went better than that, it was a pleasant surprise. The one who saw only good outcomes was miserable. She was constantly disappointed by life. It never lived up to her expectations.

So, I basically try to be the person who sees the bad outcomes in advance and then gets to be pleasantly surprised when it goes better than that. That isn't entirely accurate. I don't mean that I assume that all people are dreadful, but I do assume that people will tend to act in their own self interest, even if that means hurting me.

But I do try allow for the possibility of being pleasantly surprised. There are ways you can ruin the whole thing by hanging your crap on other people and signaling to them what rat bastards you assume them to be. So, don't go around TELLING everyone you expect them to be awful, but do be aware it is a possible outcome and account for it, to the best of your ability.

Also, trust is earned. People need to prove their trustworthiness. That is nothing you should give away too cheaply. You can observe how they act and make some inferences about how they are likely to act in the future based on past behavior. You can also "test" people by entrusting smaller things to them and see what they do with that before putting larger things on the table. It needs to be something genuine. You need to have some real skin in the game. But make sure to limit how much of your hide they can take if it goes south, until their actions show you they will protect your hide, even under difficult circumstances.

Thank you, this is useful

I do very long trips across multiple borders on a motorcycle, and on my way I try to meet as many people as I can. Counterintuitively, something about that really teaches you to trust people in a profound way. It may be that the motorcycle is making you come across less threatening, since you're obviously much less comfortable and in a more dangerous position than others, so perhaps it brings out the instinct to be kind and compassionate where normally people are cautious, competitive, and defensive. But it's a good exercise of experiencing how good the vast majority of humans are deep inside.

Thanks

I've been lucky enough to only be burned financially once, and the lesson I took away was simply, require a written contract.

You can find a lot of similar stories and advice on stackexchange: https://money.stackexchange.com/questions?sort=votes

If you want a friend, get a dog. It's a cliche at this point, but don't rely on business partners to be "friends". It sounds cynical, but it actually makes life smoother for all parties involved.

Thanks, useful

I think you're expecting too much of people.

I don't trust anyone but my parents to put me before their financial self interest. I don't even trust my siblings to do the same, and we aren't on bad terms, either.

The only reason they wouldn't "betray" you is if they saw more long term value in being in your good graces. It's not that they hate you. It's that they love themselves more than they care about you.

A close family friend is a notary dealing in family estates. From what I can tell about human nature, whenever there is money involved, people fight. Fighting between siblings over inheritance is basically the norm, something to be expected. Same goes for business partnerships where two friends decide they will own a restaurant together. And if they manage to not end up fighting, their families will when one of them dies. Something else to keep in mind.

Start small, not with a mission-critical investment or commitment. Build as you go. Go with someone with roots in the community and something to lose

I recently got fucked over by an ex-GF then long-time friend. Good Canadian girl. Daughter of a preacher. It can be hard to judge someone's character

Thanks

Trust is earned, so at the beginning you give people the benefit of the doubt and you have 'faith' that they are trustworthy. But don't call it trust. Trust takes time.

And regarding your 3 unfortunate betrayals, just remember: people can justify anything.

Money can change people. Especially when it's a life changing amount.

From my POV:

- Friends and family don't mix with business. Their perception of what happens will be different than yours.

- Handshakes are only as valuable as mutual self-interest. If you're doing business and need to hold people accountable, you need written contracts.

A friend is someone whom you have a mutual emotional attachment with. That connection is between you as individuals, not your business. To be successful in business relationships means that you need to be willing to walk away.

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

On a site like this most replies will take you at face value and try to comfort you. Alternative take: you are the common factor in all these supposed betrayals. If we asked the others, do you think we'd get different perspectives on what happened?

That's like what they said right after it happened: that I deserved to be treated like that. That it was my fault. And for along time I believed them. And I considered deeply how I could have done things that worked better.

In any situation, I am okay to take the blame and responsibility. So as long as as it's fair I'll own what's mine.

In this situations it took me a long time to see it wasn't fair. These people had exploited my willingness to own responsibility, and blamed their own actions on me, to disguise what they had done and avoid consequences for it. They also exploited their closeness to me, knowing that I would trust what they said, and likely shoulder blame they wanted to put on me. One reason I did that was because I just expected they would do the same for me in return, and we would each take responsibility and work out a win-win.

The hardest part for me was letting go of the idea that I could rely on these people. That took me a long time, one reason is because they were so close to me.

Now I've realized I need to be a lot more responsible with how I take responsibility for things, and not try to own stuff that's not my fault. And that I need to more quickly and robustly stand up for myself when people try to hurt me, and not let them dominate the narrative with lies. I used to think such things didn't matter, then I faced the consequences of being silent in the face of other people's bad behaviour and fake stories, and of trusting them to feel about me the same way I felt about them.

Anyway, it's good to take this opportunity to say this. It took me a long time to get to this point.

I had the exact same response after reading OPs post. I'd love to hear the other parties perspectives.

I didn't come here to out anyone, just to get some advice on how I recover from this emotionally and on strategies for protecting myself in future.

I've paraphrased the descriptions of the other people involved to protect their exact identities and relationships with me. The exact details reveal the worser extent of the betrayals.

I'm not going to out them here because it's not considerate of me to make the choice on their behalf, to expose who they are on HN.

I sympathize with the situation in general, but I'm not getting why you feel your relatives were treacherous.

It sounds like they regretted the verbal only, "handshake" investment, and wanted something in writing. That actually seems prudent. Is there more to that part of the story?

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