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Comment by ska | Hacker News Reader

Path dependence and all that, so I'm sure this is how things worked out for you.

People should be aware though, your example isn't even close to usual.

Work the numbers for a simple case - for round numbers take 100k/yr and 1000/month disposable. To do 8x that you are adding basically another 100k, post tax - so add another 35 k.

Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job. You may have an opportunity for a different job at 2.5 timed salary, but mostly people don't

Much more realistic is a 30% bump, which is still on the high end giving you a disposable income multiple of 2.5, which isn't bad.

Anyway, the numbers vary a bit with higher salary and rates, but mostly people won't see anywhere near 3x, let alone 8x - unless they are comparing very different jobs.

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> "Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job."

I'm a Canadian that moved to the US for work - this multiple sounds entirely plausible, in fact it sounds like a conservative estimate.

In major tech hubs the multiple is closer to 3-4x.

> "Much more realistic is a 30% bump"

This is not at all realistic - I know many Canadians working in the US as developers and all of them are making well in excess of 200% of their Canadian market rate.

You're characterizing Canadian tech salaries (in say, Vancouver or Toronto) as being moderately below US standards (~30%?), where in fact they are vastly below the standard in comparable markets (SFBA, Seattle, NYC, etc). The gap is already big for new grads, but it widens even further with experience. A dev with ~5+ years of experience can reasonably triple their salary moving south.

Yup, exactly. I mean, I can see it happening frequently the way the person who replied to me said it. If you're in a hot area in Canada that pays decently (I think Toronto is probably not bad, I never worked there), you probably can hit 100k? Then if you move in a tech hub and you're not all that, 135-140k is possible. Then your multiplier isn't that high.

But if you were making 70-80k in Canada then hit the US and do 200k + RSUs + bonus, you're in a much different world...and it can just keep going up and up and up and up, while up north you will hit a wall much sooner.

Especially because there is an entire category of dev jobs that simply don't exist in Canada: the $300-500k senior dev roles at institutional BigCos like Google, FB, MS, Apple, etc.

And if you are making 150k + RSUs + bonus in Canada do you really think you'll get a 3-4x larger offer in the US?

Again, I'm not denying that vastly more of these opportunities exist in the US, particularly in a few locations. But that doesn't factor into the majority of tech jobs on either side of the border.

It doesn't. And the average joe isn't going to move either.

However, the Waterloo software engineering graduate who's making 150k+RSU+bonus is probably nailing a Principal engineer position at a famous american tech company in SF/SV/NYC/Boston and is absolutely going to nail big bucks. Thats some superstar material right there. The only places I've seen that approached those numbers in Canada were Canadian offices of Wall street banks. And having worked for those companies in the past, superstar engineers at Morgan/Goldman in NYC made me look poor.

And i'm far from poor.

Yup. I'm also canadian that also moved down the US. That describes my experience perfectly. While rent also easily tripled (from Montreal to NYC) I can say I now manage to save what I'd make gross in Canada, with a better quality of life.

Being HN, you have to be careful of selection bias. I'm sure many of us know someone who left a 150k/yr job in Vancouver, say, for 400k in the valley. Or may be that someone.

But to suggest this is th norm for software jobs across both countries? The stats just don't support it.

3-4x is crazy. You make it sound like the US is crawling with tech jobs paying > 500k for mid-career jobs. It just not so.

You don't hear about senior-level jobs for $80,000 in major US markets though. In Canada they are quite common (and realistically only worth about 60,000 USD). I work remotely and I've been priced out of my own country. I occasionally take a Canadian gig and it is always about 50 percent of what I would make in USD and the client complains on and on about the cost (if they only knew).

Yup. I still have people poking me about Senior Lead Principal Architect Ninja Engineer positions and it's only been recently since those positions pop the 100-120k line in some areas.

During that time you have college grads in the states walking away if they don't get 100k as their first job in SF.

Now obviously if you take the hottest markets in Canada and compare them to mediocre markets in the US, the gap is much smaller, but that's usually not the move people are considering when this topic comes up.

For Canadians it's the status quo.

I was looking for my first job out of college, offers in Canada were 1/2 what they were in Seattle. Cost of living was lower than Vancouver. A TN visa was a low barrier. This story repeats over and over again.

Everyone in this thread is talking about Vancouver, which is a housing nightmare. The scene in other Canadian cities is more practical

Where? Toronto housing isn't cheap by Canadian standards, and salaries, while higher as far as I know, are not super high either.

Montreal is ridiculous since it is essentially NYC's favorite "nearshoring" . It's also big for game dev, which pays like crap even by Montreal standards.

Is it better in Edmonton? No idea. But with Vancouver/Montreal/Toronto out of the picture, that leaves precious few options.

Montreal rents are not too expensive, no.

There are other issues though

If you can learn a programming language you can learn to say bonjour and order a meal in French. I know, I have done this.

doesnt mean that you want to.

Correct, and that's not an issue (for me)

But the rigorous winters are one, also see my other comment in this thread

The OQLF breathing down our neck bitching we didn't translate every single piece of internal software we had and exclusively use Quebec layout keyboard was fucking annoying. They apply their rules in a discretionary fashion so it affects different companies differently, but having to fend them off continually is a pain.

The caliber of engineer is just bad too. There's always the occasional superstar teams, but it's really, really hard to find a good spot unless you have connections...and even if you do, 2 years later as personnel shifts it goes to hell again.

I would have taken a pay -cut- to work in a different city. Fortunately, you'll never have to since the salaries are so bad.

2.5x sounds about right post tax, post expenses, including higher rent, for the same role. That's already a huge difference

But as you mentioned, unless you compare different jobs: the same opportunities simply don't exist up there. Making 300k, 400k or more? Its certainly not common in NYC or SF, but if you try hard enough, and shoot for it, its possible. Up north? Maybe as an exec, but as an individual contributor or tech leadish style position? I wouldn't know where to start looking. While here there's a lot of options. There's not for everyone by a long shot, but they are there.

Thus 8x or more becomes possible. And someone like a top Waterloo engineering graduate has an above average chance at those. But I don't know where they would without moving country.

Seeing a noticeable bump in discretionary income after tax is very realistic - on average taxes are a bit lower, salaries are a bit higher. Seeing an 8-fold increase is unlikely.

You are right that there are many more top tier opportunities (although they do cost in Canada in small numbers) - but by definition nearly, this doesn't apply to most developers.

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