Risk it When You're Young | Hacker News Reader

Risk it When You're Young

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61 pointssophmonroe38 comments

There is nothing wrong with a year or three in industry. You'll be a much better coder, get exposed to problem domains outside the typical purview of twenty-something white and Asian males, build contacts, and improve your soft skills such as how to wear a suit and talk to people older than you outside of the teacher/student relationship. These things are enormously valuable.

If you're worried about getting spoiled by the huge paychecks, I recommend being a Japanese salaryman. We would never dream of inconveniencing you in that fashion. grins Seriously though, if you put $4k a month towards your student loans (or a savings account you solemnly promise not to touch) your $80k salary will feel like, what, $20k or so after the tax differential?

There is nothing wrong with being in the industry. But I have many friends who planned to go the startup route after "2 years of working to save some many". Most of them wouldn't be able to leave their job now because of their comfort in it (and say what you will, it IS a difference in lifestyle).

That's personal preference.

I lived like a college student for years after graduating with an EE degree. I just don't care much about material things, so for about 3 years I had no car, no furniture except a nice mattress, no expensive clothes, cooked my own meals, etc. Pretty much all my money outside my share of the rent & utilities went into a bank account and paying off student loans.

If you're comfortable living with very little, it's not hard to do. Honestly, if I could sell my house right now I'd totally restructure my life.

I wanted to "just try the industry for a year" before going back to school to do a PhD. I have ended up being a "Java Enterprise Douchebag" for years :-(

I strongly advise against trying a normal job. Everything you could learn you could learn faster by simply watching the movie "Office Space".

Agree with your sentiments on enterprise douchbaggery, you are probably undervaluing what you have learned: You still have a chance to learn how to milk the enterprise when roles are reversed.

You could work at a startup and get some of the same experience, depending on the startup's problem domain. With a small enough startup, you'll wear many hats, and get to make smaller decisions, which would lead to some of the skills you'll end up using when you're running your own show.

Sure, risk it when you're young, but don't think that the older you get the less risks you should take. It's just the opposite. The "old dogs, new tricks" adage is a fallacy designed to keep people in line. Don't believe it! Take risks when you're young, when you're middle-aged, and when you're old!

I think you should actually take more risks as you get older because you have a reduced amount of time to achieve things.

Usually when people say "take risks when you're young" they're not talking about age as the only factor. As people get older, they (often, not always) take on more responsibilities such as children or a mortgage. When you have kids, you have to be more careful about "risking it all", etc.

I agree that if you don't have other factors like kids or a mortgage, there's no reason you should take less risk, aside from the natural how-many-earning-years-left risk profile that people often follow with investments (ie. Most people shouldn't "risk it all" two years before they retire, etc.)

I agree - people should take risks at any age! I just don't think there is any reason to wait, and it can get harder with time

I'm 30 now and just getting going on this. My startup is just starting to get some nice sales traction.

I've never really understood the assessment of risk that people apply to starting a company. If my company fails when I start full time on it then I'll get a job in a week tops unless I decide to take some time off. My family won't ever notice the difference except when I have to get the insurance information changed with our doctors.

I have a wife who stays home with our daughter and another kid on the way. Maybe I'm delusional but it really doesn't seem very risky to me.

Most people couldn't get a job in a week. It'd take them months, sometimes even years if they had a high paying job that is hard to come by. This may be less applicable in our field, but it's a real issue for many workers in other fields.

To do what you suggest you'd also need to have some savings, unless your startup is already earning you the equivalent of your regular salary. Most people have debts, not savings.

It can be done of course, but there is definitely an element of risk involved unless you have some form of safety net.

What insurance did you change to for the startup?

For those of us in the US and over 30, I believe the $1600/mo health insurance bill (which may or may not cover everything for a family) is the single riskiest part of leaving the corp world, not the paycheck. It will likely stay this way for the next few years until the health reform takes effect.

I think there is a confusion between being young and having enough savings to last you for a year or two. Many young people have zero expenses and thus having two years saved up is easy. For older people, especially with kids, it means you actually have to keep a budget and save. The real goal is the same, having a buffer that lets you take long term bets and still have enough time to find a job in case they don't turn out OK.

I'm in the same boat as you are, a bit over 30 with a kid. Quite frankly, doing a startup now is a lot less risky. I've already done 2 startups before and worked at some incredible companies. And because maintaining that buffer is harder my wife and I have years of practical experience in planning a budget and tracking expenses.

What kind of job would you be looking to get back into in that week? Would you go back to what you were doing or would you go to anyone with a help wanted sign in the window? I ask because I have been looking to move out of my job and into something similar (video game library/embedded C++ development) for months now and there are few, if any, opportunities available.

If I could get my old job back (or similar) within that time frame I would quit tomorrow.

[anonymously posted; skip to paragraph 9 for TL; DR.]

I cannot concur enough. I, perhaps, within me, have an entrepreneurial spirit. However, I perhaps am different than most. I did not see any way to get into any industry at all where I was: I got sucked into a game design curriculum believing that since a big-name game company was helping with the structure, my community college would be able to differentiate.

I ended up dropping out, selling my car, and moving six states north. I had no idea what I was going to do. I knew a little bit of CSS, a little bit of HTML, and a smattering of JavaScript - mostly gathered from cut-and-pastes. I had been programming since I was six (starting with qBasic on my father's Gateway machine - ostensibly, to cheat on qBricks: I had asked my father how to cheat, and he handed me a qBasic manual. Off and on I'd programmed: lego logo [robotics] in secondary school; computer science through AP comp sci in high school, covering things as esoteric - back then, to me - as red/black trees).

But the only applicable knowledge I knew was how to make a site look good given a mockup.

After that diatribe, having not gone through explicit training: I wish I had. I do not know data structures, algorithms, and parsing the way I wish I did - the best I did is generate parsing trees based on math input (up to parens - no exponents there). The best datastructure I built was a red-black tree for my final AP comp-sci grade: I never took the AP test. I may have kicked ass with my sorting algorithm a year earlier (dad's book, Dragon Compiler Design, helped - after he pointed me to a certain chapter), but I had barely a grasp of what was going on in that class.

I have not taken a math course higher than college algrebra. Ask me to find dx/xy given y=x^2 and I can barely do it: I've been teaching myselve calculus over the past two months. It's been slow. Thank goodness for 'calculus made easy' - a HN recommendation.

I could wax poetic about what I might have done or what I might have been. But I won't.

You have had education I wish I had had, in retrospect. I have been programming JavaScript (and studying aspects of functional programming I had never even heard mention of 'til Hacker News) in a professional capacity since I left (forcefully: I kept falling asleep building not-even-agency-of-record landing pages for online university direct marketing; thankfully, my manager recognized how bored I was in the role) my first position here.

I have worked for companies large and small. I have ideas I'm sure I could never execute. But I am positive - and this is the [return to the beginning for the TL; DR]

TL;DR: I am positive I would not serve the quality of code I do now, had it not been for peers (mostly superiors) reviewing my code and commenting on how it could be done better. This had never happened during school, as we were all rushing to complete our assignments on time. This only happened when I was working on a team that recognized that the work I was doing was valuable. And that I was worth schooling on style, format, and efficiency.

I may be a (community! I'd started for an associates in arts - english!!) college drop-out, but everything I've learned being a full-time front-end (again: mostly JavaScript) developer has been surpassed again and again by what I learned behind the desk. I don't think I would be the developer I am now without some/most of the lessons taught to me. But I know I would not be the developer I am now without the peer involvement encouraged by working on a team populated by programmers much, much more knowledgeable than I.

Bottom line? Wish I would've gone to school, but shit I've learned professionally is invaluable. Don't underestimate it, and don't think 'apprenticing' isn't worth shit. Because it is.

Definitely do the things that you're passionate about, because you will only end up regretting and coming up with those "what-if" questions everyday. Do it anyway.

They WePay founders are right in a way. You do give up (or do not adapt) a certain lifestyle if you do choose the entrepreneurial path, but the long-term rewards are endless.

I agree. As they say "In 10 years you will regret more things you have not done than things you have"

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." - - Sydney Harris

And I vaguely remember seeing another similar quote from Churchill.

The sooner you risk it, the sooner you'll start learning.

Steve Hafner (founder of Expedia, Kayak) sums it up perfectly with the theory of a personal Drag Coefficient:

http://startupatwork.org/video/concept-of-drag-coefficients/

This applies to almost everyone: It will never be cheaper than it is today.

The older you get, the more responsibilities you take on. When you have a mortgage, a wife, kids, and car loans, you have to make your startup pay really fast. When you have little debt, can crash on your parents couch (if needed), and drive a crappy old car that is paid for, you can take extreme risks, and the payback can be tiny for the first few months or even a couple of years.

If you always live at the bleeding edge of your means then this is true. You'll set yourself up on a treadmill of expenses and never get off.

However, if you live well within your means and you make smart financial decisions then the reverse is true. Instead of building your debt you'll build up your savings and your assets. Someone who's just getting out of college and needs to spend money buying basic household goods, an automobile, and needs to pay down their student loans is in a much worse position than someone with savings who doesn't need to pay rent or a car payment because they've already paid off their mortgage and their cars.

I don't think it's responsible to advise people with negative cash to take big risks. Risk is for people with no debt and a year or two of living expenses in cash.

If you have a year or two of living expenses, a mortgage, and a family, it's a much bigger risk than if you have nothing...especially if "nothing" means very few big-ticket expenses.

If you have nothing, you are risking the opportunity cost of having a "real job". As long as you can find a way to support yourself (food and shelter), it's a good time to gamble.

> As long as you can find a way to support yourself

I'm not nearly so sanguine about most people's ability to make that happen. The kind of people who get into a seed funding program probably don't have to worry about living in mom's basement for three years before something comes together. I think that kind of penalty for failure would be way more common among most people than you're acknowledging.

almost everyone qualified to start a company has some sort of skill they can sell for $20-40 per hour (or far more). which is generally enough to pay rent.

If you would truly be homeless if you went bankrupt, then yes, it's not prudent.

But many of the people who would be in this position have a safety net if things go bad. They can default on their debt, move in with a friend or relative, and get a job and get back on their feet.

I'm kind of shocked at how casually you say 'They can default on their debt'. What a fcked up attitude.

I thought one of the biggest advantage of US financial system is for people to take risks with their business but can fail without a huge hit on their future, i.e. bankruptcy.

Without this attitude, you'll have people that is a lot more hesitant to start a business.

Yeah, there's been some research on this, showing a positive relationship between how "forgiving" a country's personal bankruptcy laws are and the level of entrepreneurship in that country: http://aler.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/ahn008v1

Taking undue risks is not a good thing. The greatest thing about a makret economy is that there is both profit and loss. Loss is to keep you from producing things no-one really wants, and is important. Without any risk, sure, people could do creative things they wouldn't have odne otherwise, sure. But you would soon see that the value produced in a society like that would be very small compared to a society where you have to turn a profit.

Wrong, because most of the debt at the age we're talking about are student loans which are non-dischargeable.

Sorry, reply was meant for the parent :(

What are they going to do, throw you in debtors' prison? Even in that case, all it really means is that you will have to work more to pay it (and the extra interest and penalties) off later.

There's no shame in defaulting on your debt because you tried to create a new economically productive company and failed. That's what bankruptcy is best used for. It's not like leasing a BMW.

one of our points was to start a company before you amass debt (mortgage, car payments, etc) though understandably many students have loans to pay back. a sad part of our consumer culture is that we generally never get out of debt until very late in our careers.

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