A new hypothesis in medicine: give patients drugs they know don’t work
vox.com
vox.com
In my mind what people who paid her were getting was something that they almost universally can't get inside the traditional medicine system here in the US at least, someone who cares.
Most encounters with doctors here in the US are 10 minutes or less at least for an office visit. If you have a lot of symptoms or back-story or whatever the doc might cut you off and ask questions and keep directing the conversation rather than hear you out. That might be an efficient use of their time, but it's not good for the placebo effect to work because part of that seems to be caring, wanting the patient to get better, doing things (even things we know won't work) to help.
This lady has I think only hour long appointments which are totally unheard of in the traditional system. It's not surprising that if the placebo effect is real that seeing someone who can really only care (or at least pretend to) could be effective.
As you can imagine, being less stressed is really hard when you have a chronic illness. This is exacerbated by doctors ignoring you. Having anyone spend an hour to help you in any way is such a relief. I wouldn't be surprised if this played a large role.
As another example, my wife and I have had six miscarriages. We're 25 and both healthy and the many doctors we've seen agree. Well if the doctors don't have a diagnosis, they don't wanna see you.
When it comes to recurrent miscarriage, there is no treatment. They suspect there are likely auto immune diseases we don't know about. Indeed, this seems likely. Most studies on potential treatments cannot be reliably replicated. The only thing that has been shown to reduce miscarriage risk in future pregnancies is tender loving care-- having a doctor who will talk with you for hours whenever you want, and being taken care of.
So now we see a new matronly obstetrician. She's a bit quirky but we feel like she won't abandon us like the other doctors did. Her appointments are multiple hours long, and she's happy being paged in the middle of the night when we've found out we're pregnant again. At 5 am when you find out you're pregnant after five miscarriages, nothing is more calming than a soothing voice on the telephone
This doctor has also encouraged us to seek out alternate practitioners, like acupuncturists and massage. She doesn't believe in their treatments working per se (she's an md and is happy providing real treatments), but I think she understands they these practitioners will at least make you feel calm and taken care of. Whereas I used to laugh at people who would see them before, I get it now.
When you have a medical condition that is chronic and there's no end in sight and no cure available, you need a friend more than a doctor, and unfortunately, there's not much overlap between the two
I think you mean "incurable." Not untreatable.
Otherwise, I sure wasted a lot of time memorizing immune modulators and autoimmune disease treatment protocols for my board exams.
And yes, doctors' job is diagnosis and treatment. If for whatever reason you're not a candidate for those two things, they have nothing to do for you. This is like complaining your IT guy isn't there to support you when your PC gets stolen by a house invasion. That's not what that relationship is.
But, yes, docs who take your money to pat you on the head rather than admit they can't help you aren't doing you any favors. Most docs are more ethical than that (and then get lambasted for "not wanting anything to do with you if they can't treat or diagnose you.")
Unfortunately, most doctors are basically giant hash tables mapping conditions to prescription drugs, sorted on the kickbacks you get from pharma companies.
My dad was in pharmaceutical sales for two plus decades -- I know all the tricks.
People running the trial really want you to complete the study. The payments are structured to encourage this, but the staff also try to be warm and friendly to encourage you to come back, and this (along with getting out of the house and checking something off a to-do list), helps lift people's mood.
Something else I believe is extraordinarily powerful is touch, and Reiki is one method formalising touch with professional intention. I think this is a good thing.
Doctors here in Australia are the same. 10 minute back to back appoints all week long. Back of the envelope calculation: my mechanic has spent more time with my car this year alone than I have spend with doctors my life to date. Fairly sure the mammalian bodies vastly more complicated than cars.
On a side note, my partner and I recently raised a dog, she's now 16 months old. I've currently got a mild respiratory tract infection which is worse for cold air and at night so I'm sleeping in the lounge room with the heat pump turned up so as not to disturb my partner with my coughing fits. The dog has been laying right up against me the whole night with her head resting on my arm or chest and has not made one complaint. When I get up, for whatever reason, she sits and watches me till I get back. She's warm, tolerant to a fault, never complains, misses us, always happy to see us. Dogs are the ultimate touch-healers. Just having some by your side whenever you need it, someone to play with whenever you want, is, in my experience, very powerful.
Sounds like they didn't give them pills that the patients "know don't work" as the Vox title states, but instead told the patients that trials showed that these pills did work just not through a chemically induced action.
A few months ago, despite the fact that both or dog and cat had long since died, my symptoms started to come back worse than ever. Things got so bad that at one point I was actually heading to the emergency room (I never made it because before we got there I threw up, which fixed the immediate problem). But that episode scared me enough that I made another doctors appointment.
There followed a truly bizarre confluence of circumstances: first, my wife fell down and broke her arm. Then my doctors office called to confirm my appointment, but my wife picked up the phone and thought it was her doctors office calling about her arm. She thought the appointment was for her, but she hadn't made an appointment, so she told them the appointment was a mistake an they should cancel it, which they did. I called to reschedule, and that delayed it for another few weeks. The day of my new appointment, my doctors office called and said they were running hours behind because of computer problems and needed to reschedule again. Bottom line: it has been several months now and I still haven't been able to see a doctor.
But here's the punch line: in the intervening time, my symptoms have completely disappeared. If I had been able to see a doctor, I would almost certainly have ascribed this positive outcome to any intervention she would have done. And yet there has been no intervention, but only because of these weird twists of fate that kept me from seeing my doctor. Moreover, I know there has been no intervention. And yet I suddenly feel better than I have in 15 years. It's really weird.
- Lewis Thomas, The Lives of a Cell (Among other achievements, he was dean of Yale Medical School and president of Sloan-Kettering. This collection of essays was published in 1974 and is absolutely prescient and fascinating - he offers profound thoughts on the nature of science, computing, and medicine that have stood the test of time astonishingly well.)
What makes this last episode interesting was that fate intervened to force me to do a control experiment, and the outcome has been dramatic: I feel as good (if not better) than immediately after all the prior interventions. In 15 years I have never had that happen if I just did nothing.
The FDA wouldn't go for it.
There's a few differences between these groups:
- People on the placebo pill were reminded about their illness at least once a day (when they took the pill), and can be expected to have special attention for their illness.
- People on the placebo pill were seeing a doctor, and had the prospect of going back to the doctor to evaluate their progress.
- For people NOT on the placebo pill, all hope was basically lost.
So perhaps "hope" (however small) is the underlying psychological effect causing this, or perhaps it's the attention from self.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/placebo-effects-without-dec...
Back in 1995, Dr. Andrew Weil wrote:
It is well known that belief in medicines can cause favorable outcomes even if the medicines are ineffective. This is the placebo response, which most doctors dislike because it muddies their experiments and seems inherently unscientific from the point of view of the biomedical model ... far from being a nuisance, it is, potentially, the greatest therapeutic ally doctors can find in their efforts to mitigate disease. [Spontaneous Healing]
I'm not saying that Weil describes exactly the same idea as Kaptchuk, but ideas in the same space were out there knocking around. Is Kaptchuk's idea truly radically different from what came before?
It seems to me Kaptchuk has varied one aspect of the experiment (eliminate double blindness, and even single blindness). Does that make it a radically new hypothesis?
Well, Kaptchuk at least tries to do science. Andrew Weil is a full-blown crank.
Back in 1995, a full-blown crank wrote:
It is well known that belief in medicines can cause favorable outcomes even if the medicines are ineffective. This is the placebo response, which most doctors dislike because it muddies their experiments and seems inherently unscientific from the point of view of the biomedical model ... far from being a nuisance, it is, potentially, the greatest therapeutic ally doctors can find in their efforts to mitigate disease.
I'm not saying that this full-blown crank describes exactly the same idea as Kaptchuk, but ideas in the same space were out there knocking around. Is Kaptchuk's idea truly radically different from what came before?
this is from 2016 Dec ( see "4.1 Limitations" )
"Open-label placebo treatment in chronic low back pain: a randomized controlled trial." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5113234/
"Conclusions Our data suggest that harnessing placebo effects without deception is possible in the context of a plausible rationale. More research on this possibility is warranted in cLBP and other conditions defined by self-appraisal."
"The effect of nothing? Time to abandon the concept of placebo" ( Traeger, Adrian C.; Kamper, Steven J. )
Pain: June 2017 - Volume 158 - Issue 6 - p 1179
doi: 10.1097/j.pain.0000000000000884
http://journals.lww.com/pain/Citation/2017/06000/The_effect_...
( "open image in new tab" to read )
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"Are placebo pills presented as experimental treatment a true placebo?" ( Mestre, Tiago A.; Ferreira, Joaquim J. )
Pain: March 2017 - Volume 158 - Issue 3 - p 535
doi: 10.1097/j.pain.0000000000000793
http://journals.lww.com/pain/Citation/2017/03000/Are_placebo...
( "open image in new tab" to read )
I'm pretty sure I know a few cases of self-administered placebos. When you are sick everyone has the wondercure, be it healthy food, some natural bee-wax-antibiotic, homepathy, "it's all just psychosomatic"/"there is allways a deeper reason for a sickness" or what not.
They probably all just need someone to bring camilla tea and a wet cloth for on the forehead :)
He clearly states that the placebo won't work in quantifiable illnesses because those quantifiable effects don't depend on the perception from your brain.
A lot of the illnesses they're talking about in the article, like IBS, lower back pain, and CFS have a strong psychosomatic component to it for a lot of people. They essentially say this in the article--something like "this won't work for malaria, but it will work for pain."
This can be a really controversial position, and it gets really twisted by a lot of people. No I'm not advocating mind-body dualism. What I'm saying is that there's top-down influences on physical symptom perception and that probably influences bottom-up processes, leading to some sort of vicious circle.
I think a lot of these psychosomatic conditions are really explained by the same processes involved in the nocebo effect. There have been studies to support this, showing that psychosomatic patients report more nocebo effects in control conditions than other patients and controls.
The idea you're discussing--reassurance effects--is interesting and actually really understudied I think. However, I think there's an equally plausible hypothesis, that you're kind of fighting negative psychosomatic effects with positive psychosomatic effects in certain situations.
I don't think that's all of the placebo effect, but I do think there's some broader causal system involved that encompasses placebo effects, nocebo effects, and psychosomatic illnesses and effects, including more psychosomatic psychiatric conditions (e.g., conversion disorder, psychogenic seizures, etc.), as well as psychological effects on disease process (e.g., stress effects on inflammation).
I kind of wish this area of research didn't get so bogged down with political infighting, which invariably happens. Patients start insisting that we're being dismissive by discussing psychosomatic processes, some researchers will spuriously start criticizing other researchers for advocating Cartesian dualism, as political smear tactic, when the real issues pertain to emergent processes and top-down mutual influences. It's a very interesting area of research with lots of potential, but tends to get oversimplified really quickly to score political points.
To put it in context, tho, it is an extremely rare kind of stroke (5/1,000,000 per year), so the select people having had this stroke might have pain medicine issues, but it is not a contributor of anything in the grand scheme of things.
[1] http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/category/podcast/skepti...
It's easy to ridicule homeopathy, and it certainly shouldn't be used for illnesses that are easy to treat. But, perhaps it could be a valid treatment for chronic, hard to treat conditions. It's certainly very elaborate and expensive.
This surprised me. I've been under the impression that the body's immune system could be modulated by the brain. The science has changed underneath my feet, I guess.
so, Kaptchuk's open-label placebo therapy appears to be centered on and limited to a person's subjective experience of their illness. that's all this is?
But those things can be debilitating, so anything that helps without causing harm is pretty important.
Plus this article is a fraud. The people it lists were killed by ignorance, neglect or their own informed choice, not by homeopathy. I don't think anybody has yet died of drinking a small amount of water and the guy you are harassing said nothing about giving up other treatments, just using homeopathy as placebo.
The problem is that you are trying too hard to convince everyone. For me, if I knew nothing about the topic, this in itself would be a huge red flag to distrust you. Slow down and make sure to attack the right people for the right reasons.
It's not true that all of this shit is low quality, I presume mainstream stuff advertised on TV like Oscillococcinum might be safe. It's not obvious that all of that is cynically designed to separate fools from their money, some of the vendors may be cranky enough to believe it or at the very least they may see it helping in some cases due to the placebo effect and conclude it must be good then. And every time you say something others know for sure to be false, you are undermining you own credibility.
Not all of it is low quality, but you don't find out which one is low quality until someone dies, because of the lack of serious controls.
> I presume mainstream stuff advertised on TV like Oscillococcinum might be safe.
It might be. OTOH, there have been fairly mainstream homeopathic products that weren't, such as one of the more popular homeopathic teething remedies.
Homeopathy is without exception useless nonsense. for example Oscillococcinum is duck offal diluted. The logic behind its operation doesn't even make sense in homeopathy land. Its the approximate equivalent of bad sci fi wherein having made up some imaginary laws of physics the author can't even stick to them properly.
I honestly don't know what algorithm you use to assess credibility. You suggest that you are put off by strong opinions but reassured by hearing about things on TV. You try to ascribe positive motives to modern day patent medicine scammers but distrust the motives of people angered such deceit.
Consider refining your judgment.
P.S. What did I say that you "know not to be true"?
Never said that, only that mass-manufactured stuff widely used for decades probably is safe or it should have been banned long ago.
> Its the approximate equivalent of bad sci fi wherein having made up some imaginary laws of physics the author can't even stick to them properly.
No argument here.
> You suggest that you are put off by strong opinions but reassured by hearing about things on TV.
Not really strong opinions but nagging and repeating things you've already posted without a word of explanation. Also, you stated as a fact that homeopathic drugs are of low quality without any sources or examples, it's the first time I'm hearing about this, why should I believe it if this kind of incidents aren't commonly reported afaik? At least dragonwriter was able to provide some example.
> P.S. What did I say that you "know not to be true"?
Nothing, but others may. You say it's a sham industry designed to part fools from their money, I know that there are people who religiously believe in this stuff, therefore there may be vendors who believe it too, somebody may know such vendors and then how does it make you look to them? And it's these people you need to convince, I have never used, produced, distributed or recommended homeopathic drugs and very likely never will.
I linked to a whole list of people that died or suffered via trusting alternative medicine. Anyone wanting further info can check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
Honestly though one shouldn't need to fully explain that homeopathy isn't real in the same fashion as its usually not required to explain why witchcraft, literal magic, young earth creationism, or voodoo isn't real.
I'm not trying to convince anyone silly enough to believe, I'm trying to discourage people from promoting it as benign.
Your site doesn't provide enough info to compare the rate of harm. For mild ailments, which is what I assumed OP was speaking of, homeopathic treatments might have a lower rate of harm.
Iatrogenesis is a possibility with any health care. And, to give your link credit, homeopathy certainly sounds like a dangerous route for serious conditions.
Also, real products claiming to be homeopathic medicines are very often provably not the homeopathic dilutions that they claim to be, which increases the risk factor of that approach.
Changing Mindsets to Enhance Treatment Effectiveness
JAMA. 2017 May 23;317(20):2063-2064. doi: 10.1001/jama.2017.4545.
https://mbl.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/crum_zuckerman_...
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You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine ( 09 February 2016 )
Jo Marchant asks if we can harness the mind to reduce side-effects and slash drug costs.
https://mosaicscience.com/story/medicine-without-the-medicin...
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The Vodka-Red-Bull Placebo Effect
People take more risks when downing caffeine-and-alcohol cocktails—but only if they know what they’re drinking.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/06/caffeine...
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Howe, L. Goyer, P., & Crum, A. (2017). Harnessing the Placebo Effect: Exploring the Influence of Physician Characteristics on Placebo Response. Health Psychology.
https://mbl.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/howegoyercrum_h...
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Crum, A., Phillips, D., Higgins, T. (2016). Transforming Water: Social Influence Moderates Psychological, Physiological, and Functional Response to a Placebo Product. PLOS One, 11(11).
https://mbl.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/crumetal_transf...
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Crum, A. & Phillips, D. (2015). Self-Fulfilling Prophesies, Placebo Effects, and the Social-Psychological Creation of Reality. In R. Scott and S. Kosslyn (Eds.), Emerging Trends in the Social and Behavioral Sciences. Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley and Sons.
https://mbl.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/crumphillips_em...
For minor ailments for which there are no real cure (and are probably entirely psychological) building a new habit covers up the old one and subsequently cures the patient's pain.