Music Biz Wants Google To Stop Linking To The Pirate Bay - TorrentFreak
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That is, they'd grant that such linking is illegal for the industry -- setting the exact precedent the rightsholders want -- but then strike a license that lets them continue linking on terms few others could manage.
If they include sites that exist expressly for illegal purposes as against their terms, a site whose name and purpose is based on piracy would be naturally de-indexed.
If you make software, or otherwise create stuff you'd like people to obey your terms for, this is a good thing.
If you:
* wouldn't like someone disobeying the GPL
* wouldn't like someone stealing your desktop app
* wouldn't like someone copying your web apps source to their own servers
* wouldn't like someone ripping off your CSS
then congratulations, you support IP. Having TPB de-indexed will help your fellow creatives.
When you're 15 and poor, stealing seems pretty reasonable. When you're 30 and make stuff, it isn't.
I think most people realize that copyright is prime example of regulatory capture, how else can obscene concepts like retroactive extension be endorsed and enacted with straight face. Second, look at how much leverage they have over industries that are significantly bigger than the entertainment industry.
Copyright is a flawed concept, as is much of intellectual property.
That's a side argument, which is irrelevant. The point is it's wrong.
> a lot of what your complaining about isn't even copyright violation
Plagiarism is copyright violation.
> copyright is prime example of regulatory capture, how else can obscene concepts like retroactive extension be endorsed and enacted with straight face.
I think most people don't really care one way or the other. But how is market share of distribution networks relevant to ethics? Doing something wrong to someone else who did something wrong is still wrong.
Plagiarism can be a copyright problem, but in this case I took the more appropriate fraud angle since I'm arguing that copyright is invalid and hence the problem is a fraud problem not a copyright problem.
Well the entire purpose of copyright is to "promote the progress of science and the useful arts", when media industry is crippling science and technology it becomes important. And your last point doesn't follow, I'm specifically saying that violating copyright isn't wrong. Just as abolitionists who refused to follow the fugitive slave act, weren't doing something wrong by refusing to send slaves back to the south.
So violating copyright isn't wrong, and it sure isn't stealing. Now it may be illegal, but during prohibition alcohol was illegal and drinking it also wasn't wrong just because some people said it was, so it is with copyright.
We are going to see major changes as digital technology rips through the media industry. Just as the shipping industry faced when container shipping started. For instance longshoremen unpacking and repacking pallets (completely useless and unnecessary make-work) was eliminated as locked containers moved from boat to train/truck. So to will the media industry lose control over distribution.
You're right. It's illegal. But this isn't one of the cases where the law differentiates from what's right for most human beings.
> Just as abolitionists who refused to follow the fugitive slave act, weren't doing something wrong by refusing to send slaves back to the south.
I'm sorry to use this language...wait, I won't. I'll be polite.
Do you make something? I've made something, so have my colleagues.
TPB distribute it when they're not allowed. Stuff I spent all those late nights on, and my colleagues the same.
Do you make anything? Do you use it to make income? How would you feel if I steal it?
Would that be wrong, or right?
Do.
You.
Think.
Stealing.
My.
Work.
Is.
Like.
Conscientious.
Objection.
To.
Punishing.
Escaped.
Slaves?
Don't just read that and then start typing. Think about it. Really think about it.
Do you, Daniel Gagne, feel that way? In your heart, in your brain? Do you genuinely agree with this analogy? Are you sure?
Or would you like to change your mind?
Second, you seem to confuse stealing with copying. Stealing means you've lost something i.e. no longer have it. This is clearly not the case with copying.
Third, the comparison to slavery was only to disprove your assertion "Doing something wrong to someone else who did something wrong is still wrong." It was in no attempting to compare the two, the injustice found in slavery is far more egregious than that of any IP case.
Do you think it's ok for a teacher to photocopy portions of a book or article to pass out to their students? This is allowed under the current system. Shouldn't each student be forced to buy the book or article? Are they stealing from the author? What about showing a clip from a movie? How does fair use apply to software? Why does fair use apply to other forms of creation but not software? Why don't mathematicians or physicist get to copyright their discoveries - i can't reuse the plot of a movie (hell, I can't even summarize it: http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/996/996.F2d.1366.92...), but I can reuse someone else's discoveries? This is not an easy issue. Do you think wikileaks should be shutdown since it posts material it shouldn't have? Why is it ok in some cases and not ok in others? How are the lines drawn?
Do I think that people should be compensated for their work? Of course I do; however, I do not think that copyright is the correct mechanism. Injustice is injustice and should not be left in place just because it's convenient. I think a better way would be to have those purchasing your software sign an agreement that if they distribute it without your permission they must pay X amount of dollars, for they are the only ones you have any legal claim on. I'm not trying to encourage piracy, but I am taking the position that copyright is not legitimate.
I think your stuck in a mindset in which people can be compensated only by through copyright, and I don't think that's the case. I can't predict what the business model that would eventually arise is going to look like. But I am certain one would emerge. Additionally, I think that majority of software developers are actually employed on applications that are not sold to the public commercially so perhaps large portions of the software industry would not even be effected (banking, aerospace, hr, etc).
As for the personal references, yes i create things and understand the effort and all that jazz. But once again, I think that the current system in unethical and will eventually be replaced, perhaps by thinking through it now we can hope to improve the situation and not re-architect the internet and destroy many civil liberties to try and keep an outdated business model going.
Copyright reform has nothing to do with advocating piracy. By advocating piracy, you are harming copyright reform.
TPB steal from:
* OReilly
* Red Hat
* Novell
* IBM
* The World of Goo people
* Trent Reznor
and other artists most people on HN agree are doing interesting things with copyright. Red Hat maintain a fucking list of patents they use to defend OSS against proprietary patent trolls! Yet TPB steals from them. You have no reason to buy an OReilly book if you can get it on TPB.
> Stealing means you've lost something i.e. no longer have it.
The common definition of stealing means you're taking something that isn't yours. I understand you disagree, but I don't care.
> Third, the comparison to slavery was only to disprove your assertion "Doing something wrong to someone else who did something wrong is still wrong."
Do you think you disproved that assertion?
> I'm not trying to encourage piracy
But you are encouraging piracy. You're defending The Pirate Bay. Which is a pirate site. Hence the name 'The Pirate Bay, the pictures of pirates, the jolly roger, and the stealing.
TPB, and TPP harm copyright reform. People who make stuff, and people who don't like stealing
But what Google is doing isn't like that. They aren't infringing copyright, instead they:
1. have a front page (which doesn't contain any copyright-infringing material) allowing people to type in search terms, upon which ...
2. Google display a page (which doesn't contain any copyright-infringing material) with links to others pages (which may include pages from TPB)
3. if you follow a link to one of those pages (which doesn't contain any copyright-infringing material) ...
4. and then from that page download a .torrent file (again, which doesn't contain any copyright-infringing material) ...
5. and feed the .torrent file into a BitTorrent client ...
6. then the BitTorrent client may copy some data across the internet in a way that breaches copyright.
Google are at least 6 steps away from breaching copyright. If what they are doing is deemed illegal, where will the music industry stop? At prosecuting miners for digging up ores using in making chips that make computers that might infringe copyright?
Do we really want to rewrite the fundamental architecture of the net, to take freedom away from the whole of humanity, just so the music industry can hang on to its obsolete business model for a few years longer?
* Google doesn't exist solely for the purposes of facilitating piracy.
* The pirate bay does.
The law makes a distinction (ask a lawyer) so only TPB is doing something illegal.
Q2. Is Google not applying its Terms of Service consistently?
Most likely - sites that break it's ToS are still indexed with high PageRank. This could be worth taking them to court over. I hope this happens - TPB illegally distributes materials that a lot of my colleagues worked very hard on, in clear violation of the law and Google's ToS.
The 'obsolete business model' arguments are irrelevant to whether something is illegal or not and waste both our time. TPB illegally distributes across all industries, including independent artists and major contributors to open source.
You shouldn't need me to explain why The Pirate Bay exists for piracy. If you do, I suggest we end this conversation.
In this instance, nothing TPB did would be copyright infringement or indudcement thereof. Now ask yourself the question: would the owners of TPB shut the site down, or keep it running.
If they would shut it down, then TPB exists for the purpose of copyright infringement.
If they would keep it up, then TPB exists for the purpose of facilitating transfer of content, and any copyuright infringement involved is a side-issue as far as the owners of TPB are concerned.
I think they would keep it up.
If copyright law stopped existing, and authors could no longer be compensated for what they'd made, TPB would stagnate:
* There would be no incentive to run servers in exotic locations (Sealand, Saudi Arabia, etc) that don't respect creators rights.
* Sites that own content would distribute their own data so it could be released and consumed quicker (it would probably be ad-supported since selling IP isn't possible anymore)
* There would be no need to pirate anything as nobody has to pay for anything anymore.
The domain would expire, or the servers have a prob, or the hosting bills come in, and not get fixed/paid as there'd be no point to stealing anything anymore.
Haven't we already established that this is a red herring in light of all the content that people create for no money every day? I'd provide a list, but reminding people of this just gets exhausting. Just because some people wouldn't consider it worthwhile to create because they don't get paid doesn't mean that creation would stop, it just means that the stuff that gets created by people who don't see a need in getting paid would rise to increased prominence and be recognized as such.
Direct payment is still the best option to make money from creativity. Things made for free reward their authors in other ways;
* sponsorship payments
* promotion of the authors (common with short films)
* raising awareness of issues
* promoting subsequent paid sequels (eg, NIN)
As anyone who's run a website known, it's a lot harder to fund a business with these models than with direct payment. If direct payment for works was no longer an option, the current non-direct providers would struggle with an influx of high quality, well funded competitors.
* Independent, low budget musicians would have to compete for sponsorship and venues with established acts suddenly doing gigs for free.
* Indie gamewriters would have to compete for cash against giant game companies with high-end 3D engines giving away the latest games with in-game ads.
* Authors that write books and companies that do training courses might just give up completely, and not write books, since ads don't work very well for OReilly.
* OSS companies that give away their source and sell a binary compilation and update services would have to find a business model.
TPB is already making these things happen today. That's why people who make things know they're bad.
Emotive language aside, if kids can't sample your wares at 15 will they buy them at 30? Back in my teens I went through a phase of taping music off the radio, and many of the same concerns were expressed by the music industry about cassette tapes as about downloads today; the same applies to videotapes. As I got older and had a bit more money available I spent a decent amount of it on records and books; in my 20s I became a pretty heavy media consumer, and probably spent >$5000 on CDs. This declined substantially during my 30s, although I think this was just a factor of getting older and not being so focused on music and socializing (I don't download music).
As Dantheman points out, copyright has given rise to some astonishingly poor legislation. As someone working in the arts (and who has had my IP ripped off in a serious way in the past), I strongly support the basic concept of copyright: of course I want to derive some benefit from my creative output, if there is any money to be had from its distribution.
But copyright holders have substantially abused this. Although I don't see it as an example of regulatory capture (because I think there is a legitimate property right in authorship), things like retroactive extension of copyright and the extremely anti-competitive behavior of the publishing industry have substantially undermined public respect for the underlying concept. Artificial limitation on supply and consequent price maintenance have gradually increased people's awareness of IP as a commodity. As a teen in the 80s I was aware of copyright and the idea of royalties, but like many people bought into the idea that they represented only a small part of the cost to the consumer: if I purchased a 7" single with a new song by my favorite band, my belief was that the cost was broken out approximately evenly between the retailer, distributor, packager, pressing plant, publisher, recording studio and the artist, all of whom were being compensated in proportion to their economic contribution. In actual fact, the creative and mechanical contributors were generally getting paid the smallest share, and the bulk of profits went to the parties with the strongest contractual position. This had been a perennial grumble of authors vs. publishers for years, but publishers had always had the argument that without their financial advances and distribution mechanisms, creatives and consumers would be unable to produce or obtain quality work. Technologically, this seemed to make sense: nothing I could achieve playing around with my cassette recorder could compare to the quality of a record or CD, and when it came to writing, the content I created and sometimes sold looked like nothing special as it emerged from my typewriter or dot matrix printer: only a publisher, it seemed, wielded the awesome financial muscle to command the appearance of my words in an actual magazine or book, where people would pay money to read it.
The internet, though, changed things in a number of ways. Interesting content was to be found all over, and on a computer your output looks no better or worse than mine, so the magical link between form and content was broken. Further, since the normal hierarchy of communication ('want to join the XYZ fanclub? Send your check to Big Publisher, 123 Business Street, Capital city!') was drastically flattened, it became possible to converse with and later meet established artists who were previously socially remote - in my case that meant people like Douglas Adams and Terry Pratchett, as well as various UK tech writers, for others the musical or visual artists they were fans of, and so on. And as the communication barriers melted away, it turned out that a majority of successful creative people didn't like their publishers very much and only received a pittance of what the fans were spending on their material. As time went by it became increasingly obvious that while technological change was making the means of production cheaper and more accessible, but the publishing industry wasn't passing those savings onto the consumer; if anything, prices were going up.
This is still the case in many fields: book publishing is fast approaching collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Some years ago, Penguin books celebrated its 60th anniversary by producing 60 classic books by historical authors, for 60 pence (about $1) each - leading to some red faces when people asked why, if printing was in fact so cheap, they usually charged so much more. Indeed, I was in a bookshop the other day browsing through the history section, and was unable to think of a reason why I would want to pay $15-$20 for copies of the Federalist Papers or Homer's Odyssey - most of the purchase price is essentially back rent for the space the volume has been taking up in warehouses and on shelves. I'm even more uncertain why (some) publishers expect people to pay almost $10 for Kindle editions of works in the public domain.
Now, these technological changes came to a head during the 1990s. Near the beginning of the decade CD-ROMs and then CD writers became available, and after the initial wave of 'shovelware' musicians and programmers naturally began thinking that there really wasn't a whole lot of difference between a shiny disc pressed in a factory and one burned in the living room. Laser printers and WYSIWYG software had enough font and layout capability to make quite nice-looking printed matter, if only in black and white, and digital camcorders began to quietly revolutionize the film industry, by both killing the resale price for 16mm film cameras and allowing the possibility of no-budget movies which appealed to a younger audience. Technology continued to improve and as the end of the decade approached the idea of producing your very own book, album, or even a movie without spending a fortune was suddenly realistic, resulting in an avalanche of digital micro-publishing. There was a fair degree of copyright abuse too, but broadband was slow by today's standards and the 56k modem was still the interface of choice for most homeowners; internet piracy was inherently limited by the relatively slow rate of data transfer, but the writing was already on the wall for conventional publishers. And so, they seized the moment, and gave us...
...20 year copyright extensions, first within the EU and soon afterwards, the US. Rather than governments seeking to gain authority over private market activity in order to collect economic rents (the definition of regulatory capture), copyright holders exerted their economic muscle to persuade governments to extend the term and enforcement of title to intellectual property. Not only would holders continue to collect economic rents by not surrendering their IP into the public domain, but they would enjoy increased security and enforcement of said rents at public expense. As a result, (most) work created after 1923 won't enter the public domain until 2019 - assuming, of course, that copyright isn't extended again, since Mickey Mouse will probably be worth at least as much to Disney in 2023 as he is presently. Proponents of copyright extension have argued that as human lifespans have gotten longer, and that storage media have improved in quality, so too should the longevity of intellectual property - notwithstanding the facts that the rate of economic activity is independent of economic agents' lifespan (and indeed, that longer lifespans actually create deeper markets), and that the term of patents has remained fixed at 20 years without any noticeable dilution of or brake upon industrial innovation and economic growth.
Many advocates of strict IP enforcement (not you) erroneously employ the term 'stealing' to draw an analogy with the theft of tangible property, which act denies the property's use to the owner. The common formulation is 'how would you feel if someone stole your car - downloading movies is the same thing.' For those who adhere to such a view, I invite you to consider the same metaphor from the opposite perspective: a publisher parks their car in an empty, publicly owned parking lot, and rents it out to people for short drives. The law protects their ownership of the car and their right to exploit it for commercial gain - with the nominal understanding that one day, they will pay for their free use of the lot and the police protection that comes with it by allowing people to take free rides in the car. But in practice, not only do they never release their title to the car, they lay claim to ownership of the parking lot too, demanding that the public bear the costs of protecting their asset and that this situation should continue in perpetuity.
So - while I don't participate in media piracy nor endorse the concept, nor do I have a great deal of sympathy for the major economic stakeholders or the market distortions resulting from their attempts to extract endless rents. I am far more supportive of using public resources to enforce ownership rights in IP which is voluntary limited by the rights-holder in either span or scope (such as some creative commons or copyleft material).
Sorry for this lengthy screed - as you can see, this is an issue I feel strongly about.
I share both these opinions. But they're not in conflict with each other here - TPB doesn't discriminate between copyright holders that are good people and those that are bad.
Very well thought-out comment otherwise, though.
Bizarrely, I found myself defending the selfsame legislation 2 hours after my grumbles above, though for quite different reasons. If you are interested: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1453496
Also if google does ban them, there will be other search engines that do index such sites; it really doesn't solve anything really.
This seems absurd, however I do wonder what the percentage of files hosted on these sites are copyrighted.
It's a site that calls itself "The Pirate Bay." They don't have much of a defense in the way of legitimate (legal) use cases, but I strongly disagree with legislating results out of a general-purpose search engine.
I honestly do not see this going anywhere. As much as I disagree with almost everything the DMCA stands for, safe harbor provisions were included for exactly this reason.
So? I belong to a political party called "the Pirate Party", doesn't mean I'm breaking the law.
* I didn't give you permission to steal my work to advance any objective.
I think you've created a manifesto to justify stealing things, because you like stealing things.
b) Regardless whether you personally define stealing my work as being theft or not, does that make it less wrong? Because I strongly suspect that's what you're implying.
You still haven't responded to how equating copyright reform with piracy helps copyright reform in any way.
But even then, I doubt that 1% would be non-copyrighted.