Amazon Drive removing unlimited storage plan
amazon.com
amazon.com
This strategy is the worst possible scenario for our entire industry. Users feel slighted, and the trustworthiness of the cloud in general is gradually eroded, as the scenario plays itself out over and over.
It feels like ransomware. Pay more or we'll delete your files.
When Dropbox for Business launched, it was $12.50 / user / month for "all the storage you need". Just recently Dropbox announced pricing changes, which will take effect in 2018. The new unlimited plan is $20.00 / user / month. And for those unwilling to pay, there's now a fixed storage tier, which is slightly cheaper than the original price, but it's capped at 1 TB.
Microsoft OneDrive included unlimited storage with any Office 365 subscription. After millions of users bought in, Microsoft dropped the maximum storage to 1 TB. Users were then given the choice of deleting their files, or moving elsewhere.
Mozy had an unlimited plan, and then dropped it and raised prices. SugarSync had an unlimited plan, but eventually dropped it.
Barracuda offered virtually unlimited cloud storage with their Copy.com service. A few years in and Barracuda shut down the entire service. Users were given very little notice, and had to move elsewhere.
Bitcasa, one of the original "unlimited" cloud storage providers (and a TechCrunch Disrupt Battlefield finalist) crashed and burned three years in. Again, users were given very little notice, and there was talk of a class-action lawsuit.
Time and time again we're seeing startups burn through their capital subsidizing the storage as some sort of brilliant marketing plan. It's not.
Disclaimer, I work at https://www.sync.com
That would be a terrible way to treat customers. Customers will simply lose the ability to upload new files. All their existing content will still be there.
Looks like that's not the route Amazon took.
Granted that's more difficult to do today as more players have embraced the concept. Google Photos (formerly Picasa) came out with unlimited storage for photos, and Amazon Cloud Drive is a response to that. ACD still offers unlimited photos, but they should never have tried offering unlimited "other files" storage. They have been doing cloud storage to technically adept people for years. I don't know why they thought they could offer a rather similar service, mark it as unlimited, and not expect people to use the cheap unlimited option over their per-use pricing plan.
But duuuude. How much did you pay for that domain?! NOICE.
Then a few months later, one of our team members inadvertently visited Sync.com (a common Freudian domain name slip for all of us), and discovered the domain was up for auction. Instead of subsidizing our storage, like most of our competition was doing at the time, we diverted a substantial portion of our marketing budget towards winning the auction ;-)
It wasn't cheap.
The ugly fact is the Unlimited Amazon Drive has been abused by media pirates and data-hoarders to store up to 20TB (and sometimes more) at what any reasonable person would say is an unreasonable cost. Not to mention, much of this media is accessed and streamed often. Wander over to /r/PlexShares to get an idea: imagine if someone had 20TB of 4K and BluRay movies stored on your service @ a very generous $60/yr, streaming that data 24/7 to 10, 15, maybe 20 people via Plex (with each streamer paying the media manager $10 a month) all over the world. While torrenting all day. Suddenly that sounds more like abuse IMO.
Of course, I agree that you shouldn't call something "Unlimited" if it isn't. But it's not a one-sided issue and I thought I'd bring that up. I don't personally know anyone, in real life, who uses Amazon Drive. Most people don't even know it exists. The only time I see it discussed, especially the "unlimited" tier, is on /r/datahoarders and /r/seedboxes as an exploitable deal.
As far as I can tell, Prime Photos will remain unlimited. I wonder how long it'll be before media hoarders hide their content in Google/Prime Photos with a convenient CLI tool?
If you offer unlimited, expect people to take advantage.
Somebody on reddit bragged about reaching more than 1PB [0]
> Of course, I agree that you shouldn't call something "Unlimited" if it isn't.
I am maybe nitpicking, but it really was unlimited. Nobody is being billed for exceeding a given threshold or stopped from using it. The service is being discontinued and people will not be able to renew it. They never said "forever" :-).
It's like I got a special deal from my gym for unlimited access. If next year they won't offer it anymore I cannot say "it was not unlimited".
> As far as I can tell, Prime Photos will remain unlimited. I wonder how long it'll be before media hoarders hide their content in Google/Prime Photos with a convenient CLI tool?
In another thread on reddit somebody was already talking about that, so I guess it won't be long.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/5s7q04/i_hit_a...
I don't think this analogy works. If you used a lot of space, or really any space over the amount that they change to as the upper limit, that data is now at risk. Some places will make it read only until you move it off (up to a certain amount). Most will simply delete it after a certain amount of time if you don't move it.
Your gym can't really take back an amount of your previous, unlimited usage of the gym. If you have legit uses where you're way over the limit this can pose a real issue. I ran into this when storing photos and videos on Microsoft's OneDrive after they lowered the crazy high amount they were given...I eventually decided to pay the higher fees to cover my data so I wouldn't lose it until I had more time to move it all off.
I no longer use OneDrive.
That is a very anti-consumer way of looking at it. Storage, especially for businesses, is not like a gym membership. These bait and switch tactics are harmful for the consumer as well as the industry itself.
You place a certain trust with data storage companies. Alot of media companies can easily have 30 terabytes of data to backup or share. They kill the unlimited plan with essentially a price hike. Now I am wondering "when is the next price hike coming"?
Amazon has already cut their CLI interface and their web interface is terrible. I would rather just keep it on a NAS with NextCloud.
I think the point is that now we know not to.
> The consumer can choose to stay or leave. . It's difficult to leave, but it's the same kind of deal when your apartment's lease is not renewed. I can't really see this as anti-consumer
Your argument is simply: consumers deal with something like this for an unrelated industry so it is not anti-consumer. That is not a good argument.
edit: also, renting is a very poor example. There are laws that govern how much rent can be raised that vary based on jurisdiction. If renting wasn't anti-consumer why would such laws exist? No such laws against gouging against for data storage which undermines your argument.
The point of the comparison was to stress the fact that unlimited amount of space doesn't necessarily mean for an unlimited amount of time.
> Storage, especially for businesses, is not like a gym membership.
I though that the unlimited plan was only for personal use. If it was open to businesses I understand why it became so quickly a money sink for Amazon.
Unlimited in the computing world usually has practical limits many orders of magnitude above normal usage, making outliers much, much more expensive. But you can't substantially increase the price because you can't afford to lose your normal customers and be left with only outliers.
It's totally a one sided issue. Abuse and fraud are not specific to Amazon, they are attempted at every business and industry under the sun.
It's just not credible to believe they initially thought the offer was long term sustainable without any limitations, protective terminations for abuse, etc. This is no more complex than what it appears. A deliberate, and effective, marketing campaign that would eventually have to come to an end.
Maybe they could at least use some kind of old school caveat like "while supplies last", or "until the rate of user acquisition is strategically outweighed by the subsidies required to absorb our losses".
That's 4 PCs worth of content without going over the limit, and post non-technical users are probably using even less than that.
They could probably account for outliers using way more, but as long as most users were "average" users backing up word docs and family pictures they'd be fine.
The problem is "data horders" latched on much harder than average users. I wouldn't be surprised if most of those "average" users aren't affected by this change at all. I can't imagine my non-technical parents (for example) generating 1TB of data to back up very easily at all.
To me unlimited is impossible right off the bat if you want to take it literally (there must be some finite limit to how much free storage Amazon has). Both sides in the agreement have some definition of unlimited that is less that unlimited, and to me hosting TBs of pirated content and porn is going past what a reasonable definition of unlimited and turning into abuse. If only the minority of users with legitimate TBs of data of their own creation to back up had used it I doubt AWS would have had trouble profiting without storage limits. But with people abusing it (or using it as piracy storage or mass internet backups if you want to claim that's not abuse) I don't see why they shouldn't have put an end to the plan.
It is not and never was. Check TOS
> 5.2 Suspension and Termination. Your rights under the Agreement will automatically terminate without notice if you fail to comply with its terms. We may terminate the Agreement or restrict, suspend, or terminate your use of the Services at our discretion without notice at any time, including if we determine that your use violates the Agreement, is improper, substantially exceeds or differs from normal use by other users, or otherwise involves fraud or misuse of the Services or harms our interests or those of another user of the Services. If your Service Plan is restricted, suspended, or terminated, you may be unable to access Your Files and you will not receive any refund of fees or any other compensation.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
Sure they did. Saw plenty of people complaining about it on r/DataHoarders months before this big cut-off happened.
Also data deduplication works even for data hoarders if they are hoarding media commonly shared on the internet.
Given the above points, I think there is no basis to call it "abuse".
The effect on me of the temporary unlimited tiers is that I get to know my data usage requirements for a while before I have to choose a tier.
It's really a very welcome intro to cloud storage. I can easily see that even with truly unlimited storage I only used xxGB and therefore can choose the appropriate tier with confidence that my costs won't jump.
One surprise about these unlimited deals is that I'd rather pay Apple for photo storage than use a third-party service that is free (or included in Prime, e.g.). I tried multiple free photo storage services, but the convenience of Apple's offering far outweighs the cost saving.
If you want unlimited cloud storage the G Suite $10 / month plan is still unlimited. (Actually it says 2 PB in Google Photos when backing up original size photos & videos.)
I realize "fairness" is not an excuse for inability to compete with the marketing of other companies. But if a company wants to test customer appetite for a service with pricing that is upfront honest, stable, and bound to only get better over time, there's never enough time to give it a proper shot.
Cheap options are Glacier at $0.004/GB, Backblaze at $0.005/GB, GCS Coldline at $0.007/GB. That's the monthly cost for bare cloud storage with no egress. Anything cheaper than about $50/year for 1TB will fall in one of two categories:
1. Subsidized by the provider, but probably not for long. This has happened so many times I can't even remember them all, Amazon is just the most recent.
2. Strictly DIY, probably with a much higher chance of data loss than you realize.
But for anything above a few TB, running your own hardware will be way cheaper if you take say a 5y horizon. Disks are so large today that you don't need a big config. In fact you might even keep two copies to reduce the risk.
Of course there is the occasional trip to the datacentre. I made that mistake. I pay more in uber than I saved by picking a datacentre far away.
Actually, that reasoning is exactly what I wanted to talk about. When the primary is lost, there is a much higher chance than you'd expect that a secondary contains unrecoverable errors. This is why RAID 5 arrays fail to rebuild after a disk failure so often—they're supposed to be able to tolerate a single disk failing, but they can't tolerate a disk failing and any other IO error at the same time. Part of this is due to how short the timeout is for failed reads in RAID setups, but I've still seen a lot of RAID 5 arrays fail, and I've seen a few RAID 6 arrays fail too.
On top of that, there's the high chance of configuration errors in DIY systems.
Weekly integrity check of all backed up data. E-Mail which informs of result. Web interface which shows overview of results of historical checks. External service which sends E-Mail if integrity check failed to run (e.g. https://deadmanssnitch.com/).
In .net it's only a few lines of codes. Haven't thought of deadmansnitch but it's a good idea. Would just take one more line of code.
I don't believe it has a web interface with historical checks, although I could be wrong. That said, it might be stored in a log file somewhere.
I also don't have an external service that would send me an email if it failed to run. That said, I would get an email if cronjobs had a mysterious error; otherwise, if the server itself was dead, my data would not be accessible on my home network, so I'd notice.
If the home server dies tragically, well, I hope Google Cloud Storage is doing similar integrity checks -- that's where my offsite backups are.
I need to feel safe that I can reasonably undo my changes on the primary storage, even if it takes me years to realise what I did.
This is why I keep two backups. Until now, the secondary offsite copy was on ACD...
On the other hand, supporting your point #1, I used to have several TB on StreamLoad which 10ish years ago used to also offer unlimited... until they suffered a critical hardware failure and lost tons of customer data. They then changed to MediaMax, then suddenly disappeared.
Perhaps you know of others, or this list is incomplete, but Wikipedia has a list of file services, of which there aren't many who offer an unlimited plan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_hosting_ser...
So heavy users are not only capped, they're also subsidized by the light users.
Some users were apparently bragging about having 1PB+ on ACD. That would mean the RAM usage would actually be a useful upper bound, as I doubt many of these guys have 170GB of RAM in their media server PCs.
CrashPlan's upload speed is a joke for people located outside North America. I had an account for ~3 years, but found it difficult to upload more than 6TB. (There are rumours that CrashPlan throttles uploads.)
On the other hand, I've managed to backup most of my ~15TB NAS (and more) on Amazon Cloud Drive.
Sia's decentralization is not unique. Amazon, Google, and Microsoft cloud storage are also decentralized. The idea of reselling unused bytes on disks that you already own is also not unique—again, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft already do this.
This situation with retiring unlimited storage on ACD would not be possible with Sia. Amazon is changing terms and conditions, Sia is a blockchain where no party has the power to do that.
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To address your pricing comment, there are more than 1000 TB for sale on the Sia network. Adding 2.5 TB to the network would not move the price at all, that's really not how pricing works on Sia.
The reason that it's more expensive than it used to be is because prices are set entirely in Siacoin. When the siacoin prices rise, hosts need to manually re-adjust their prices to keep the same USD price. As of writing, there are no tools that will let this happen automatically. The siacoin price has doubled 6 times in 6 months. The result is that a lot of the defaults are now grossly expensive, and hosts need to be very familiar with the pricing mechanisms to respond accordingly. Most have not, though the ones that have are seeing much higher utilization than the ones that haven't.
We will be releasing stuff in the next month to help hosts set prices more intelligently, that should move the prices back to the competitive spot that they historically been at. The high prices right now are merely a result of market confusion among the hosts.
Presumably this represents entirely speculative activity driven by the other fashionable blockchains?
Is there a good place to keep an eye on the roadmap for the technology (with info like what you had in the last paragraph)?
"How I ended up paying $150 for a single 60GB download from Amazon Glacier"
> If you’re retrieving more than 5% of your stuff, expect to pay a fee, “starting at $0.011 per gigabyte”.
Key words here is "starting at". as in, no cap on how much they can and will charge you for your data. Cause you know, 60GB is realllly expensive to transfer :(
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What Glacier seems to be for, is more like compliance paperwork and other "We are required to save this for X years" kind of paperwork. Because most of those types of documents, you don't care about and only legally have to keep available. And if a court case comes along, the Glacier retrieval price can just be added on top of court fees (which in that case, Glacier is probably a pittance even at the $10k level).
> Cause you know, 60GB is realllly expensive to transfer :(
Network and disk IO capacity planning is hard. You can't just buy GBs of egress at $0.01 and then resell them at $0.01, because you're paying for maximum capacity and turning around and selling average usage. Similarly, when you have a bunch of data shoved into unused sections of disk, you can't just read them back out without affecting whatever else is reading from the same disk. If you want to sell something close to cost, you need to reflect the pricing structure of what you're paying to your customers.
So if you upload a bunch of data to a super-cold storage system that's even named after a geological formation that stays frozen for centuries, to remind you how cold it is, and then you make it hot by trying to download it all at once, you'd expect it to be more expensive.
Just do your regular cost-benefit analysis and it should be fine, based on how long you plan on storing the data and how likely or often you think you'll need to restore it.
Pricing means sifting through a legalese dense block of text to try to come up with even a way to estimate the costs. That is a problem. I should be given a rough cost expectation up front. Sure, it's not going to be exact and all, but This article is about a cost factor of *180.. That's the difference between an iPad and a Ferrari.
Other places of varying types of backup systems are a lot more clearer to tell how much I should be expected to pay. Or at least, I get within +/- 10%. Glacier? "Yeah, Don't worry about it till we bill ya!" That's the scam with all these cloud services really. Once we have your nuts in a vice, we can squeeze and extract, cause you don't have any other choice, now do you?
Before Feb 2017, it did work with the peak hourly request fees. Those were well documented. Apparently peak transfer rates were "confusing". I didn't think so, after all, that's similar to how I pay for internet access at home (I pay based on capacity, not based on bytes transferred).
Amazon S3 Infrequent Access has higher retrieval costs, though not as crazy as Glacier, and a delete penalty. Deleting a file after 1 day will cost 30x normal S3 storage fees.
Likewise, Coldline sounds great, but they have higher retrieval fees (not so bad) and a delete penalty. The Coldline delete penalty will cost 90x the regular storage cost if a file is deleted the next day. I don't recommend Coldline unless you know you won't be deleting files before 90 days.
At the same time, I don't get, why would you encrypt your "Linux ISO's"? Let the AWS dedup do its job, don't abuse it, and everyone is happy.
> At the same time, I don't get, why would you encrypt your "Linux ISO's"? Let the AWS dedup do its job, don't abuse it, and everyone is happy.
Because if you are a self-proclaimed data hoarder, do you have the time to sort through and selectively classify your hoard to "encrypt this ISO don't encrypt that tarball" on a file-by-file basis across many terabytes?
How much would be saved by deduping anyway? If they're not deliberately making it easy/redundant, even if you got 300TB down to 100TB or such, a single order-of-magnitude reduction doesn't fundamentally change the economics of "unlimited."
Blame data hoarders, but don't blame encryption.
I only have my pictures and personal data in AWS cloud, encrypted. They way I set it up? Point rclone to relevant directories and skip the rest.
Any recommendations on the "plenty of apps" that sort your data for easy searching?
It seems that as of a few months ago, two popular (unofficial) command line clients for ACD (Amazon Cloud drive) were acd-cli[1] and rclone[2], both of which are open source. Importantly the ACD API is OAuth based, and these two programs took different approaches to managing their OAuth app credentials. acd-cli's author provided an app on GCE that managed the app credentials and performed the auth. rclone on the other hand embedded the credentials into their source, and did the oauth dance through a local server.
On April 15th someone reported an issue on acd-cli titled "Not my file"[3] in a user alleged that they had received someone else's file from using the tool. The author refered them to amazon support. The issue was updated again on May 13th with another user that had the same problem - this time with better documentation. The user reached out to security@amazon.com to report the issue.
Amazon's security team determined that their system was not at fault, but pointed out a race condition in the source for the acd-cli auth server (sharing the auth state in a global variable between requests...) and disabled the acd-cli app access to protect customers.[4]
In response to this banning, one user suggested that a workaround to get acd-cli working again would be to use the developer option for local oauth dance, and use rclone's credentials (from the public rclone source).[5] This got rclone's credentials banned as well,[6] presumably when the amazon team noticed that they were publicly available.
To top this all off, the ACD team also closed down API registration for new apps around this time (which seems to have already been a strenuous process). I suppose the moral of the story is that OAuth is hard.
[1]: https://github.com/yadayada/acd_cli [2]: https://github.com/ncw/rclone [3]: https://github.com/yadayada/acd_cli/issues/549 [4]: https://github.com/yadayada/acd_cli/pull/562#issuecomment-30... [5]: https://github.com/yadayada/acd_cli/pull/562#issuecomment-30... [6]: https://forum.rclone.org/t/rclone-has-been-banned-from-amazo...
The whole point of an unlimited tier is to attract large numbers of outsiders who don't want the cognitive burden of figuring out $/GB/month and estimating how many GB photos they'll need to store.
What we're talking about here is that they got some customers like that, but they also got a small number of customers taking them for a ride, call them 'power users' the kind of customers who (as we see elsewhere in these comments) won't stick around if the price changes.
There's nothing wrong with these power users storing huge amounts of data at subsidised price, just like there's nothing wrong with Amazon changing the pricing. They just decided to stop subsidising that behaviour and probably take a slight hit on a conversion rate somewhere.
As for your question about 'private' storage, it's a grey area. Privacy isn't absolute, especially in cases where a company is by inaction helping you breaking the law (whether you agree with the law or not). Companies work very hard to distance themselves from responsibility for their customers actions and don't want to jeopardise that by letting it get out of hand
How does this work with Google Play Music (you can upload up to 50k songs for free and listen to it "on the cloud")?
I think you are focusing on the wrong thing. Corporations don't care about the law any more than individuals do. Laws and regulations are just guidelines if you are determined enough to get your way. Look at all the Uber stories. Pretty sure people here still like Travis for his tenacity no matter what you say about his morality.
I think we often forget that humans wrote the laws we have today. They didn't come to us in stone tablets down the mountain top. At the end of the day, these laws don't matter. They are not written in stone so as to speak. We should always strive to do better. Intellectual property is a sham. I mean think about it. I think there is legitimate intellectual property, the trademark.
I think it is wrong for me to sell "Microsoft Windows" (even if I wasn't charging any money) if I had modified the software and added malware into it. But me watching a movie or reading a book without paying royalties does not hurt anyone.
Please think about it. Just because something is legal does not make it right and just because something is illegal does not make it wrong. We need to calibrate our laws based on our image and not the other way round. We write the laws. The laws don't write us.
I'm struggling to find a connection between the points that I made in my comment and the points in your reply. Suspect we have some miscommunication here... my own comment wasn't spectacularly well filtered.
I'll bite on these though;
> Laws and regulations are just guidelines if you are determined enough to get your way. Look at all the Uber stories.
Don't conflate civil or criminal law with the work of regulatory bodies, who in my experience with the FCA and OFT are very open and collaborative without any need for "tenacity".
Uber work very hard on marketing and competition, but they are allowed to succeed to regulators who WANT them to succeed despite their amoral hussle, not because of it. Regulators in my experience (the FCA and OFT specifically) are very open and collaborative. They understand that markets move on and regulations sometimes lead and sometimes follow.
> Please think about it. Just because something is legal does not make it right...
So, I'm assuming from this comment that you're quite young. Just for you information; I suspect most folks on HN are already aware of the delta between legality and morality.
I'd also recommend thinking about the subjective nature of morality, and the causes and malleable nature of it.
Customers are customers, not product managers. It is only natural to make use of a service you pay for.
Its understandable from their point of view to offer unlimited and be awesome but not expect this kind of usage that is not sustainable. So they made a mistake and are correcting it.
It's hard to see it as a deliberate strategy to pull in users and then charge them more when they are "locked in"
Do they also refund people for their time wasted assuming this was a sustainable service, or does this "correction" only work in one direction?
My annual cost will jump from $60 to $180. That's too much for simple offline backup , so it's time to start looking for options again :(
Glacier may a more affordable option, but my experience a few years ago has been terrible.
Any suggestions? Google Drive is also pricey ($240); Crashplan is incompatible with NAS, and tarsnap is out of question (>$6,000/year).
1 TB of egress bandwidth is $120.00 a month.
Presumably you'd pay the $120 bandwidth fee seldom or never.
Most of the time, people only need to restore a few files from backup because they were accidentally deleted. The bandwidth costs for a few GB here and there are pretty cheap.
I haven't used them myself so I can't vouch for the UX or quality, but they should be able to offer pretty low prices.
It could be overwritten though. A good backup protects you from more than just destruction at the primary site. There are various relatively efficient ways to arrange snapshots when using rsync as your backup tool.
Also, remember to explicitly test your backups occasionally, preferably with some sort of automation because you will forget to do it manually, so detect unexpected problems (maybe the drive(s)/filesystem in the backup device are slowly going bad but in a way that only affect older data and don;t stop new changes being pushed in).
My "live" machines push data to an intermediate machine, the the backup locations pull data from there. This means that the is no one machine/account that can authenticate against everything. Sending information back for testing purposes (a recursive directory listing normally, a listing with full hashes once a month, which in each case gets compared to the live data and differences flagged for inspection) is the same in reverse.
This way a successful attack on my live machines can't be used to attack the backups and vice-versa. To take everything you need to hack into all three hosts separately.
Of course as with all security systems, safe+reliable+secure+convenient storage of credentials is the next problem...
Initial backup took a long time. There was no easy way to prioritize, for example, my photos over system files. I ended up manually prioritizing by disallowing pretty much my entire filesystem, and gradually allowing folders to sync. First, photos, then documents, then music, etc.
Eventually it all got synced up and it was trouble-free... until I tried to get my data back out.
The short version of the story is that a power surge fried my local system. I bought a new one and had some stress when it appeared the BB client was going to sync my empty filesystem (processing it as a mass delete of my files). I managed to disable the sync in time.
Then I discovered there was no way to set the local BB client to pull my files back down. Instead, I had use their web-based file manager to browse all my folders and mark what I wanted to download. BB would then zip-archive that stuff which would then only be available as an http download. There was no Rsync, no torrent, no recovery if the download failed halfway, and no way to keep track of what I had recently downloaded. Also, iirc, they were limited to a couple of GB in size per file. (which didn't matter because at that time, the download would always fail it the file was larger than __MB (I don't remember the exact number. 100MB? 300? Also hazy on the official zipfile size limit)
So I had to carefully chunk up my filesystem for download because the only other option BB offered was to buy a pre-filled harddrive from them (that they would ship to me).
I felt like Backblaze was going out of their way to make it hard for me in order to sell me that harddrive of my data. I felt angry about that and stubbornly downloaded my data one miserable zipfile at a time until I had everything.
Once I was reasonably sure I had everything I cared about, I closed my account and haven't looked back.
[Edit to add] This was at least 5 years ago. No doubt their service has improved since then.
https://help.backblaze.com/hc/en-us/articles/217665888-How-t...
I switched to Arq with Amazon Drive as the storage backend.
They're dirt cheap to store as of now: median contract price is $12/TB·mo, but network storage utilization is currenly only 2%, so actual deals settle on about $2/TB·mo. Downside is that exchange rate of their coin is highly volatile, at least was during last month.
http://siapulse.com/page/network (Prices tab)
For data storage, you need error encoding. Sia does that, but you pay for it. So for 1TB of data, you upload 2TB to the network (that's how Sia is configured) and at the current $2.02/TB per month, that's $4.04/TB, which is more expensive than Glacier. Glacier charges funny for downloads but Sia charges for downloads too.
I assume that if you wanted to store ~2.5TB like we're talking about, you'd be paying more than $4/TB, because 2.5TB is 10% of the total of all data currently stored in Sia, currently 24.5 TB. (By comparison the major cloud providers are undoubtedly in the exabyte range of actual data stored. Or for another comparison, you could comfortably hold 24.5 TB of storage media in one hand.)
Sia promises to be cheap because you're using unused bytes in hard drives that people already bought, but that's exactly what Amazon, Google, and Microsoft are already doing, except their data centers are built in places where the electricity costs less than what you're paying. Plus they don't charge you extra for data redundancy.
Another cool thing is Sia lets hosters set their storage and bandwidth prices, so specialized hosts will likely pop up. For example one host might use tape drives, set cheap storage cost and expensive bandwidth cost. Clients can prioritize as desired. SSD servers with good peering can do the opposite.
The real interesting part will be when you can create one-time-use URLs to pass out, which connect directly to the network - effectively turning it into a distributed CDN.
The network prices today are less friendly, though that's primarily due to market confusion. The siacoin price has doubled 6 times in 6 months, and there's no mechanic to automatically re-adjust host prices and the coin price moves around. So hosts are all currently advertising storage at these hugely inflated rates, and newcomers to Sia don't realize that these aren't really competitive prices.
Though, I will assert that even at our current prices it's not price that's the primary barrier to adoption. It's some combination of usability, and uncertainty. Sia is pretty hard to set up (it's around 8 steps, with two of those steps taking over an hour to complete), and a lot of people are not certain that Sia is truly stable enough to hold their data.
We're focused on addressing these issues.
1. Performing a restore in a timely fashion on a large dataset seems like a tall order if these networks don't impose any minimums for the upstream bandwidth of the hosts.
2. Files can completely disappear from the network if the machines that are hosting them happen to go dark for whatever reason, which seems to be a much more likely occurrence for some random schnub hosting files for beer money than it would be for traditional storage providers that have SLAs and reputations to uphold.
Maybe these concerns are unfounded, and some or all of these networks already have measures in place to address them? I'd appreciate it if someone more familiar with these networks could enlighten me if that's the case.
Different hosts have different amount of collateral, and it's both an important security measure as well as market mechanism.
Also, Sia is completely decentralized (unlike StorJ for example), so it can't be intervened with by anyone which might result in lost files.
> these networks don't impose any minimums for the upstream bandwidth of the hosts.
Sia today primarily handles that through gross redundancy. If you are using the default installation, you're going to be putting your files on 50 hosts. A typical host selection is going to include at least a few sitting on large pipes. Downloads on Sia today typically run at about 80mbps. (the graph is really spiky though, it'll spike between about 40mbps and 300mbps).
We have updates in the pipeline that will allow you to speedtest hosts before signing up with them, and will allow you to continually monitor their performance over time. If they cease to be fast enough for your specific needs, you'll drop them in favor of a new host. ETA on that is probably ~August.
> Files can completely disappear from the network if the machines that are hosting them happen to go dark for whatever reason
We take host quality very seriously, and it's one of the reasons that our network has 300 hosts while our competitors are reporting something like 20,000 hosts. To be a host on Sia, you have to put up your own money as collateral. You have to go through this long setup process, and there are several features that renters will check for to make sure that you are maintaining your host well and being serious about hosting. Someone who just sets Sia up out of their house and then doesn't maintain it is going to have a very poor score and isn't going to be selected as a host for the most part.
Every time someone puts data on your machine, you have to put up some of your own money as collateral. If you go dark, that money is forfeit. This scares away a lot of hosts, but that's absolutely fine with us. If you aren't that serious about hosting we don't want you on our network.
> but lack of clarity around some important concerns have so far prevented me from taking them seriously
We are in the middle of a re-branding that we hope introduces more clarity around this type of stuff as it relates to our network.
$120/year for 2.5T.
Even for his smaller data size of 3TB it still works out to $180 a year which is the same as what he'd have to pay Amazon.
choose 2
Do you do versioning? As in what happens if your files are silently corrupted e.g. by accident or by malware? Rsync would overwrite your files, and you might even overwrite your off-site backup when you connect it.
My main reason for going beyond such a set-up though is that it takes time, effort and remembering to sync the off-site backup by taking it home, syncing and putting it back. And during that time all your data is in the same place. If something happens to your home during that time (break-in, flooding, fire...) you're out of luck. Unless your rsync'd drives are also encrypted and you just switch one of them with the off-site one for rotation.
The really key stuff is in git repos.
Most of the data (films, mostly) I could stand to lose.
It can be a bit weird to set up initially, and is a lot less magical in the interest of putting you in control for privacy reasons, but the flexibility added is pretty useful. I have a music folder that I sync to my phone without needing to pull the rest of my backups along with it, since they wouldn't fit anyway. Several of my larger folders aren't backed up on every single device for similar reasons, but some of my really important smaller folders (documents, photos, regular backups of my website's database) go on everything just because it can.
Anyway, check it out. Highly recommended all around: https://syncthing.net/
I don't use Syncthing, I use an rsync script I wrote over 10 years ago, using the --link-dest option to keep incremental backups for around 2 years.
This relies on Zsh's fancy globbing, but the gist of it is:
date=$(date +%Y%m%d-%H%M)
[for loop over users]
older=( $backups/$user/*(N/om) )
rsync --archive --recursive \
--fuzzy --partial --partial-dir=$backups/$user/.rsync-partial \
--log-file=$tempfile --link-dest=${^older[1,20]} \
--files-from=$configdir/I-$user \
--exclude-from=$configdir/X-$user \
$user@$from:/ $backups/$user/$date/Don't you have friends or relatives at a reasonable distance who can set up mutual backups on each other's home servers?
If it provides them a benefit like an in-house plex server, even better.
Of course it requires you going to the bank regularly to update the backup.
That's my primary use case for Amazon Drive. I have a robust rsync of the workstations and laptops to a NAS, and then to a second (incremental-only, no delete) NAS. Works great, but if the house burns down, or if someone breaks in and steals the computers, I want to ensure there's a copy somewhere.
Could be a nice hack.
You can run it from your workstation, but if you've got a reasonable amount of data on your NAS then the memory issues will bite you again. Something like Backblaze B2 is more expensive, but I'd rather pay $10/mo to backup the 2TB of data on my NAS (growing every day) and use CrashPlan to backup my computers only.
CrashPlan's client is able to attach to a headless instance [1], but the RAM requirement does mean that it's only really usable on NASes with expandable RAM.
[1] https://support.code42.com/CrashPlan/4/Configuring/Use_Crash...
I used Crashplan for 3 years on a Synology NAS. It's a disaster. Every time there was a Synology upgrade, the CP headless server would stop working, and you'd need to reinstall, re-set the keys, etc.
After 10 ou 15 times doing this, I got rid of Crashplan entirely, migrated my backups to Amazon Drive, and never looked back.
Given the lack of decent options, seems the best choice will really be to pony up the $180 for 3TB that Amazon will start charging next year...
I have the MacOS CrashPlan client configured to back up a variety of NAS shares when the NAS is powered on and the share is mounted. Only about 4 shares, and I made a point to mount them and leave them mounted until the sync completed.
The shares are cold storage, so once synced, they stay virtually unchanged.
You can then mount the drive using DriveFS:
https://blog.google/products/g-suite/introducing-new-enterpr...
It's basically a FUSE filesystem built on top of Google Drive.
Alternatively, you can use the Drive Sync Client, if you want to just sync stuff back and forth (without a virtual FS).
My guess is that Amazon had more datahoarders than average-joe users and so the low-volume users didn't outweigh or pay for the heavy users like they originally estimated when they set the price for the service. It was good while it lasted.
I would further speculate that plex users were the largest single group of offenders. seemed like a cat and mouse game for a while -- amazon started comparing hashes of files to known bootlegs and banning accounts, so everyone started using encfs, and later migrated to the unlimited plan from google apps. I guess google's the only game in town, now.
the issues being described in the link you posted may refer to early-release bugs, users who were getting throttled or nuked due to the anti-piracy efforts I referred to earlier, or any number of things (certain kinds of transcoding, maybe?) -- it's a pretty vague article! but plex and amazon can definitely be integrated.
1. https://amc.ovh/2015/08/13/infinite-media-server.html
2. https://www.reddit.com/r/PleX/comments/58uhmo/guide_to_using...
It doesn't work with plex's cloud feature: https://www.plex.tv/features/cloud/ - they removed it from the list there. This would have gotten a lot more users
regarding fuse:
> you need a computer for it
well, not really, only to the extent that a VPS is a computer.
> I would say that's an outlier solution
an outlier solution for an outlier problem (can we agree to call that people storing 100+ TB of files?). except the problem was seemingly large enough that they had to get rid of it, so maybe it's not fair to call it an outlier. I don't think "first class" is a concern for people with such ridiculous amounts of data. plex cloud just makes things simpler, but running plex on a VPS takes two commands and there are some pretty detailed guides out there for people who don't know what ssh or digitalocean is. it's at a point now where there's even a platform for automating this stuff, complete with fancy dashboard etc.[2] needing to use things like fuse and encfs is hardly a barrier.
people talk about this stuff a lot more publicly than I would have thought, in places like /r/datahoarders, /r/plex, as well as the lowendbox, quickbox, and torrent tracker forums.
1. https://support.plex.tv/hc/en-us/articles/203082447-Supporte...
Thanks for the links, quickbox does look neat. I've been looking to get a media server for my plex stuff and it seems to support a lot.
Interesting. I wonder if this indirectly expedited the price hike? Encryption would make it (practically) impossible for Amazon to deduplicate people's data and store it more cost efficiently.
What they were doing is using a server in the middle for auth. But oh god the server started handing out the wrong keys so you might end up having total control of another acd_cli users account.
And when acd_cli got banned they (not acd_cli themself but users that modified the source) just used rclones app ID and keys to trick Amazon into thinking acd_cli was rclone. Then rclone got banned.
They (amazon) did say the problem with rclone was the keys were public since it is open source.
As long as Amazon's API could allow for accessing the storage space in a drive-like manner, they were open for abuse. For me the writing was on the wall.
This should be illegal, I'm never trusting Amazon with my business again.
8) What happens to my content if I choose not to renew into one of the new storage plans?
When your paid storage subscription expires, your account will be considered in an over-quota status if your content stored is greater than the free storage quota on your account. If your account is in an over-quota status, you will not be able to upload additional files, and can only view, download, and delete content.
Looks like I have 180 days to move before getting deleted, guess I'd better pray they don't decide to cap download speeds...
You have a 180-day grace period
to either delete content to
bring your total content
within the free quota, or to
sign up for a paid storage plan.
After 180 days in an over-quota
status, content will be deleted
(starting with the most recent
uploads first) until your
account is no longer over quota
From amazon's release: "Current customers will keep their existing unlimited storage plan through its expiration date."
Which means they are honoring the deal and not altering it and are abiding by the terms agreed to.
I'm not trying to be an Amazon apologist, just being realistic.
I thought that while random backup company may not understand full implications of offering a free unlimited storage, Amazon is the one that should, and that worst case I'll get my upload throttled.
Well I guess it was a bit too good to be true.
I will say that even at $60/yr for 1TB and unlimited photos, its still a nice deal.
Heh. Anyone tried writing an encoder to make files look like photos, and upload them to any of these "unlimited photo" services. I am sure they are probably watching for it and will close the account.
Then what if it there is a way to gradually mix in data with actual photos, a bit like in steganography. But more aggressive. And create what still looks photos, just like really noisy.
https://digiwonk.gadgethacks.com/how-to/use-your-new-terabyt...
This is very easy to catch, though. Abusing comment fields might be more interesting. Use a small valid image, and insert 4MB of data into a comment field. It would be a fun project to implement this as a FUSE file system. I'm not sure whether any of the popular formats support arbitrary-length comments, and whether or not Amazon strips such data (it's image storage, after all, not file storage).
It's probably inconvenient enough for most data hoarders for Amazon not to care. You can still switch to encoding it in the pixel values in case they do. I'm not familiar enough with PNG to comment on the space-efficiency of that.
http://embeddedsw.net/OpenPuff_Steganography_Home.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StegoShare
I don't think they are watching for it, it is too uncommon and inefficient.
Some other methods are listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography_tools#Carrier_en...
Although it does come with a fair warning that ...
"It's also really slow and liable to explode at any moment, so don't seriously use it."
I find it highly amusing though
Operating a large storage infrastructure is not free of course so it almost cannot be any other way unless everyone decided all at once "hey I'm going to charge what I need to stay in business forever right from the start." Which no one ever does because who signs up for such an expensive cloud storage plan where there are so many cheaper ones to choose from?
I pitched a psuedo peer to peer storage plan to some investors once (feel free to pick up the torch and keep running :-) where the company would 'sell' a NAS box to customers that they put on their network and the Internet. 50% of the available storage would be theirs to use, 50% would be used by people off site. The NAS box would encrypt peer-to-peer erasure coded copies of the local storage. If you're allocation of storage was 10TB you "got" 10TB of which the most up to date copy was on your 'home' NAS but it kept the 'cloud view' consistent within a few seconds if you had a decent network.
There was a variant where you took less than 50% of the storage and the company would sell the extra to people on a subscription basis and offset the cost of the NAS appliance you had in your house/apt whatever. The 'key value' of the company was this virtual datacenter where all of its gear was distributed amongst all of these individual installations. That needed some interesting capabilities like ship on warn replacement drives to owners etc.
As the available bandwidth to individual houses increases it gets to be a better idea.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/6583s2/the_pet...
Check out the first comment
Also very unimpressed that they banned rclone's usage of the ACD API and then flat out refused to re-allow the app if the developer changed to not include the secret key in the source code.
Amazon Cloud Drive's (still-available) Unlimited Photos plan includes RAW files.
Guess I'll be using Backblaze B2 entirely on Linux and macOS now.
So if someone is using eg. 50GB of storage Amazon is going to sign them up for the 1TB/$59.99 tier rather than the 100GB/$11.99 tier? Yes it can be changed, but also inertia affects these things, many people don't check or can't be bothered (same psychology as cashback offers). Judging from the sneaky pushy way they try to get everyone signed up for Prime (the button to not sign up is practically invisible compared to the 'yes' button and I know of several people who signed up unknowingly and got charged) I wouldn't be surprised if they are acting darkly on this.
In all seriousness, this move is another example of why I don't trust cloud storage. I use cloud storage, both GDrive and OneDrive, but never for mission-critical data, and especially never as a complete replacement for a good old JBOD in the basement.
Building Servers doesn't have to be difficult or complex [1].
[0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/6fydbz/looks_l...
[1]: https://blog.codinghorror.com/building-servers-for-fun-and-p...
I find myself fairly sympathetic with companies removing their unlimited policies, when this kind of thing goes on. I doubt that in practice it will effect more than a tiny number of people.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/5s7q04/i_hit_a...
Compare cost, durability, and region support of public cloud object stores, e.g., Amazon S3: http://gaul.org/object-store-comparison/
And source repo: https://github.com/andrewgaul/object-store-comparison
http://swirlingtea.blogspot.in/2017/05/amazon-de-emphasizing...
Wouldn't making the plans in 5-10TB increments have also stopped most of the abuse?
On the plus side (now that they are charging a sustainable amount for it) perhaps they will reopen the developer API and I'll be able to get some new keys for rclone...
The Prime Photos app is slow (even thumbnails load slowly). Videos take time to buffer, even on a 400mbps connection. Navigating the library is difficult. Uploads (photos or not) clearly take much longer than uploading to, say, YouTube. And I've also seen that their iOS app misses uploading some files too, saying "0 items remaining to upload" when clearly many items aren't uploaded yet. Lost some memory-worthy videos that way. Of course, bugs can be found in any product and that's okay. But sometimes you can tell that it's because the product is neglected.
I'm now surveying the alternatives again. Any recommendations?
Edit: Rephrasing "product is neglected"
Instead, I need to find a new offsite backup solution ASAP.
Every single time i have trusted a consumer cloud service I have been burned. Grr
Services like S3, Glacier, and B2 have sensible business models so you can count on them being there tomorrow.
"Unlimited" makes no financial sense because it will be abused, and one by one the unlimited services have ceased to exist. BackBlaze is still unlimited because they are careful to limit the promise to drives powered up and attached to your computer and require you to use their own client.
Funny story; They previously had a clause in the terms about restricting storage space for users with abnormal usage patterns. A friend of mine sent a complaint to the norwegian consumer ombudsman about this based on the fact that if you advertise with unlimited, all users should get unlimited. Half year later they've changed the terms to be less suggestive on possible restrictions (https://blog.jottacloud.com/updated-terms-conditions-63f4ba2...).
Before I had a hard limit to stay under, now I cannot know anymore. This was the reason I stopped using Jottacloud, going all in on ACD..
[0] http://hubic.com [1] https://www.ovh.co.uk/public-cloud/storage/cloud-archive/ [2] http://duplicity.nongnu.org/
Deduplication saves a TREMENDOUS amount of storage. The pirates store all the same stuff; "scene" releases of movies and TV shows and porn ripped from web sites. I would be very surprised if they got less than a 1000:1 duplicate ratio on accounts with over 1TB of unencrypted data.
It's completely viable to offer truly unlimited storage for $60/year as long as pirates don't encrypt. Once they encrypt, that business model collapses.
Until it is. Then we have exactly the same situation.
For my personal use case it isn't a huge deal since I just use it as a back-up for work stuff, music and pictures. It is nice to know that if I am at Taco Bell and my apartment burns down I am not totally screwed.
And even if the limit is enforced I will get my mom and my sister and my sisters kids accounts and call it a Christmas present. They are always running low on storage.
Something about that wording really irks me for some reason.
Do they compress your photos further or save them byte for byte? If not, you can upload arbitrary data in many image formats. Even if they recompress them, you could put a QR code as the image to encode the data. I bet someone is trying this...
-Milton Friedman, New York Times Magazine, September 1970
I was on the unlimited plan with about 150gb and will continue with the $60/yr plan for the foreseeable future.
I assume someone will implement a FUSE package to do just that.
There are no Amazon-provided Linux solutions to connect with their Drive (except uploading through a web browser), and they are actively shutting down third-party solutions:
https://forum.rclone.org/t/my-response-to-amazon-banning-rcl...
https://github.com/yadayada/acd_cli/issues/572
To any Amazon managers reading this: many of the developers who you want using AWS also use Linux on their personal machines.
https://github.com/ncw/rclone/issues/1417
So long. I'll be looking into Google Cloud Platform with a lot more interest. If only they had more zones.
What? How is Amazon less competitive on storage than iCloud when they're one of the biggest scale players in cloud computing? They also don't have to deal with the load of a trillion iPhone photos taken per year.
iCloud gives you 2TB for $9.99 per month. And the ironic thing is that Apple pays to use AWS and Google Cloud.
EDIT: My mistake, the comments below are correct. Amazon's prices are yearly.
> 254 GB Used | Unlimited
Never mind. I've got 'til the end of March to find a 'better' provider, but probably won't bother.