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Comment by gigatexal | Hacker News Reader

Fantastic. Screw Uber for only having the option to always use or never use.

Screw any app that really thinks it needs my precise coordinates in the foreground, let alone the background. Turn-by-turn directions in maps is the only exception I've found in 10 years of iPhone use.

Apple's API don't discriminate with regards to precision. An app that shows nearby stores with a 1km radius precision requires the same level of permissions as an app that's trying to do 1m precision.

Unlike Android which have precise and coarse location. If Google wanted, they could limit precise to GPS and similar apps and force everyone else to use coarse location or geo fencing.

Unfortunately Google doesn't care about your privacy. In fact, it's only a matter of time before they remove coarse locations and/or give every app full access to location data (the same way they did with internet access).

Apple's API allow very fine-grained control of both the accuracy and frequency of location updates, depending on, among other things, running in the foreground/background, the user's location etc.: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Pe...

There's currently no explicit penalty for requesting too much information, but the battery power indication could probably get users to uninstall apps wasting energy, and it can even get you app terminated.

What about the desiredAccuracy property of CLLocationManager [1]?

[1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corelocation/clloc...

There is no specific permission for accuracy, which I think was the point there.

Right. An application can ask for what it wants (low accuracy is much faster and burns less battery since it doesn't start GPS) but there's no way for the user to say that an app can ONLY get low accuracy data.

That's a good point. Maybe app developers should be able to request the level of access they want, like precise location, neighborhood (postal code), city, state or country.

If an app never needs more precise information than the country (say Spotify trying to decide whether they operate in your country), they don't need to request it. That also guards against bugs or security breaches in apps that try to do the right thing.

A bit different from turn-by-turn, I use mine for precise positioning using topo maps out in the Australian bush.

I also very much like being able to use the geolocation in my photos to find ones from an exact location.

I want to be tracked by Google. I went out of my way to turn it on in iPhone. My location is leaked to cell towers and by what wifi network I'm connecting through anyway, and I'd rather be able to figure out which cool restaurant I went to months after my visit to Vilnius is over.

Plus my memory of my personal life is so unreliable, especially if I don't have any context, so if I'm ever in court I'd like to be able to share exactly where I was when I was there.

I've stopped thinking that real privacy is attainable. That being said, I refuse to share it with scummy companies like Uber.

I am not completely sure I understand what you want to accomplish, but I think you might find Moves (https://moves-app.com/) useful.

> That being said, I refuse to share it with scummy companies [...]

Moves is owned by Facebook (one has to decide for themselves about FB's scummyness).

Wow, I did not realize Moves was owned by Facebook. Guess I'll be deleting that app...

Or Life Cycle by Northcube. Kinda amazing.

Seconding Life Cycle. Only stores the collected data on-device.

Thanks: I installed it and will try it out for a bit before deciding if I switch to it or remain on Moves.

you could instead just snap a picture of every location you want to remember, you have the location attached as an EXIF

The things you think you'll want to remember later aren't the same things you find yourself wishing you had recorded when that "later" comes.

Explicitly decided to keep Google Maps' location history activated on my device for precisely the same reasons. I'm yet to use it in court or something like that, but the argument about human memory resonates with me strongly - I've used location history many times to review e.g. on which day I was in some place or other few years ago. (Or once, years ago, to check how exactly did I get home after one party.)

RE people saying "just take a photo and use EXIF", that won't work because I don't know in advance what locations I will be interested in in the future.

Do you mean ex ante? A priori knowledge is that which is independent of experience, as in deduced from pure reason; it doesn't just mean 'in advance'.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Thanks for this correction, I didn't realize "a priori" doesn't mean what I thought it means.

(I edited the comment to use "in advance" instead of "ex ante" though.)

in a more formal or philosophical context you're right, but the more colloquial "in advance" usage is not wrong per se (hehe).

I've been using this for precisely the reasons you mention:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/where-have-i-been/id64155398...

Google's location history is excellent and I'd gladly pay for an equivalent application which I could self-host and set up with the minimum of hassle, but having them do it creeps me out too much. I've not managed to work out how to get OwnTracks to substitute fully for it.

a decentralized version would be cool

Awesome, thanks for the link. I had been using Moves by ProtoGeo https://appsto.re/us/PNDwE.i and it's not very accurate. Still good for going back and remembering that awesome random place you found on vacation after the fact so you can recommend it.

I also wish the NSA had something like a personal data explore, but I know that will never happen.

Unfortunately I've not found WHIB to be enormously accurate either, but it does well enough. The main nuisance is interpreting having paused whilst walking past an establishment has having gone in it. Even Google's version couldn't get this right, at least in my case.

I agree. This link came at the perfect time.

A car dealership who botched a warranty repair on my vehicle is stonewalling me - once they realized the error was likely to cost them $2k - $3k, their service department deleted my file and began claiming no evidence exists that I had ever been to their location. I got the scheduling department to confirm my appointment and just found my location history for that day showing that I was at the dealership right on time during the appointment. Going to send this to the manufacturer's corporate complaints departments. Thanks for the heads up.

Dealerships. And people wonder why dealership groups are lobbying like crazy to keep Tesla out of their state.

Off the top of my head, any app involving directions – public transport, say – can reasonably use precise coordinates. Uber is also a reasonable use-case (when you want it to use that data) given the density of some city streets. Then there are location-sharing apps generally, or apps where you want to check in to locations (maybe a bit fuzzier, but there could be a lot of taggable locations within say 500m), or camera applications, or geocaching, or…

It's great to have control, and it would be even better if we were able to specify the accuracy an app is able to achieve. But there are obviously some reasonable use-cases for both foreground and background tracking.

For an app like that, I'd like to see a "approve every request" option. I don't always need my transit app requesting my position (even if only when in the foreground) when I really only need to look up the nearest stop occasionally.

That's your personal choice and desired level of privacy. I like that my Lyft app knows where to set pick up and that my transit app knows the nearest street car location.

Agree with the OP that Uber can burn in hell for "always on"; I guess just in case I need an emergency Uber ride :-/

But feel free to just uninstall all those other apps that I love using.

One slightly frustrating thing is apple hides several key functionalities behind the always permission level.

For example, if I need my app to be woken up remotely by a Bluetooth peripheral that requires the "always" location permission to function.

Geotagging in photos it pretty useful. And find my iPhone. Then there's Pokemon Go - maybe not your cup of tea, but a lot of people love it. It's pretty useful to be able to share your location with someone in iMessage, I've done that a few times. Your mileage may vary.

Wait, can Uber see my name and where I am all the time? Can any app do this?

Your account is linked to a credit card and name. So yes uber knows who you are

More evidence of Uber's future pivot to rating humans (a la black mirror).

Uber doesn't get screwed by not being given geographic information when the phone's owner doesn't want to provide it.

I'm as willing as the next guy to dump on Uber, but in this case Apple didn't leave them many options.

If they chose "while in use" then a ton of functionality would never be possible for any user whatsoever... because the only options they had were, to coin some temporary terms:

Option A: "All or nothing with behavior 1 (while app is in use only)"

Option B: "All or nothing with behavior 2 (always use location whether app is in use or not)"

If they chose option A, their app would be a lot less useful.

If they chose option B, they piss off some people who think they should have offered option A. But Apple would not allow them to offer both option A and option B.

Now, with this upcoming change in iOS 11, Apple will allow them to offer both options, if they choose to.

Sorry, what functionality do I need from a ride sharing app while I'm not using it to hail a ride, wait for a ride, or while on a ride? Given Uber's infamous "hustle" and some of their other software hijinks, I very much doubt that their intentions in this decision were for the benefit of their users. I'd further wager that they use this info to e.g. Track when an Uber user takes a Lyft or competing ride service ride. I don't personally have evidence of this occurring, but given e.g. https://m.slashdot.org/story/324911 and that it's technically possible, I would assume that they're doing it.

While you're walking to where your ride will pick you up you can be, for example, checking your email, and your location will update as you move. Of course you could stand in a fixed position and keep perfect discipline about staying in the Uber app instead, but that's a very inflexible user experience.

This is not true. Apple has had the "only while using" option available to developers for some time. Now Apple is just allowing the user to have that option even when developers didn't explicitly enable it.

Turned location off for Uber for this reason. Makes the app less useable - but still worth it. Without that feature, I'd rather just wave a taxi in (depending on city). Makes me feel like Uber is hostile towards users instead of servicing them.

Waze too, I noticed today actually.

Waze uses that info to let you know when you have to leave for your appointment, including regular appointments you have but did not tell it about (if you drive to "5 Mcdonald Road" every day, around 4pm, then after a while, it will start suggesting it).

I dislike this feature intensely, so I actually have my location services turned off, and I only turn it on before using Waze or Maps.

(Oh, and it seems that the Apple "Use location to set timezone and GPS to set time" will use the GPS even if you turned that specific feature off - unless all location servies have been turned off. Or at least, that's my experience, but it might just mean my phone is bugged).

> Oh, and it seems that the Apple "Use location to set timezone and GPS to set time" will use the GPS even if you turned that specific feature off - unless all location servies have been turned off. Or at least, that's my experience, but it might just mean my phone is bugged

You sure it isn't just getting that info from the cell towers?

I am sure that the small triangle indicator comes up for a few seconds occasionally (I notice once in a couple of days) despite every single system service and app location permission being "off", and that the "time setting" is listed as "having used location services in the last 24 hours" (the indicator is never there long enough for me to get a "using it now" reading).

When the entire "location service" is off, it does not happen (it might use the services for all I know, but the indicator doesn't light up)

How can Uber do this when the OS doesn't have permission at this granularity?

iOS currently has both "Aways" and "Only While Using" options, but the developer specifies which are available to the user. iOS 11 now forces the "Only While Using" option to be available for all location using apps.

iOS has had the permission at that granularity since iOS 8.

https://www.imore.com/how-only-allow-apps-see-your-location-...

> Keep in mind that some apps may not show all three options. This is most likely because the developer has not yet implemented the while using this app option.

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