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Comment by stupidcar | Hacker News Reader

This advice appears to boil down to "spend more time recollecting positive things and happy memories".

OK, but what if you don't have anything positive going on in your life right now? What if you don't have close friends, a romantic partner, a good job, or a secure home? What if you don't have a happy memories? Perhaps you had abusive parents, or you were bullied, or you suffered a debilitating illness?

Convincing middle-class college students to be a bit more cheerful by focussing on the myriad things they have to be grateful for isn't the challenge. It's helping people who have had the worst misfortune find some kind of peace.

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Happiness is a mindset, it's not about just external factors. I've met people in 3rd world countries that are almost starving, live under a dictatorship, and are very ill with no chance to see a doctor and they manage to be grateful for the few things that they do have. They are grateful to have a dog, or to see the sunrise, or have a close community even if everyone's not very well off.

You can't always control the world around you, but you can control how you choose to react to it. Tony Robbins is one of my favorite motivational speakers, and he was abused by his mother as a child. It was really bad. It astounds me to hear him talk about it though, he sees the silver lining of it and says, "It sucked. It did. But it taught me to be resourceful. And that's now one of my greatest strengths." (paraphrasing a bit)

That's not to say you'll be grinning like a shark every moment of every day. People have bad days and mixed emotions. But overall you can make your general happiness much higher by choice.

>I've met people in 3rd world countries that are almost starving, live under a dictatorship, and are very ill with no chance to see a doctor and they manage to be grateful for the few things that they do have.

I grew up in 3rd world poverty. Sorry but this gross misrepresentation of how things are. Life is unbearable suffering, I won't go into the details here. I think this it is some sort of western fantasy that people with less are somehow more noble, happier, altruistic ect.

The human mind is the same everywhere from the poor uneducated in an Indian slum to a billionaire in Hollywood. Our basic nature is shared among all of the humanity.

I do understand where you're coming from, but I lived in it for part of my childhood too. It was truly awful in many ways and full of suffering. But my point is that I knew those people directly. I remember the lady who made the effort to walk to the beach and watch the sunrise before she worked on the farm(not far but still). I remember my grandma who despite being rather bitter in many ways, loved her dogs dearly. I remember eating the same fish and rice for days on end with people who still managed to laugh and joke. Life was awful in many ways, but they could still find things to be grateful and happy for. My point is that they could still manage the feeling of gratitude and joy, not that life was peachy. There's people that act like you can never ever be happy if any one bad thing ever happens to you.

Don't get me wrong, there were people who were just sad all the time too, and understandably so. But life there was crappy and yet there were still people trying to make the best of the cards that were dealt to them. Like you said peoples minds are similar everywhere, the ability to find happiness in small things can be found everywhere too.

>There's people here in the US that act like you can never ever be happy if any one bad thing ever happens to you.

It's not direct but this line of reasoning is getting pretty close to relative privation. Peoples' suffering in the US isn't necessarily less valid because they generally have the basics covered (though not universally), and it sounds a little bit like invalidating their pain to say that you're not allowed to be unhappy if "one bad thing happens to you."

Additionally the original post is wrong about money, it does tend to make people happier up until $100k, where it starts plateauing.

I say US simply because that is where I live and what I see daily, I'm sure the idea of "can never be happy after one thing" can happen anywhere and to anyone. I worded that poorly, sorry. I took that out of my post.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's pain. I'm saying it's a mindset thing to think you can never ever be happy or be grateful because bad things have happened/are happening. I can be grateful for something while simultaneously experiencing pain. I'm grateful for the good meal I had for lunch, but I also sprained my ankle on the way back. One thing does not invalidate the other.

Agree with you about the money thing, I've seen a few studies saying that very thing.

Yeah I think that's accurate. Pretty close to Stoicism, you know.

>I think this it is some sort of western fantasy that people with less are somehow more noble, happier, altruistic ect.

"Noble savage" much?

You might want to look at "trees of hope". These are large murals in in-patient mental health settings. Previous patients write positive things for the current patients.

These are more formally known as "discharge messages", which is part of "safe wards".

Here's one version, but there are very many: http://www.dorsethealthcare.nhs.uk/WS-Dorset-HealthCare/Down...

http://www.safewards.net/interventions/discharge-message

Currently in England you have to be very severely ill to get admitted to a ward.

Gratefulness could be as simple as "I woke up this morning", and thats something to be thankful for, because someone else, somewhere didn't. Everyone has SOMETHING positive to be grateful for, and it's certainly possible to find that thing every day.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, trying to always find something to be grateful for can sometimes make things worse. What if I know that I should be grateful for everything I have and have been gifted in this life, but still feel terrible? It can make it harder to reconcile with negative emotions.

"Why do I still feel this way even though I have things to be grateful for!"

I think reminding yourself to be grateful for things is important, but should be separated from trying to find happiness.

The key is to be grateful of the good things, but still accept the bad things. I think taking the time to be mindful and appreciative of what's good in life is a great way to increase happiness overall.

Example: I am grateful to have a job, food on my table and a house. That doesn't invalidate my feelings of annoyance with my friend who I had a fight with this morning though.

> I think reminding yourself to be grateful for things is important, but should be separated from trying to find happiness.

Hmm... I think if you are finding things to be grateful for, you really are on your way to happiness. Maybe really, the search for happiness is actually the problem. I don't know what your search for happiness looks like, I know what mine looks like. I imagine that i will be happy when X happens, or when life event Y or Z happens. Of course, it may be that none of X, Y, or Z happens, ever. Does that mean I can't be happy in my current or future circumstances? Nope.

I will also put it out there and say that comparing our lives to others on facebook or instagram, etc. is a recipe for disaster. Maybe their lives really are better than ours, maybe they are not. What we see there is a "photoshopped" version of their life, and that creates dissatisfaction with our own lives.

Put simply, I'm trying to both "have goals for the future, but be satisfied in today".

I think chasing happiness will always leave you disappointed. I mean, eventually you die, right? Then what was it all for, if you spent time trying to be happy?

I have to approach this from the perspective of a Christian, because I am one.

Everyone is going to have tips and tricks that they use for improving their mental state. It could be as simple as "think positive" or it could be drugs or therapy. These all work, to an extent. But there's really only one way to deal with the problem once and for all and that's what Jesus did 2000 years ago.

I'll be clear, trying to have faith and trying to turn away from sin is not guaranteed to make you happy. But, as I said up top, that's not the goal. What God offers is peace, which is what I know a lot of people are looking for. An assurance that there's some larger meaning to the world we live in.

> I think chasing happiness will always leave you disappointed. I mean, eventually you die, right?

> What God offers is peace, which is what I know a lot of people are looking for

Not only do I think you are wrong on the former count, I don't think this is the appropriate forum for the latter - but I'll let the mods decide about that.

On the former, there's nothing to say but "you're wrong". Sure we die, but then we don't care. Happiness is it's own reward. Existing, living, breathing, loving, creating, thinking - these all cohabitate uniquely in humans. To say other things don't matter is to say life itself isn't worth living. If the peace only comes in death, then why not end it now?

> Then what was it all for, if you spent time trying to be happy?

"What was it all for, if you spent all that time waiting for peace in the afterlife?"

> I don't think this is the appropriate forum for the latter - but I'll let the mods decide about that.

I would hope they decide in my favor since there seem to be other people offering their own brand of semi-spiritual advice.

> Happiness is it's own reward.

I don't deny that at all! I love happiness. I try to do things that make me happy every day. What I said is that simply searching for happiness will always leave you disappointed.

> "What was it all for, if you spent all that time waiting for peace in the afterlife?"

As I said before, that wasn't my point. So many people have terrible things in their lives, as the OP said. It's nearly impossible for some people to find happiness, and if they do, it'll end someday, when they die or when they hit hard times again.

I would suspect that most people, if they've thought about it long enough, have realized that true lasting peace, if it exists, must exist outside of this life. I'm just trying to point out that that's true.

> These all work, to an extent. But there's really only one way to deal with the problem once and for all and that's what Jesus did 2000 years ago.

I respect that you've stated this is your perspective as a Christian. However, I think most people on this community are coming from a perspective of empiricism. I'm not a die-hard empiricist in general, but when I'm posting on Hacker News, i try my very best to stay within the lines of that tradition.

Within that scope, would you find value in being able to cite empirical research supporting your assertion that religious faith is the "only" valid method of being happy? Not to mention, exactly one religion? Does your religious belief grant you more happiness than a devout Hindu or Muslim? How do you measure it? Also, considering "unhappiness" to be a "problem" which you've "solved", does that mean you are never unhappy?

I don't mean these questions to be demeaning. I have actually been in very deep depressive episodes where at some points, I decided that I would have loved to get deep into some religion and just turned on whatever solace those folks seem to get. But it was impossible - the contradictions are so glaring that I continue to not really understand how people who otherwise have very good problem solving and logic skills can be absorbed into such religions. This is all given that I also had experience with the so-called "mind control cult" phenomenon, that you'd see in a group like Scientology or the Moonies - in those scenarios, you develop an emotional block that prevents you from applying any critical thinking to the religious doctrine in question. Everyone is supposedly susceptible to some form of mind-control-based disabling of critical thinking. I can only assume that we all are regularly slipping into small forms of whatever critical-thinking pits we are susceptible towards - even super rationalists...but I lack the intellect to prove it :) (perhaps this is my personal critical thinking pit).

I'm curious, in your periods of interest in religion, did you ever come across systematic theology?

Systematic theology applies critical thought, and yes, even empiricism to the study of scripture. I would recommend R.C Sproul's "Foundations" lecture series to anyone who is interested in the subject.

No, I don't consider unhappiness to be a problem to be solved, or that anyone can solve such a problem. That's the opposite of what I said actually.

You can still be grateful for what you have. A choice quote:

"But what about those individuals who clearly aren't living the dream? What about a homeless person, for example? The important thing to realize is that Stoicism is by no means a rich person's philosophy. Those who enjoy a comfortable and affluent life can benefit from the practice of Stoicism, but so can those who are impoverished. In particular, although their poverty will prevent them from doing many things, it will not preclude them from practicing negative visualization.

Consider the person who has been reduced to possession of only a loincloth. His circumstances could be worse: He could lose the loincloth. He would do well, say the Stoics, to reflect on this possibility. Suppose, then, that he loses his loincloth. As long as he retains his health, his circumstances could again be worse--a point worth considering. And if his health deteriorates? He can be thankful that he is still alive."

The quote is from "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy" a great book: https://books.google.com/books?id=T9rQCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA72&lpg=P...

Or simply spend more time doing things you like that make you happy. I follow this principle and I am very happy. If I do things that don't make me happy, I know why I am not happy.

let's assume you are ambulatory and not confined to a wheelchair. Go outside to the park on a nice day, do some breathing, take in sounds of the birds, trees, wind.

Then remember that lots of people can't walk, lots of people have major issues breathing, lots of people can't see and/or hear, lots of people live in a bombed out warzone w/ no such bucolic parks to walk in. A lot of people are suffering in ways that you are not. When you don't have a job or a girlfriend or friends (certainly a place I've clocked many many years within), this is what "worked" for me. It of course didn't work amazingly but was better than not doing it. The theory is there's always something you can do/experience that you can try to feel good about. People in severe health / war /etc situations will have much more difficulty being happy. But no job/friends/partner, it can be a lot worse. Plus, exercise. I got tons more exercise when i was unemployed and single. nothing but time. I actually cant get good tracts of time to exercise now. grass is always greener etc.

When I was in high school, one of our teachers gave us an exercise while she was going to be away for a week: everyday, write a paragraph on how you helped someone in need that day. It didn't have to be real. Just make it up. Not sure if it would actually help, but who knows?

There's always an opportunity to do something for someone else, and to reflect on your skillfulness and goodness. The Buddhist term for "positive things and happy memories" is merit[0]. The story of Angulimala is a good example[1]. He had killed around a hundred people, and the world was out looking for vengeance on him. Having repudiated violence and ordained as a Buddhist monk, he gave comfort to a pregnant woman:

    "Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally
    killing a living being. Through this may there be wellbeing for you,
    wellbeing for your fetus." And there was wellbeing for the woman, wellbeing
    for her fetus.

It is not a coincidence that immediately after this the sutta recounts his enlightenment. That was all the merit he needed:

    Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute,
    in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for
    which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing &
    realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the
    holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of
    this world." And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.

Shortly after that, his past caught up with him and he was stoned, but his training kicked in:

    Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl
    broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The
    Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear
    with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have
    burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of
    years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

    Then Ven. Angulimala, having gone alone into seclusion, experienced the
    bliss of release.

As the footnote to this says, this is an example of having made so much merit that it swamps any suffering which might arise[2].

[0] http://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#Merit

[1] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.086.than.html

[2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.099.tha...

right but the person who is "suffering" is missing the point. we are all suffering. When Jesus asked do you want to be saved it was a yes/no question. All these lists of reasons you can't be saved are not an answer to the yes/no question. Do you want to be happy?

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