Barcelona cracks down on Airbnb rentals with illegal apartment squads | Hacker News Reader

Barcelona cracks down on Airbnb rentals with illegal apartment squads

theguardian.com

79 pointskawera74 comments

> Anti-tourist graffiti has begun to appear, with “No tourists past this point” painted on a street in the old city and “Why call it tourist season if we can’t shoot them?” near the popular Park Güell. In recent weeks, several hotels have also been attacked with stones and paint bombs.

Wow. This is shocking when Barcelona is a city that earns a sizable chunk of revenue from tourism. The annual report published by the Barcelona Tourism agency shows significant growth in tourism since 2000. With this in mind, AirBnB appears to be used as a scapegoat here.

http://professional.barcelonaturisme.com/imgfiles/estad/OTBC...

> This is shocking when Barcelona is a city that earns a sizable chunk of revenue from tourism.

Yes, some people earn a sizable chunk, but I highly doubt that common people benefits from it.

not sure why this is downvoted when it's perfectly reasonable

That sign has been there for at least a decade.

Cap pis turistic.

Anti-tourist movement in Barcelona is a minority, mainly from extreme-left parties and activists from Catalan nationalist parties. I live in Barcelona, and I'm ashamed of those xenophobic acts. My guess is that over 90% of Barcelona population don't endorse such xenophobic attitude.

Despite being affected personally, e.g. because of tourism flat rental makes generic rental to have huge price increases (15% year to year increase (!)), I'm not against tourism, because tourism also means less unemployment, and most people having a better situation. Also, having people from around the world willing to visit the city where I live is amazing, and I'm very proud of it. Being Spain still recovering from the long, huge, and terrible financial and housing bubble crisis since 2007, I'm terrified with those radicals blaming the tourists for a problem that should be fixed by local rulers.

In my opinion, the major of Barcelona city (not the province), Mrs Ada Colau (former radical-left activist) should put her efforts into increasing housing offer, so the demand-offer reaches a reasonable equilibrium (e.g. fiscal discounts for empty flats put in the rental market, fiscal discounts for building flats in former industrial places that are like ghost neighborhoods, etc.).

From my side, you're very welcome to visit Barcelona as tourist, as worker, or as whatever you want while you do more good than harm :-)

Thank you for sharing this perspective. It's easy to assume the extreme but vocal views of a small minority represent the views of the population at large.

Yes, that was my concern: a small but radical movement willing to steal the voice of the majority. You're welcome :-)

Is it "extreme left", "xenophobic" or even "anti-tourist" to actually enforce pre-existing requiring that flats be properly licensed in order to serve as short-term rentals?

If 90% of the population is, in fact, against such legislation, then it should be pretty easy to get it overturned.

It's kind of crazy because I suspect a large portion of the tourist crowd (especially those from the us) would probably sympathize with Catalan separatism.

I hope not. In my opinion, the Catalan separatist movement is clearly not democratic (despite using agitprop equaling self-determination to democracy, which is a fallacy), and often, xenophobic ("Spain robs us"). I hope that once the economy gets fully recovered, nationalist people will go back to a more rational position.

How is "Spain robs us" xenophobic? I don't think when americans, for example say, "washington robs us" that's xenophobic at all. It does xenophobic when it's coupled to antitourist sentiment or excluding people from moving to Catalonia (which I don't doubt it is, at the level of the political party)

> once the economy gets fully recovered.

I guess part of my point is that spain's economy won't recover so long as the entrenched political class that feels like it's entitled to the gains catalonia's relatively performant economy.

The same pattern holds true with the EU writ large. For example the entirely disingenous anti-austerity rhetoric in greece vs. germany: news flash, austerity only hurts the poor when you direct the pain of deficit reduction against the poorest and refuse to give up the sweet deals that fill the pockets of rich politically connected interests.

What is really claimed by the Catalan's government is the right of self-determination, that is the right for people living in Catalonia to decide their future. Spain's government oppose to that right, hence the conflict.

To put in perspective, there have been other situations in the history of humanity where various stakeholders did not agree on rights being granted, sometimes even involving violence or even war. Examples are the right of women to vote or the abolition of slavery.

I'm unfamiliar with the situation if not for a couple news stories, but tourists can be overwhelming. As a stambouliote, I can say that it's only in the last couple of years I can go to places like Eminonu and Taksim to get things done. I recall Eminonu from 4-5 years ago, man, it was impossible to walk, an underpass mere 15 metres long took a quarter of an hour to pass, and when I had to go to Tahtakale to buy some stuff for cheap, I better waited winter... All the madness with politics and terrorism aside, I'm kind-a pleased that so less people are coming, for the mere fact that the city is "usable" now. It's completely possible that your fellow citizens be overwhelmed by it, and AFAIK Barcelona gets more tourists than when Istanbul was not hit by terror.

Sure, sometimes it is not easy, e.g. using the metro ("underground") in Saturdays or Sundays is quite uncomfortable. However, that allows to avoid increasing ticket prices, because of optimal utilization. So in the end, a bit of discomfort during 3 months for getting very cheap public transport during the whole year is a good deal, in my opinion, as there is no such thing as a free lunch [1] :-)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as...

> Anti-tourist movement in Barcelona is a minority, mainly from extreme-left parties and activists from Catalan nationalist parties.

This is not true. And you can look at the report through page 155 and you will see who and why is in discomfort with such amount of tourism in their neighbourhoods.

I'm pretty sure "eye of the storm" refers to the calm in the center of a hurricane. This writer seems to use it to mean that AirBNB is suffering the worst damage.

"Amid growing evidence that the massive upsurge in tourist apartments is driving rents up and residents out, the city has launched a crackdown on illegal, unlicensed apartments, and Airbnb, the dominant platform, is in the eye of the storm, although not the only offender."

Sure looks to me like the author is suggesting that Airbnb is is in the center of a storm causing damage to the city of Barcelona.

Which I agree with. Airbnb is great when it's not run for profit. People purchasing second homes to rent out are ruining nice places.

Out the of the five I stayed in the past four years, they've all been second homes rented out with the exception of one in Portland, Maine.

Ive stayed in what could only be called illegal hotels in NYC. In one case I was furnished with keys in a real estate/property mgmt office. Probably depends a lot on your price point tbh.

things are probably pretty calm at airbnb headquarters.

If you are in the eye, then you've had the strongest winds already hit you and they will hit you again as the eye passes by, not that this defends the metaphor.

"Eye of the storm" refers to the center of a hurricane, which, yes, I'd relatively calm. As a metaphor it is often used to evoke the calm surrounded by chaos aspect, but sometimes (though less frequently) used to evoke the center of the chaos without particularly evolving the calm ("ground zero" is an alternative metaphor for the latter use which lacks ambiguity, but seems to be less used, IME, since 9/11.)

Barcelona has had a huge market for apartment sharing since long before Airbnb. I travelled there in 2000 and remember stepping off the train into the train station and being bombarded with people offering a room to stay in their place for a reasonable fee. As I knew from research this was going to happen that's exactly what I planned on doing. I picked the most trustworthy-seeming person I could find and stayed in their place for a week. Had an amazing time.

Full credit to Airbnb for bringing this process into the digital/smartphone age, but the roots for this in some cities, like Barcelona, was always there.

Good. Hotels and hostels are for tourists, apartments should be for residents.

Agree. If Abnb wants to disrupt the hotel market, build cheap and good quality hotels.

The concept of "student hotels", which is a step above most hostels, is quite well-known in Barcelona, e.g. http://www.melondistrict.com/en/barcelona/

Let the market decide. I am a resident, and I rent an apartment, but I have no objection over AirBnB. Tourists are good. Spain's economy is struggling. Renting an apartment to tourists via AirBnb is a lifesaver for some of my friends in Barcelona, who lived for some time without the ability to find any job (unemployment rates in Spain are ridiculous).

That does kind of miss the whole point of the article. If you are a resident, you rent an apartment, and pay an extra 23% that in part is due to the ease at which firms like AirBnB let speculators buy up apartments and rent them out to tourists for a profit.

Tourism is good for Spain, that's not lost on anyone. But the profits are not evenly distributed. Not all social problems can be solved by the market.

Why the profits should be "evenly" distributed? Even distribution is unfair. Fairness is way more important than equality (in fact, "equality", if unfair, is definitely something you wouldn't want to create).

If my friend can rent her apartment for some amount of money and it helps her to survive jobless periods, why she (or I) should bother that somebody is doing it on the larger scale for larger profits? Good for them. And preventing these profits by prohibiting AirBnb will also kill her small income stream, which is way more important to her than it is for the rich guys (who will just invest freed money to something else).

If it's somebody renting their flat or extra rooms then it's not a problem. I'm in a lovely Airbnb right now sitting in the beautiful back yard. The problem is when people have 10 apartments or whole houses cut up into rooms. This happens in Berlin. That is a professional operation avoiding professional costs. That isn't the market deciding, it's unfair competition by evading tax and insurance that a hotel must pay for. And it really is hurting locals in places like Berlin that have a severe shortage.

Why do you consider a hotel tax to be a priori fair?

I'm planning to visit Barcelona. Seeing all those anti-tourist signs makes me wonder if I'll be welcome there.

It's funny how people of a city who earn lots of money from tourists hate the tourists this much!

Yes, just imagine that a city tries to deal with being overrun. They don't hate the tourists, they try to stay as organized as they can.

There is such a thing as being too popular and the tourists converging on Barcelona are starting to make life for the people that live there harder and harder (rising rents, for once thing).

You'll be more than welcome in Barcelona, it's a fantastic place to visit though you'll have to count with insane waiting times at the various 'sights' that are on every tourists 'must see' list.

But try to play by the rules if you can.

I'm sure you are welcoming, but when the streets are painted with anti tourist messaging, then "you'll be more than welcome" sounds a bit hollow.

I've been in Barcelona multiple times over the last few years and it's one of my favorite cities. There are few places where the locals are as accommodating towards tourists but there are limits to how big a proportion of tourists : citizens you can have before there have to be some rules.

The fact that rent prices have jumped up tremendously to the point where locals are pushed out of Barcelona to make way for yet more professionally run AirBnB hotels (which are open 24x7 and all year round) does not help either.

If you see this as 'anti-tourist' imagine that the town or city where you currently live becomes the next hot thing in tourism and you'll be forced to go live somewhere else, or it will be impossible for you to get a spot on the beach in your city and so on. Sooner or later you too would be a big proponent of some reasonable restrictions.

I've seen some incredibly rude and downright criminal things in and near Barcelona on account of people who were just there for a few days, if anything the population is very restrained in how they are dealing with this, especially because it is for a large fraction of them their daily bread and butter.

But I'm really not surprised by what is happening there, the same is happening in many other tourist spots the world over (Amsterdam being another one, for instance).

I've lived in a handful of "next hot thing" towns. In the United States and Canada and have yet to see anti-tourist stories that seem to originate out of parts of Europe.

Which "next hot thing" touristic towns are there in USA and Canada?

Paris, Texas!

The streets aren't painted with tourist messaging. Some streets have some anti-tourist graffiti. Teenage edge-lord shitheads are a world-wide phenomenon. If you don't want to visit Barcelona because of some graffiti, you'd better stay inside your house 24/7 in Chicago for fear of being shot.

You won't find anti-tourist graffiti in Chicago, New York, LA, San Francisco, or Las Vegas.

Sorry, but Chicago and LA aren't of the same "caliber" as Barcelona is, when it comes to "tourist city". Unless you've been to Paris in August or Barcelona...any time of year....you don't know what I mean.

Of course it's not weird to see tourists in NYC or San Fran but tourists are literally everywhere in popular European cities. In Paris, in the summer, it feels like most of Japan and China decided to move there.

I've been in brew pubs in Barcelona where American English is coming out of 50% of the patrons.

So, no, it just doesn't compare.

Don't worry. You'll be welcome. There are tons of tourists in the beach areas and these areas are slowly eating into the surrounding. That's where the tension comes because prices shoot up and regular people are squeezed out.

Source: I live there.

Honestly though, Barcelonetans get huffy if they see anyone from a different barrio.

Worry more about pickpockets :) Barcelona was pretty friendly when I was there.

Heh heh, true! Just returned from my month-long vacation in Portugal and Spain, and Barcelona was the only place where pickpockets tried to steal my cellphone (it was in the metro, I noticed it and moved away from the pickpocket, who promptly left the train). Not particularly noteworthy to me: pickpockets are very common where I live as well.

It's not anti-tourism, and your snide attitude does not serve you well. Barcelona is certainly the single nicest city I have ever visited or worked in. I fully support the residents defending themselves against parasitical freeloaders, as opposed to the fair players who are genuinely renting out space in their own homes on an occasional basis.

You will be welcomed in the city. I'm an expat living in Barelona for the last 7 years and in my experience tourists have always been welcomed. The local exasperation is against rising rent prices, which can be linked to the high increment of unlicensed apartments being rented out for tourism... personally I've got nothing about the sharing economy, but in my experience most of the flats I've seen are being rented out "professionally" meaning they are not being shared. I understand this is a limited sample, but if it is representative of the larger set then the story that AirBnb is helping Barcelona households make an extra income would not stand, and it would rather be a small number of people making a killing out of unlicensed apartment renting. The easiest solution would be for AirBnB to release audited data and prove that it is in fact helping small households the most and not a small number of people. (Keep in mind that hotel capacity is still able to cope with current levels of tourism, except during the Mobile World Congress)

And I'm considering moving to Barcelona and I'm happy they aren't letting all the vacancies in the good parts be snapped up by full time AirBnB renters.

This is a common sentiment, but it's misplaced. Cities don't speak with a single voice; it only takes one or two malcontents to make a statement that hits the news. They don't speak for everyone, or a majority, or even necessarily a significant minority.

I've traveled pretty widely and experienced a small amount of mistreatment. In Oaxaca, some faceless person threw a rock at me from a building across the street (missed, fortunately). That doesn't change the fact that almost everyone I met in Oaxaca was wonderful and I look forward to going back.

I've been to Barcelona recently. I have friends who live there. It's a pretty great place to be a tourist! Although personally, I'd recommend the north (especially Pamplona & Logroño) because the wine is better and cheaper :-)

> it only takes one or two malcontents

You are going to enjoy this link from Nicholas Taleb. I also recommend his books!

Which link? The "halal lemonade" one? I'll save you the experience of reading Taleb's smug, overwrought writing, stickfigure.

The article's point is that in matters of low importance, an intolerant minority can force the majority to adopt their viewpoint. The example is that since certifying lemonade as Halal is inexpensive, an intolerant minority that insist on it can cause all lemonade vendors in the UK to only sell Halal lemonade. As usual, there is no model provided and it's told in a "just-so story" format, with some gratuitous mockery of academics, notwithstanding the fact he's an academic.

I don't live in Barcelona, but the well-being of a city residents is more important then the well-being of its visitors.

They are the ones that have to live with the consequences.

I live in the touristic center of Barcelona (since one year), because of my job.

Income from tourists is not linear result of tourists number. The number of hotels, size of beaches and amount of places to do things is limited. The widths of streets is very limited, especially near Las Ramblas and Barri Gothic. I love this city and want people enjoy it, as much as I do. But if we overcrowd it, nobody will.

> It's funny how people of a city who earn lots of money from tourists hate the tourists this much!

It is not hate and the ones earning the tourism money are not the majority of people living and working in the city

I've just been there. You'll feel welcome. Of all the cities I visited in Spain, Barcelona was definitely the most "touristy" (whether that's a good thing depends on what you except from your visit).

You're very welcome to visit Barcelona! Please excuse those radicals, they don't represent us :-)

That headline seems very ambiguous :)

No, because of tourist rentals are not enough for covering the local demand, the problem is 10x bigger.

Regarding people needs, in my opinion the problem is that people in charge in local government (Barcelona city) is not focused in solving the problems, but in agitprop for increasing their own power (currently the extreme-left is governing Barcelona in minority). Also, regional government (Catalonia) is focused in doing separatist agitprop in order to hide their corruption. In top of that, central government (government of the country, Spain) has no competences to help in the housing problems, as most competences in that regard are local/regional.

Extreme left?

Sure

Thank you for clarifying.

As a Barcelona citizen, I was with the impression that Spain's central government furious attack against Catalonia people's right to self-determination was to simply to distract the fact that the central government party (Partido Popular) has over 900 politicians currently on trial with charges of corruption (more than any other party in the whole Europe).

In fact, I thought central government's current situation was great material for a potential sequel of a great movie. The sequel could be called "Wag the Dog 2" with Robert de Niro as adviser of central goverment's president Mariano Rajoy, who as you know will be forced to declare in one these trials for corruption.

So, in your opinion the best solution for Barcelona is that Spain's central government should take over and fix our housing issues in Barcelona?

Thanks in advance for elaborating on the reasons why you think it is a good idea after the chaos they created in Barcelona's airport with something much simpler as passport control.

You're a Spanish citizen, as there is no such thing as per-city citizenship in Spain. BTW, you can twist the words at your convenience, if that makes you happy.

Currently, I am technically a Spanish citizen. I like people from Spain, their food and their culture, and I even find it kind of cool that they have a king, although I do not feel he is my king in any way.

When I watch a soccer game with the Spain's national team I can equally celebrate a goal scored by them or against them if I like the goal. With Catalonia's national team (who only are allowed to play once a year) or my local team FC Barcelona (I even have a season ticket) the feelings are totally different.

Also I do not feel at all the Spanish flag is my flag. To be frank, I even have a sense of foreigness when I look at the Spanish flag, possibly because it still somehow suggests repression to me.

I strongly believe that people in Catalonia should have the right of self-determination. The culture, the language, even the traits are distinct enough to deserve it, and not be bullied because of it.

That Catalan people have the right of self-determination does not mean that all Catalan people who think they should have that right would vote to leave Spain.

I am totally neutral about if the outcome of a referendum is to leave Spain or to stay in Spain (both things have upsides and downsides at short and long term), but I'm not neutral about Catalonia's people having the right of self-determination, we should have it.

You can believe in whatever you want, have aversion to symbols, think how special you are vs other co-citizens, etc.: your free-speech is protected by the Spanish Constitution, the UE, and the UN. Mine is protected, too, and in my opinion the Catalan region culture is pretty similar to the culture of the rest of Spain, and the ones painting the Catalan region as "different", in the ethic sense, lie, or simply don't consider the majority of the Catalan population as human beings having the same rights (check Catalan people family-names: are in the same proportion as the rest of Spain; you can check also religion, gastronomy, even trash-TV show taste is similar to the Spanish average, etc.).

Regarding the "Catalan people", I am "Catalan people", too, and the only oppression I see in the Catalan region is the one pushed by the Catalan regional government towards forcing uniform ethnic brainwash from public administration and schools, in Catalan-only, instead of bilingual Spanish-Catalan. A reminder: not only Catalan-speakers -mother tongue- (35% of inhabitants of the Catalan region) have rights, Spanish-speakers (55% of inhabitants of the Catalan region) have rights, too. So next time you fight for your rights, be sure you're really fighting for your rights (I would endorse you), and not for quitting/removing/stealing other people's rights (I would not endorse you). Respect works both ways.

Kind regards.

Sorry, I believe I misunderstood you. I thought you were _against_ granting the right of self-determination to Catalan people, that is, the people who lives in Catalonia whatever language they speak. I did not catch that you endorsed fighting for rights.

Just wanted to clarify that I do not particularly support all Catalan Government policies, in fact, just a few of them.

There are many important other rights that need to be addressed such as the right to die with dignity (this is long overdue) or the right receiving education in your language, at least for major languages such as Catalan, Spanish, Arabic or English.

Please note that this is not an issue only local to Barcelona, this is an issue that also face people who speak Catalan, English or Arabic at home and live, for example, in Madrid and only receive education in Spanish (is that also "uniform ethnic brainwash"!?).

My guess is that authorizities in Barcelona or Madrid do not grant this right as to avoid segregation, but we will not know unless they try it and see actual segregation. The other alternative of teaching everybody evenly in all significant languages in our society (Catalan, Spanish, Arabic and English) might overwhelm kids.

I'm not sure if you have any actual experience with the Catalan education system or just read about it on the yellow press and that build your opinion to define it "uniform etnic brainwash". Would you share if you have any actual experience with it and what impact it had on you or your children?

In my actual experience, my three children have been fully exposed to the "uniform ethnic brainwash" Catalan education and IMHO, their Spanish is better than their Catalan is, even when we speak Catalan at home. They have some knowledge of English, but they have no knowledge of Arabic.

You can twist the words whatever you want, if that makes you happy. The self-determination right is only for very specific cases according the UN, and the Catalan region does not qualify for that. Also, the EU representatives have been very clear in that regard, as being an internal issue of Spain, and the Spanish Parliament already voted, including a majority of Catalan representatives, against a hypothetical secession, because being against the Constitution. For being short, I do support the Spanish Constitution, the rule of law, the Spanish government, the European Union, the NATO, and the United Nations.

The very same could be said about women being able to vote, same sex marriage or in the US a black guy using the same restrooms as white people or being the POTUS.

All these things were illegal by laws backed and supported by the highest, most sensible and most respected authorities back in the time, even during centuries.

But it was the determination of people to be able to make all these illegal things fully legal nowadays. This is progress.

If people wants, anything is possible. Laws are to serve people, and if they do not work, they should be changed.

People can even change a constitution.

To help you fully understand the context, the Spanish constitution was written only 3 years after a military dictatorship that lasted 40 years (2 generations) with many people afraid of the military coming back and the police charging in people's demonstrations.

I do not know if you ever have had to run in a demonstration with a policeman running behind you with a gun with a clear intent to shoot you. I did and believe me, it is really scary. You even develop a sense of foreigness for certain symbols.

The Spanish constitution can and should be changed to meet the needs of people in the 21st century. The one we have now is the bastard child of the turmoil after the military dictatorship.

The US made a war against the "White Separatism" (Confederate States of America), in order to protect the US Constitution and citizen rights. Even in more recent times, e.g. in 1955 the US Constitution protected Rosa Parks against those same xenophobic supremacists that lost the American Civil War, and were using their regional power in order to impose ethnic totalitarianism. So think your argument twice, and think if you're really on the side of the "good ones", defending individual rights, or on the ethnic totalitarian side, defending "tradition" vs civil rights. Another example: the National Guard (US Army) forced the acceptance of black students, in order to ensure their rights, honoring the US Constitution, and the rule of law. In the same way, I hope the Spain Constitution will prevail, ensuring the rights of the citizens. For the long term, I wish some kind of United States of Europe, for even better civil rights protection, against disloyal regional administrations with a hidden ethnic/separatist agenda against the rule of law (e.g. like current French and German legislations, where disloyal/separatist regional governments are explicitly forbidden in their Constitutions).

I love immigration. I loved it when it was people from Spain 30 or 40 years ago and I love it now from other countries, such as Morocco, China, Pakistan or Europe, both legal and illegal. I helped illegal immigrants with their paperwork to become legal immigrants. I do believe that the avalanche of ex-pats that decided to settle in Barcelona in the last 50-years has allowed Catalans to enjoy a more cosmopolitan environment. I even hired some of these ex-pats.

I thought about twice per your request, and I'm afraid that with my support for Catalonia's self-determination rights I'm defending individual rights. Otherwise, I would become the first ethnic totalitarian on Earth who loved immigration and helped immigrants to settle.

How do you like immigration yourself? I'm asking because the Head of the Partido Popular (Spanish central government) in Catalonia hates it [1], he is a declared xenophobe and such proneness to xenophobia often permeates to other supporters of Partido Popular and similar right-wing parties.

[1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/07/28/catalunya/1438078282_...

You "love" immigration, but you endorse the monolingual Catalan school, despite being the language of a minority of the citizens in the region. Great "democracy" example (democracy is not just "voting" -many dictatorships allowed to "vote" to cut rights-, is the rule of law and respecting people's rights).

For your information, I do like immigration, and I'm in favor of trilingual school in the Catalan region of Spain (Spanish, Catalan, English), and the more immigration coming to Spain, the better for the country, that would mean that the economy is recovering and people is willing to bet for it. BTW, you can not judge an organization based on the opinions of one person (even if what you say about that person could be true, or not). Xenophobe examples by the Catalan nationalism are endless.

I know the Catalan nationalism arguments, and I can dismount them one by one. So you're wasting your time with your propaganda on me.

The US made a war against the "White Separatism" (Confederate States of America), in order to protect the US Constitution and citizen rights.

Well, there was a bit more to it than that. If it had just been a matter of the Constitution being flaunted, and citizens being denied their rights... we might have just had a prolonged crisis, with a long period of generalized instability and violence towards minorities (kind of like we seem to be entering, in the present day).

But unfortunately the CSA had to go out of their way to initiate an all-out armed provocation with the Union, which basically forced the latter's hand, by that point. You know, this little ruckus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

In any case all this post-facto niceness about "protecting the Constitution" and all is -- just that. Invented after the fact, to help the nation recover from what was (at the time) one of the most devastating armed conflicts the planet had hitherto known.

The sort of internecine political battle that you and faragon took this thread into definitely does not belong on HN. Please don't do this again. The last thing we need here is flaming nationalist passions.

The sort of internecine political battle that you and bcncit took this thread into definitely does not belong on HN. Please don't do this again.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14473540 and marked it off-topic.

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