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Comment by kevin_b_er | Hacker News Reader

> With a Snapdragon inside your PC, you'll no longer need Wi-Fi to fetch your latest e-mail and catch up on Twitter. Instead, you'll be able to get online wherever there's cellular connectivity.

I'm not buying the optimism, especially not in the US. The cellular data is still horribly limited. In Canada it is even worse. The "unlimited" plan is surging back, but it has automatic throttling at varying points.

Oh and since we're talking Microsoft and Windows, you can't control data usage. Windows 10 uploads your personal information at unknown intervals and downloads ads and sponsored apps without consent.

What good is faster cell data with horrible data limits and an OS with a poor concept of when data is permissible even in the "Enterprise" edition?

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Three years ago, our local Spanish operator Movistar deployed the 4G mobile network and started offering an impressive 75 Mbps download speed and 25 Mbps upload speed.

At that point, the largest data plan you could get from them was 1 Gb per month (now I think you can get 2 or 3 Gb, not more).

This meant that if you used the connection to its capacity, you would hit the monthly cap in around 1 minute 50 seconds. With the current data plans it may last you 5 minutes or so, not more. With other operators you may get up to 8 Gb, i.e., around 15 minutes.

With the current pricing, this is the most useless technology ever. I don't know why they even bother (well, it suppose it probably has some advantages at their end as well).

For most people once their connection is fast enough that any given thing they try to do is not noticeably annoying due to slow download speed, their download speed and their monthly data usage are largely independent.

For example, over the 12-17 years I've had Comcast they increased my download speed from 8 mb/sec to 20 mb/sec, then to somewhere around 40 mb/sec, then to 60 mb/sec, then to 90 mb/sec, and now it is at 120 mb/sec.

I don't remember what my monthly usage was back when it was at 8 mb/sec, but from 40 mb/sec onward, and I think maybe at 20 mb/sec, my monthly usage has stayed about the same, varying between 20 to 40 GB/month.

I've always appreciated the faster speed, even though I don't use it to download more. I appreciate it because it means it takes less time to download. For instance, if I'm working at home and realize I need a big file from work to continue it might be 5 minutes to download at 120 mb/sec. It would have been 30 minutes at 20 mb/sec. The former means I can grab it while I take a bathroom break and a refill on my water, with almost no disruption to my work day. The later means a big disruption.

Around here they started offering unlimited uncapped traffic (up to 1 TB) - BUT - after you go over 5GB daily your connection is disabled and you have to send an SMS to enable extra 2GB - you can do this unlimited ammount of time (up to theoretically 1TB).

So this makes streaming, torrenting and stuff awkward but for daily internet use it's a decent option (it's a relatively inexpensive plan) - for eg. I could work remotely on this plan.

To MS's credit, Win10 does have a metered connection mode that tries to save data.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/instantanswers/633571e5-...

Not sure how this is worse than what Android or iPhone do. My apps are constantly chatting on the internet and I have zero visibility over it and any attempt to control it involves a lot of behind the scenes controls not obvious to the end user.

It ignores that setting for updates, telemetry, etc

No it doesn't. Automatic updates will not occur over metered connections. Manually initiated, sure. Unsure about telemetry.

source: seen it happen with my own two eyes

You're right. It limits, but not stops, updates on metered connections. Say you have a device that is on metered only for weeks or months, Windows will rightfully start downloading updates as not having these updates is a security risk. I think MS has made a lot of controversial decisions with Windows 10 but I don't believe consumers should have the ability to dismiss security updates out of convenience. The risk to themselves and the larger internet is far too great.

Also, putting aside the politics of telemetry data, the actual file is a compressed XML file. I don't know the real size off hand, but its just compressed text. Its not going to affect your metered connections quota. A 20kb transfer every month shouldn't bankrupt your connection.

Not to mention, its trivial to disable telemetry if you have basic technical chops. Windows updates too. Or don't use Windows if your use case is so far from the norm. Its designed for the lowest common denominator, not for techies.

Microsoft's problem is that they have conflated "security" updates and non-security and even OS version upgrades.

If my dog keeps crapping in my house I'm not going to let him back in without being housebroken.

LTE-equipped laptops have existed in the past. How is this offering going to be substantially better?

> as not having these updates is a security risk

We couldm say that; but Microsoft's definition of what critical security updates are is very different to most people's.

Not sure how this is worse than what Android or iPhone do. My apps are constantly chatting on the internet

I thought that what iOS apps can do in the background is fairly limited:

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/iP...

E.g., Dropbox can only synchronize the camera roll when you keep the app open or enable the location updates permission. Also, on iOS, you can disable cellular data for specific applications.

This is exactly why you can't get a decent photo uploader on iOS to upload in the background. The existing ones either stop after a few because iOS puts it to sleep (or whatever the term is) or they have to use location services to stay awake longer, but that's a gross hack.

I get why Apple does this. I just wish they would let me choose to have an app run as a service. Being able to sync all my photos to NextCloud while running in the background (and not divulging my location) would be great.

Developers will abuse this ability and average iPhone will be filled with apps constantly uploading usage data and downloading meaningless updates, significantly reducing battery life and performance.

Apple should just have some kind of API for background uploads. I know, that API for background HTTP downloads exists.

No. There are many other cases where "background upload" isn't enough. Like Fitness Tracker apps, that want to sync your Tracker with iOS Health in the background. There must be a more general solution.

My Garmin sports watch syncs via Bluetooth and uploads to their website in the background. What more do they need beyond this for your application? Is there a particular limitation that it can't update Apple Health in the same background operation?

And it is why you get so much better battery life on the iPhone compared to an Android device.

I did say I get why they do it.

Hasn't this market for small/light/cheap "net PCs" been proven out by Chromebooks though?

I know this isn't exactly the same thing, and the baked-in LTE is an interesting feature, but I feel like this is Microsoft going after that market specifically..

I know that if the price point was low enough, I'd get one of these as a travel machine, especially if I can get it onto my "share everything" data plan and split the usage between it and my phone ..

I already tether my Macbook Pro to my phone when I'm travelling and need on-the-go internet anyways, so it would amount to the same thing.

You've been able to limit data usage on Windows 10, if not from the start, shortly thereafter.

"Set as metered connection" under the connection settings.

You can disable telemetry at any point if you want to. The only "unwanted ad" - that everyone constantly complains about, is for onedrive. Guess what - every time I log into my mac, it asks me if I want more icloud storage. So literally the same thing. Ubuntu wasn't much better with their Amazon experience. If you're going to tell me to install Gentoo or Arch on my daily driven laptop we aren't having a rational discussion.

I've NEVER had Windows download a "sponsored app without my consent". What third party app is this you speak of?

Ubuntu no longer has the Amazon suggestions, they listened to the users, and Arch and Gentoo aren't the only alternatives to Ubuntu; Fedora, Mint, Elementary, etc are all fine and as easy to use as Ubuntu.

Why be so obviously disingenuous? Why make excuses for companies to screw your software?

I switched to Linux a long time ago and every time I'm forced to use a proprietary operating system I get reminded that I made the right decision.

I doubt any serious windows users support adware and privacy violations, only the people who invest in Microsoft.

I've had ads on Windows lock screen ("Get fun facts, tips, tricks and more on your lock screen"). I was fairly sure I had turned this off, and it was weeks before I saw an ad (replacing Spotlight background), but once I did see an ad, I wrote my own program to set the lock screen background and stayed well away from the MS Spotlight.

Spotlight itself is an ad for Edge; if you want more information on the photo, it'll pop up in Edge, not in your default browser.

Windows installed a bunch of sponsored apps / icons when I first installed it. Xbox, Skype, Groove, Money - they may all be owned by MS, but they're still crapware as far as I'm concerned.

Yes. My Android phone also has loads of Google-installed crapware. I don't see that there's any material difference....

And Google just tried to get me to sign up for Google Assistant. Ditto.

One of the most despised things, for me? In Edge, Cortana popping up, when I go to the driver download site for my laptop, "Can I interest you in a coupon?".

"No, you can't. Fuck off." Excuse the language.

You can disable Cortana

> What third party app is this you speak of?

Candy Crush Saga

> You can disable telemetry at any point if you want to.

Isn't it more like, "You can reduce telemetry at any point if you want to, until a 'bug' in an update silently resets it."

Notice they said, email and twitter. Both are things that don't use much data. They already know that AT&T and Verizon will choke the crap out of this with their false limitations.

Twitter uses a lot of data these days with autoplaying GIFs and videos...

I admit I haven't measure it recently, but I thought the new twitter mobile website was supposed to be much lighter.

Pretty sure you can disable those.

It's still going to have Wifi...

Yeah, I'm not really buying the LTE being the "killer feature" thing either. I hope Qualcomm is not betting the farm on that. Its ARM processors will have to stand on their own feet in regards to performance alone. Few people buy their laptops based on LTE support, and although I do believe it could become more popular in the future, I don't think it will have a fast pick-up, with or without Qualcomm's promotion of LTE laptops.

I definitely think it will be popular in the future. It depends on who wins the race for ubiquitous network coverage, though.

Google, Facebook, and SpaceX have all moved to initiate programs to install global high speed wifi access.

This is probably the last edge chance for cellular network companies in the long term. If wifi hits first, with projects like Google home offering free calling as well as other ip-phone services I think we could see those companies begin to fall.

I'm taking the rather long view, though.

For average, non-power users, I could see these being quite popular -- especially if they can handle Windows 10, MS Office, some light Photoshop, and fast internet. Otherwise I wouldn't mind one to turn into a highly portable Linux machine -- stars in my eyes, and all that.

Is tethering too complicated for most people? Simpler tethering seems like it would be more helpful here than a new CPU architecture that also requires people to have a second SIM they need to get on their plan.

No, it's just too clunky in this day of instant gratification/”almost every application expects network access”/”computer is a communication tool not (only) an information-processing device”.

For most users, I would say yes. Of course they want it to be as seamless and simple as possible to connect to information.

Tethering is hardly a second thought for most people who are comfortable with the technology, but you're forgetting most of the rest of the world here, as well as a lot of people outside the tech realm. Never mind people who currently live outside of high-speed wired internet zones -- with cell coverage reaching further than wired zones lately I'd consider the option a boon to connectivity.

I fail to see the real downside to the public. Maybe you can elucidate further.

There's no downside to having this as an option, I just wonder if this feature will drive any consumer demand.

Consider how annoyed people have been at the Apple dongle situation. Sure they'll grunt through it but they want something better and less complicated. To the HN crowd, a phone tied to a computer to access all of the world's information is a large bit of genius (I used to dream about it when I was a kid... before everybody had cellphones), but to most users its just another thing dangling about that they have to connect and disconnect and remember to shut off tether mode and so on and so on.

If its in one package, and its as easy as hitting "connect", I think it will sell. That and consider cottage-goers who dislike disconnecting, or people who live outside of highspeed zones. Or even the connectivity-paranoid (script kiddies aren't so likely to start hijacking cellular connections as they are to bite you through an insecure coffeshop wifi). Doctors Without Borders might benefit, and other like travelling charity groups. I'm just spitballing, but I can see cases.

Though, a lot of my speculation depends on price points.

> Consider how annoyed people have been at the Apple dongle situation.

Do you mean the USB-C with the gazillion required adapters or new cables?

It's relevant you bring up Apple, because if you have a MacBook and an iPhone, and pair it via Bluetooth, the a tethering option shows up in your WiFi menu that you can easily select, same as any other WiFi network.

The advantage of it being an easy, yet manual process is that you can't accidentally use it and blow through your data. I do wish they would go the extra step and build "limit what you do because you're on a metered connection" support into macOS.

Good point. I really enjoy how easy it is on a mac when I'm on the train or something.

The difficulty for average users is the knowledge that you can tether, setting it up, and remembering to turn it off. The UI's are good at reminding you, but even I've forgotten if I've had to run off the train because I got caught up in work.

Metering (with overrides) would help absolutely!

I'd love to tether, but don't because my carrier (AT&T) won't enable it for a single device, only for all accounts on my family plan. My family could easily (even innocently) use up our monthly data allotment in a day.

Also, how can you limit data usage while tethering? Can a device tell if it's tethered, or does it just assume it has a normal wifi connection? Do you need to turn off automatic updates on laptops?

None of this is solved by having a modem in your computer though.

Though Windows 10 does let you mark a connection as metered, though I don't think anything except the OS pays attention to that. But again, that's orthogonal to whether your laptop has a modem and will likely not be solved.

The short answer is yes Windows typically does know it is on a metered connection and doesn't do anything like update downloading. If it doesn't automatically detect it you can also mark that connection as being a metered connection and it will remember it. I'm not sure about tethering but when using built-in LTE you can even set what your plan limit is.

Not every modem can be marked as a metered connection. I'm using one such modem right now. And Windows decides at whim to ignore metered connection settings.

> Otherwise I wouldn't mind one to turn into a highly portable Linux machine -- stars in my eyes, and all that.

Assuming you'll be able to boot Linux on such a device, that might still require exploiting some yet-to-be-found bugs to root it, and/or voiding its warranty. BTW good luck with GPU drivers, multitouch, exotic sensors...

I thought that was part of the fun

I'm hoping it'll help modernize the enterprise/commercial side of things. If you've ever had to deal with these types of devices, you'd realize they're very antiquated. http://www.micronet-inc.com/products/product-techspecs.aspx?...

These Windows 10 laptops are using a Snapdragon 835, which is a smartphone chip that has just started appearing in smartphones. It's just a bonus business for Qualcomm.

Whether they take off or not will depend on many factors besides LTE. Those include size, weight, battery life, performance, Win32 compatibility, marketing, advertising, availability and price.

Who gives you unlimited data in Canada? I checked with Fido and Freedom pop and they both said they don't offer it.

Freedom will throttle after plan limit, but you can continue using it at the throttled speed indefinitely.

Which means it's very much limited.

Freedompop, at least stateside, has a $25 unlimited 3g plan. It just isn't listed in the options, but you can request it (at least in the US).

That makes me think of an Android "laptop" Toshiba made that had this silly bright notification light.

Back before Google had a little civil war between Android and ChromeOS...

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