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Comment by KitDuncan | Hacker News Reader

Not only is a plant based diet healthy, and every study that tells otherwise is obviously paid by the livestock industry; it's also the only environmentally sustainable diet. I really don't get how so many highly intelligent people acknowledge those facts and still put their tastebuds over everything else. It's not like vegan food can't be absolutely delicious either.

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While I agree with you about the ethics of our current methods for raising animals, I disagree that veganism is the answer.

First, animals are a necessary part of ecosystems. For example, ruminants control grass growth, and they effectively transform energy in those grasses into a form that ultimately supports an entire food chain. If you eliminate ruminants from grassland, you lose insects, which feed birds and rodents, who feed larger predators, and so on. Controlling grass growth also leads to more plant biodiversity, which tends to further increase animal biodiversity.

Second, animals are a great way to "recycle" food waste into delicious meat and fertilizer. Pigs and chickens are perfectly happy consuming things we find completely unpalatable. We use a lot of resources growing food specifically for these animals, while simultaneously throwing out a ridiculous amount of food grown for humans. Pretty silly.

Ultimately, animals can be raised in an ethical and environmentally sustainable manner. This might entail a significant increase in the price of meat, but that's alright. The current low price of meat is something of a historical anomaly anyhow.

As for health, almost all the blue zone diets include a small amount of meat (about 4oz a day).

Meat consumption is the primary driver in loss of biodiversity: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969715...

There really isn't a conflict between the fact that ruminants can provide an important ecological service to grasslands, and the fact that CAFOS/meat factories cause ecosystem devastation.

The problem is that our economic system doesn't have a clear way to account for the ecological costs of one approach vs the ecological benefits of the other, so good meat is expensive and bad meat is cheap. Whoops.

Yeah, so I have always eaten both meats and veggies. My blood results still showed a vitamin B12 deficiency. I was already noticing symptoms like anemia, mental fog, lack of energy, etc. I upped my meat intake to mainly grass-fed, fatty beef, and my latest tests show a normal level. You cannot get B12 from plants, period.

Meat is necessary for human life. Saying otherwise is dangerous. After seeing my experience, my wife (vegetarian for almost a decade) has started eating meat again. This isn't something worth dying over.

It's not true that "you cannot get B12 from plants, period" [1]. You can get trace amounts from various edible land plants, but dietarily significant quantities from some algae. Also fermentation of some plants can provide B12-rich foods.

It's fair to say that vegans need to take particular care that they get sufficient B12.

1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4042564/

Just supplement it? B12 isn't meat or animal product specific at all. It's created by bacteria in soil and our species becoming overly hygenic is the reason for us not getting enough B12. The only reason why meat contains it, is because livestock is getting it supplemented as well. I just like to skip the middleman.

Do you know there have been millions or billions of healthy vegetarians living on this planet? Maybe some people do need supplements, or even meat, but that doesn't make it "a necessity for human life", proof is in the human lifes that are vegetarians from birth and didn't die from B12 def.

That is kind of surprising. I had to go on a low protein mostly vegetarian diet due to failing kidneys and have tested my vitamin B12 levels multiple times and they were perfectly within range. I still did go on low dose supplements as a precaution. But there are a few food products like cereal that are fortified with various vitamins anyway.

B12 isn't made by animals nor plants. The safest way to consume B12 is via supplements and fortified foods.

Watch this video by Dr. Greger for more info https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA3XjalOkXM

It takes a long time to become b12 deficient, especially so if you're eating meat. Maybe consider that you may have an absorption issue, like Celiac disease.

B12 deficiency can also occur due to a digestive disorder in the stomach. Some people benefit from supplemental B12, taken e.g. as lozenge (absorbed through the mucus membrane of the mouth) or injection. Some people even inhale it: [1].

[1] https://vitaminvape.co/science/

That is super relevant to my interests! ;) Last time I got checked, I had a serious deficiency and got injections. Definitely looking into that. Thanks for the link!

Here is a link with even more options: [1]

[1] http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/alternative...

Ummm... I've been a strict vegetarian for more than three decades now. I was an extreme endurance athlete, consuming in excess of 12,000 calories a day in my 20's with a vegetarian diet. I've never had a B12 or any other vitamin deficiency and the last time I saw a doctor was in my early 40's due to chest pain after a swimming workout which ultimately was the result of over-developed lungs getting caught on my rib-cage. After running numerous tests, the cardiologist was laughing at me when I walked into his office on my follow-up. He said my physical age was in-line with a 20 year old, not a 40 year old and that he'd seen maybe one other person in his years of practice in as good of physical conditioning. It sucks you had a vitamin deficiency but, you can get all the nutrients you need from a vegetarian diet.

> and every study that tells otherwise is obviously paid by the livestock industry

That is ridiculous. A vegan diet is a diet of deficiencies. Some collected notes:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hoG5ATcIqwxzvHktWywBJ7L_...

Maybe highly intelligent people don't want to erode their brains.

You know food deficiencies are very common among average americans as well right? Even the B12 defeciency which is the only consistently recorded deficiency among vegans, is VERY common amongst omnivores.

I am getting my blood tested regularly and all of my values are absolutely perfect. Sure if you're planning on eating only vegan junk food you're going to encounter deficiencies, but don't tell me it would be any different if you only ate at MC Donalds.

Yep... McDonald's is inherently unhealthy... And we have a complete understanding of exactly what every human should eat... Without deviation. One way for everyone.

http://www.today.com/health/man-loses-56-pounds-after-eating...

Eight major food allergens – milk, egg, peanut, tree nuts, wheat, soy, fish and crustacean shellfish – are responsible for most of the serious food allergy reactions in the United States. Allergy to *sesame is an emerging concern.

Dude just because a fat guy starts restricting his calories and goes from an incredibly unhealthy cholesterol value to a slightly less catastrophic cholesterol value doesn't make McDonalds healthy. How anybody can take this serious is beyond me.

How do you argue that an environmentally sustainable diet is important to someone that has no concern for environmental sustainability, nor any interest in such things?

Also, why do you assume highly intelligent people are predisposed to care about environmental sustainability?

Because sustaining the environment is important to all our survival?

Evidence? I'm all for environmental sustainability, but there are very few people who would have their survival threatened by any environmental changes in their lifetime. For those few on an island somewhere who very well could be threatened in their lifetime, there is no intervention that will prevent that change - the damage is already done.

Looking further than that, technology has historically found solutions and we seem to get better at technology every day. Beyond that, climate change is just 'change' - the new may be just as livable as the old, albeit with significant differences in e.g. population distribution.

If you think about what sustainability means, being unsustainable isn't all that bad; it just means you'll have to change at some point, either when you have a choice or when you don't. In the absolutely terminal case, where we don't make any effort to be sustainable, we're looking at lifestyle changes and maybe a population contraction - not the survival of the species.

Sustainability is nice and good - who likes change, really? - but there is no case to be made for it being an issue of survival.

Well even if it's not for environmental sustainability, just sustainability in general is not given with the current western diet, since it takes a lot more land to farm livestock, than to farm plants. With population and meat consumption rising it will be impossble to sustain your diet.

Also however you look at it, you can't agree with deforestation for cattle grazing land. The livestock industry is responsible for the extinction of most animals today. It's a shame we are sacrificing wild live diversity, just because we can't stop eating meat with three meals a day.

Those are all very good points. Personally I'm a big fan of sustainability and at the very least emphasizing poultry over beef would be a good move, with vegetable alternatives being a longer term aspiration. Even today I've found a lot of e.g. veggie burger type things are better than the beef alternative and more sustainable.

I would just prefer to see legitimate, provable, current consequences used to convince people. The "we need it for our very survival" is unconvincing on its own right, and downright harmful when it takes the place of legitimately compelling reasoning. The public (who are the ones that need convincing) have a hard time grasping cause and effect on timescales greater than they lifespan.

I hear you, but I think we need to take sustainability a little more seriously now while we have the luxury of a prosperous world. I think it's foolish to assume that technology will continue to bail us out at the current level of pressure we are putting on the planet's resources. More likely we will hit an inflection point where some pillar of our economy (eg. oil) becomes too expensive, and combine that with some refugee crisis created by climate change, and the federal government will not be able to maintain control. I hope it doesn't happen, but I feel like it's the most likely outcome on a 50-200 year time frame.

>but there is no case to be made for it being an issue of survival.

There is the acidification of the ocean due to the absorption of carbon dioxide, which is slowly bleaching all the coral on Earth.

Many developing countries' food security comes from using reefs like natural fisheries. The collapse of a national industry has many possible effects, however "massively improved quality of life" is not one of them.

And ocean acidification isn't a long-term process. Right now carbon emissions are over 10 times what they were during the paleocene-eocene thermal maximum. You can expect to see these changes come to fruition within 70 years if we continue business as usual.

> I'm all for environmental sustainability, but there are very few people who would have their survival threatened by any environmental changes in their lifetime. For those few on an island somewhere who very well could be threatened in their lifetime, there is no intervention that will prevent that change - the damage is already done.

Environmental changes to coastal regions doesn't just mean flooding.

It means the eco-system changes, and the things that live there are no longer able to live there, which means the humans who rely on those things have to leave. Some of those people are going to die because of it.

http://www.irinnews.org/feature/2017/05/23/vietnam%E2%80%99s...

There are highly intelligent people that don't factor our survival as species in their decision making.

So because they don't care it's ok to destroy the planet for everyone else. That's what I call narcissistic.

I don't think it's intellectually honest to refer to anyone that lacks interest in environmental sustainability as narcissistic.

Well obviously if health, ethics and environmental sustainability aren't a concern to you, then I don't expect you to go on a plant based diet.

Many otherwise intelligent people do care about the environment though (driving electric cars) and still eat meat and animal products.

One can go on a plant-based diet for health benefits alone with complete disregard for environmental sustainability, and by the same token one can live an ethical life without regard for environmental sustainability.

I'm still confused -- why do you assume highly intelligent people are predisposed to caring about environmental sustainability?

So i got to gym regularly and i need ~150 grams of protein a day. Please tell me how will i get this from plant based diet.

Oh and i grew up a vegetarian and only vegetarian diet that i can eat regularly is Indian cuisine. Rest of vegetarian diet is just not delicious enough to eat regularly.

I usually get most of my protein for my workout supplemented by protein shakes, but other than that dairy products are very high in protein, also beans, peas, nuts, etc.. and there are a lot of other potential sources if you google around.

Yep though you missed the gold standard for 'complete' proteins - eggs.

The biological value of proteins is measured against egg protein as the benchmark (I'm sure there are few proteins that exceed the egg but they are readily available, easily prepared and cheap as a protein source).

Where i grew up (India), eggs was considered non-vegetarian. Maybe he didn't miss it.

Eggs are not plant based.

Beans don't help you when you are avoiding carbs. Nuts are insanely high in calories.

If you are eating around 1800 calories a day and trying to avoid cards, there aren't many options.

Come on we are on hacker news. I expect you to be able to find protein values of plants by yourself. Plants not containing enough protein is an absolute myth and it's astonishing to me that there are still people believing in it.

Go eat lentils, chickpeas, beans, soy products and hemp protein and it should be more than easy to get enough protein. There are world champion UFC fighters and olympia athletes on a vegan diet and I am pretty sure, they don't have any problems getting their protein.

Also checkout youtube. There are a lot of vegan bodybuilders sharing their recipes.

Beans - they have carbs.

Lentils - I agree.

About World Champion UFC fighters, can you name me some?

Nate & Nick Diaz are the most popular ones I think. I don't really follow the sport, but a quick google search should yield a few more results.

Neither were UFC Champions and they actually eat sea food. :)

Check out this site:

http://www.fuelforthefighter.com/the-fighter/

Beans and nuts could get you pretty far towards that. Then make up the rest with a nice soy based protien powder.

Nuts are pretty high in calories though. 100g of mixed nuts contain ~600 calories. That's around 1/3rd of my calories gone. Compare that to a chicken breast, 100g of chicken breasts has 165 calories.

You find out by studying what other athletes with a plant based diet eat.

Here are a few to get you started

What Frank Medrano eats (vegan calisthenics athlete)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ9sfVsBbS8

What Patrick Baboumian eats (vegan strongman)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz9H7MMuKjY

Body building advice - plant based diet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr4LIOq3grw

And there are plenty of vegan or vegetarian body builder communities out there, like this one

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

Knew about Frank medrano, but didn't know about others. Thanks for that.

Here is a link I created (independently of this discussion) with vegetables with the highest amount of protein.

https://www.menutail.com/blog/51/Top_10_Vegetarian_Foods_Hig...

Should I eat eggs, drink coffee or have a cup of wine this month? Just these days: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-39998678

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