Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
a bodyguard is seen talking to someone in the back of a car. That bodyguard nods to another bodyguard, who then walks towards the protest. The attack begins the second he arrives at the line.
Later, the person in the back of the car gets out. It's Erdogan.
This video didn't get as much press as it should have, I suppose since you can't say it's "proof" he ordered the attack. But come on.
I wonder if with modern machine learning backed algorithms, we can do a semi-decent job at reading some of the lips in that video.
If the perpetrators of the violence shown in the video are not charged with criminal acts, I think this means we are no longer operating under rule of law.
That video is in the article, specifically talking about the possibility of Erdogan ordering the attack.
Licensing perhaps?
Mr. Yildrim does not appear to have diplomatic immunity, so why aren't assault and battery charges being levied against him?
That's exactly what it is. The hosting country can ONLY just tell them they are "persona non grata". (Expel them.)
Of course, they may face charges in their home country or be extradited. Their home country can waive their diplomatic immunity - and do so for their diplomats acting criminally in other countries.
But 100% of all of these actions are on the home country. The host country can do absolutely nothing besides expel them or complain to their home country.
Let me know if you see anything to the contrary here or anywhere else online:
https://www.state.gov/m/ds/c9127.htm
Note in particular that rather a lot of categories allow the offender to be detained or arrested, and to be prosecuted if their actions were not "official acts". (And if "beat up those protesters" were formally affirmed as an official act, I suspect that would have more serious consequences than just prosecuting a few security staff members. Assuming the current administration didn't just give Erdogan a high five, anyway.)
The host country can do anything they want. Whether or not it will cause further problems is based on the balance of power between various nations.
As an obviously ridiculous example: imagine Osama bin Laden showed up in NYC with diplomatic immunity. There is zero chance he would not be arrested, regardless of what some words say.
We're still dealing with the consequences of a war we started for apparently no reason other than than wanting to do it. Maybe we should raise the bar for going to war, and not keep lowering it.
The problem is that Turkey is a member of NATO and a key US ally in the Middle East, which makes going to war with them .. inconvenient.
One thing that I found intriguing as an engineer is that Ertogan's bodyguards etc are trying to shout louder than the protesters.
At first I thought ok thats natural, 2 parties have a disagreement and then each tries to be louder.
The sound from Ertogan's trained personnel thought isn't exactly an argument. You'll hear through the whole video the sound : 'EEEEEEEEEE' coming up from his bodyguards which is definitely not argument, just a way to mask protesters voice.
So to conclude my point, is that Ertogan has trained soldiers trying to shout louder than the protesters so he won't hear anything bad about him. Pretty much the same he is doing to his country by blocking wikipedia etc.
I can only think of one other person that would do such a thing, Kim.
In the short term, I agree with John McCain, the Turkish ambassador to the U.S. should be expelled over this event.
What precedes all of this is the U.S. supports the YPG, which Erdogan considers a terrorist organization. Pretty much any Kurdish organization is probably considered a terrorist organization to the Turkish government, however. The U.S. supports the YPG, makes Erdogan look weak in that he doesn't have enough sway to get one of their worst domestic political and ethnic enemies disenfranchised by the U.S. so Erdogan retaliates with thugs right in the U.S. capitol to embarrass the Trump (and last year the Obama) adminstration. It's tit for tat.
Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and purpose.
Unless Turkey loses control of the Bosphorous straits or Russia stops being what it is, Turkey will always be welcome at the table. Help with Daesh and/or pushing democratic ideas is neither the purpose of NATO, nor the origin of NATO, nor the future of NATO.
And Erdogan, right now, is doing the opposite of that. It is completely valid to question Turkey's role in NATO, but the current U.S. president doesn't care about or even understand what democracy is, because he's an ignoramous about pretty much everything. All he cares about is "winning" and that's why he praises autocrats like Erdogan, Duerte, Salman, Kim Jong Un, and el-Sisi, while criticizing American allies. I think he's kinda jealous of autocrats who get things done and doesn't have to deal with silly legislatures and courts. So I have no doubt that this administration will be fine with Turkey staying in NATO for the foreseeable future despite the incongruity on democratic values.
I strongly dislike Erdogan and his policies, and certainly don't approve the attack but YPG is a different issue. It is sad that most outsiders' view about the Kurdish conflict boils down to 'Turkey hates Kurds'. It's just not like that. We should all unite against terrorism.
[1]: http://www.coedat.nato.int/publication/datr/volume8-2016/01-... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party
Let's hope the fourth estate holds the first three accountable.
From my point of view, it seems that the State Department diplomats and bureaucrats have turned into ball-less, useless functionaries that care more about the feelings of foreign heads of state than the civil rights of US citizens.
If that weren't the case, these people would have been expelled from the US with strongly worded diplomatic requests/suggestions/demands that they be tried for their actions in a Turkish court. That's how it's supposed to work at least.
not to mention the us has better foundation of democracy.
Good thing is, the US has the checks and balances that would make it really hard for him to achieve his potential goal. It takes more than one guy to make it happen.
I have seen it first hand, in Turkey.
Also feel free to body slam any reporter you don't like asking you annoying questions about healthcare either, you won't face any repercussions from the GOP.
And I'm sure there won't be any consequences in the future - it's not a Trump thing to anger like-minded friends.
Diplomatic immunity is part of international law and exists for good reasons. See the Vienna Convention:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomati...
If you think that concept is wrong, why not address that or argue for the US to be exempt from the Vienna Convention?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/05/17/h...
EDIT: I found it [0]
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic...
I plan to travel to D.C. then and stand in solidarity with anyone who wants to express their freedom of speech within the borders of the US.
Mr. Erdogan and his thuggish retinue insulted the very nature of his hosts, who have been far too gracious to some very undeserving guests.
Don't want to get diverted into politics but I was appalled by not only the incident itself but the fact that Turkey then summoned the US ambassador in Ankara to complain about DC police trying to break up the fight. This is not a healthy sign for the future.
> About twenty police officers, forming a special forces unit, the Dienst Speciale Interventies, masked and equipped with body armour and automatic weapons, arrested ten members of Kaya's bodyguard, on suspicion of illegally carrying firearms
> A stand-off ensued for several hours in which the Turkish minister refused to leave the car.[7] Just after midnight, a special heavy tow truck, a lift flatbed, was driven into the yard and prepared to vertically hoist the 3.5 tonne car on the flatbed, with the minister still in it, to transport her back to Germany.
(Turkey is probably long past its last free election and we're going to have to work out how to deal with one of the largest European NATO members being an Islamist dictatorship)
I don't think this has much to do with politics. If you're right, left or center, libertarian or authoritarian, doesn't matter, it's basic morality that this unwarranted aggression is wrong and must have consequences. If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term.
This particular president offered to pay the bail for anyone who "kicked the crap" out of protesters at one of his campaign rallies... I doubt he even sees it as a problem.
What happened is the Turks are thugs, and when they heard/saw pro PKK "protestors" they consider "terrorists" they wanted to make an example of them. I'm guessing it was also a distraction technique for Erdogan to proceed to wherever he was headed.
What is most shameful to me, is the response from the DC police. If armed foreign thugs are attacking americans, It's time to escalate force. They were straight up sucker-kicking/punching women and old men already on the ground... shots that could have killed or could cause concussion or brain damage.
What no one is talking about is how deeply Turkey has infiltrated the US intel community (lookup Sibel Edmonds for more info), or the fact they we let Turkey get away with this stuff because of geostrategic realpolitik. Turkey is also funding and arming ISIS against the Kurds because to them the Kurds are a greater threat.
I think we should be treating this as an attack by the government of Turkey against United States civilians. They are no longer an ally. I suspect that we unfortunately have more to lose than Turkey by ending our friendly relationship, but so be it. Staying in a dysfunctional relationship isn't good for either country.
I would like to see the bodyguards prosecuted, but at the same time I expect they are operating under some kind of threat worse than what the United States legal system could potentially do to them. Maybe their wives and daughters will be arrested if they don't attack certain protesters? They may be in a no-win situation. The best thing may be to just get them to leave and not return, even if that offends our sense of justice.
And look what happened here. Helpless citizens, being beaten and attacked in plain site, in front of police, and even recorded doing it. And not a damn thing is done. Screw geo-politics, the police should by all means have escalated immediately, called for backup and arrested/shot the assailants. That is their job, we are told. You need only hypothesize what would have happened if this was a gathering of some sort of gang, and it was assaulting individuals the same way.
This is a "war lord" from another land, attacking your citizens in front of you. The blatant double-standard should be enough to throw up red-flags for every single citizen seeing it.
I have heard this argument from multiple sources regarding this event but it seems to be based on a misunderstanding of how things like this work, so I strongly disagree. I've been trained on similar situations, and I know the escalation of force procedures in general (DC police are weird sometimes), and the second they saw Turkish nationals punching and kicking old men and women on the ground is the second they should have been escalating force. No, lightly tapping a dude sucker punching a woman on the ground with a baton on the back is not good enough. Sorry, but it simply isn't. I've been beaten worse in fucking training scenarios as the protestor.
Again, the real issue here to me is the lackidasical way in which the DCPD responded. IF they were afraid to enforce the law outside of the embassy there is a much bigger problem here than people are talking about. The same thing works for Americans in embassies abroud. They have a close relationship with and work with the host countries police and other forces... but they are notoriously well trained to not engage beyond embassy perimiter unless absolutely necessary. The fact that you think we should be afraid to enforce the law on Turkish nationals outside but close to their embassy says to me that if you are right, that embassy needs to be shut down, but in general I think you are wrong.
Now, I'm not a cop. I used to be a knuckle-dragging door-kicker, not a fat mall cop like most of the pd in the video look like. I don't know exactly what the pd's should have done, but I do know what they did wasn't it.
To put it another way. If American DSS (Diplomatic Security Service) showed up in England escorting Trump near the new US embassy, and the DSS rushed British protestors and just start fucking them up, I would fully support and expect the Brits to have arrested every single one, wait for diplomatic immunity to be verified (or not), and then proceed accordingly (persona-non-grata for those with, arrest and charge for those without). What I would not expect is to just let DSS walk back to their embassy as if they hadn't broken a dozen laws.
The thing that bugs me isn't the police response, it's that there seems to have been no consequences for the Turkish embassy or our relationship with Turkey. Maybe a row of tanks parked on the lawn would have been needlessly dramatic, but at least it would have sent a clear message and escalated force in such a way that Erdogan's security forces would have been at a tactical disadvantage.
So far it seems the Trump administration's response is that this was just a normal day (and we're left with the general impression that there may have been a few fist-bumps and high-fives in private).
Also, law abiding US citizens can barely get the government's permission to exercise their 2nd amendment rights in Washington, how do foreign body guards manage that?
Good to know.
I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights. Heck, they don't even know or understand what freedom of speech is.
Yes, and that's very much the point.
Next thing you know there was an arrest squad between her car and the Turkish embassy with instructions to shoot if necessary. They managed to de-escalate the situation and sent madam home mission not accomplished. Never seen anything like that here.
Never mind, the Netherlands, I am dumb.
Peaceful assembly is absolutely the way to go. My point is rather that foreign actors are violently squashing peaceful protests, so it seems foolish not to come prepared.
Have you never seen examples of US police beating/gassing/hosing/shooting nonviolent protestors before?
Don't complain to the NYT, go complain at Apple. It's Apple's fault that in mid-2017, there is STILL no way for inline videos in ordinary HTML5 web sites.
But, I admit, there's one single huge advantage: iOS devices are not hit with sometimes dozens of megabytes of traffic due to news sites auto-loading/playing videos, or worse, ad videos...
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/turkish-embassy-protes...