Hacker News Reader

Comment by iaskwhy | Hacker News Reader

"If you buy an Apple laptop, and need a repair, they'll fix it if it's in warranty, regardless of where you are."

This can be misleading. I bought my Macbook Air in Portugal, had 2y warranty there. Then moved to the UK and the brick stopped working. Went to an Apple Store and since it was after the 1y warranty offered when you buy it in the UK, they rejected replacing it for me. Eventually went to Portugal to visit my family and got a new brick from the same store in 5 minutes. On a curious note, there's no Apple Stores in Portugal yet so in this particular case it was even more interesting to realise how much better help I got from a non-official store.

View on HN

I bought a MacBook in the UK and some time later when I was in the US they keyboard became faulty.

I walked in to a US Apple store and explained the problem. The Genius person agreed there was a fault and then started tapping away at their computer. He umm'ed and ahh'ed and called over a manager.

At this point I was thinking they were going to reject the warranty repair for some reason, but the manager ended up apologizing that they didn't have any UK-style MacBook replacement keyboards in stock, and they couldn't work out how to order the part in on their US system.

As it happens I had moved to the US, so getting a US keyboard was actually a bonus. I told them I was happy with a US keyboard, and 10 minutes later I was leaving the store with it installed in my MacBook.

counter example.

I had to take my MacBook in three times durnig its life, for the same issue (wifi/bt issues because of aircard connection to VM)

Every single time I was told to make an appointment. Which take about 3 days to get. They took the laptop and spend a week fixing it (every time!) My experience at Multiple Apple stores in Southren Ontario.

I believe after the third repair, they'll replace the entire machine with a new model.

Pardon my ignorance but what is the difference in the UK style keyboard vs the US style keyboard? Is the 4/$ replaced with the 4/£ key? Wouldn't this be problematic when programming (for example variable substitution on the shell etc.)?

There are quite a few differences. You can see what they are by looking at the Keyboard prefs in MacOS and loading different localisations.

4/$ still works, but some of the other symbols are in different places.

The UK keyboard layout still has $ above 4, but it has £ above 3. In order to get #, you have to hit ⌥3. You can also hit ⌥2 to get €. I think a couple of keys like backslash and backtick are moved around as well.

> I think a couple of keys like backslash and backtick are moved around as well.

Yes. US ISO layout is superior if you need to do any programming (or even just to write some Markdown), too bad it's not used more.

Inclined to disagree - depends on your keymap and software you use. If I were to add keyboard shortcuts to my program I'm sure as hell not gonna use a key that I can't get to on my keyboard.

On German keyboards it's even 'worse' though. Because ;, [ and ] are used for ä, ö and ü, [ and ] are Strg + ⇧ + 8 and Strg + ⇧ + 9. Same for { and }.

(Strg = Ctrl)

So any keyboard shortcut involving those and ⇧ or Ctrl is pretty much impossible.

Nope. ~` key is next to Z, Enter is vertical. \| is next to "'.

The labeling is actually cooler, with images instead of "Shift", "Tab" etc.

http://www.thebookyard.com/images/mbutcuk_notp.jpg

I'm sitting here staring at my US keyboard and scratching my head. All of the Menu shortcuts align perfectly with the UK keyboard's iconography but not the US keyboard which opts for labels. And why do we have a key labeled both enter and return?

I noticed that in the US almost all signage uses text instead of symbols. For example, writing "No smoking" on a sign, where in Europe you would have a crossed-out cigarette.

I don't really understand why this is done, since well-made symbols are also understandable for illiterate people or those not speaking the language.

In Europe you have a lot of languages and nations mixed. People who design signs know and care about that. In US you have a huge country where everyone speaks the same language. People who design signs don't even know it's a problem that needs to be solved.

Many signs are written both in English and Spanish all over. Even in rural-ish North Carolina.

Explain to me the difference between these three signs: 1. a bicycle on a blue circle, 2. a bicycle on a white circle outlined in red, and 3. a bicycle on a blue square.

On the other hand having to read all that in text while you're riding by isn't very reasonable either. Complex signage is only as good as your knowledge of it, which maybe is why passing a driving test in Europe is so much harder; it requires knowledge we just get from being able to read in the US.

>1. a bicycle on a blue circle

Only bicycles

>2. a bicycle on a white circle outlined in red

No bicycles.

>3. a bicycle on a blue [rectangle]

Recommended route for bicycles.

You're missing the point -- that's very non-obvious if you haven't studied the signs.

I agree, some signs need to be learned, and traffic signs are a prime example of that. On the other hand, many signs with fewer fine distinctions can be made with pictograms that require no prior knowledge of conventions.

That being said, traffic signage is a mixture of both, where some meaning is given by convention (e.g., white background and red border means "not allowed"), and then extrapolated by pictograms (bicycles not allowed, trucks not allowed, pedestrians not allowed).

Edit: A certain cultural context is of course always required, to know for example that a crossed out cigarette applies to smoking in general and doesn't mean that you can smoke pipes, cigars, or bongs. Such 'misunderstandings' only happen with QA engineers though. ;)

It was a comment for Americans who might not know the signs; not really an argument.

But really, if you're driving then you should have done a driving exam and test in your home country. Then you're ready to drive from Romania to Ireland (with the help of some tunnels and ferries) and be able to manage reading the road signs the whole way. This is possible because of a (mostly) shared iconography. Of course, on a bike you don't need to pass a test but you should do a little bit of studying to make sure you don't get a fine.

The US doesn't need this because it uses English.

This is also completely distinct from keyboards which aren't even QWERTY across Europe. There are also AZERTY (France) and QWERTZ (Germany) and some countries like Belgium have all three in the same office as people have different preferences. And pair programming is as painful as you can imagine.

blue circle: something you MUST do (in this case, indicates a path that can only be taken by bycicles)

white circle with red outline: something that is forbidden (the road is forbidden for bycicles)

the last one indicates a bycicle-only path crossing the road, 150 meters before it you should see a white triangle outlined in red ("danger") with a bycicle inside it

Historically the Macintosh distinguished between Enter and Return. IIRC on the Lisa the Return key was on the main part of the keyboard and the Enter key was on the numeric keypad. In many apps they did the same thing, but I think in LisaCalc the Enter key would enter the contents of the selected cell and leave it selected. Return would do the same and then select the cell below. IIRC the Mac version of Microsoft Multiplan did the same.

On the MBP I'm typing this on, the key is labeled enter in small type and below that return in larger type. I think holding down the fn key and pressing that key does the enter action, while without fn it does the return action. I am pretty sure my full-size Mac keyboard has return on the main keyboard and enter on the numeric keypad. I think the Lisa was the same.

IIRC there was no Enter key on the original (128K) Mac keyboard, but the optional numeric keyboard had the Enter key.

Apple have an old user interface guideline that basically said that the main keyboard was for primarily typing text, while traditional data entry was secondary. Hence the function of the Return key was strictly to insert a carriage return into some text. And so no Enter or Control key on the original keyboard. As a kind of substitute Apple introduced the Command (Swedish campground) key, but it wasn't a direct mapping of Control. And IBM further muddied the waters by introducing CUA. By the time of the Mac II the default keyboard was much more compatible with common computers. It was a time of rapid change.

By the way, the Mac I'm using now was bought in Australia and the keyboard has a rectangular Return key and the modifiers labeled using text rather than icons.

Non-mac layout is different again. Here's a pic of a Dell laptop I have knocking around: http://imgur.com/a/w5GVC [ could do with a clean! ]

> [ could do with a clean! ]

It's a disgusting view, I'll give you that

Yep, didn't come out pretty with the camera flash :)

There are two separate issues that need to be distinguished:

1. Physical keyboard layout (how keys are placed). There are two primary standards: ANSI (mostly US) and ISO (most of Europe). The most notable difference is the shape of the Enter key (L-shaped on an ISO keyboard and straight on an ANSI one). ISO keyboards also have one extra key and a shorter left Shift to make space for it.

2. Logical keyboard layout (how key presses are interpreted). This is what is printed on key caps, but it doesn't have any relation to the actual scan codes being sent. Many languages use their own accented characters (e.g. ąęćłóńżź for Polish) and historical preferences (e.g. QWERTY/QWERTZ/AZERTY), but this is implemented in software.

Logical layout can be easily configured in the operating system, and for touch typists it doesn't really matter what is printed on the keys, but differences in physical layout can take some time to get used to.

PS. I'm Polish, I live in the UK, and I type on a US mechanical keyboard with ANSI layout :)

https://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_ISO

The ISO layout is pretty superior in many small ways for non-english speakers but that's a really nice description of it in that link there.

As a UK->US transplant I really miss the Enter key shape. :(

I miss this even as an American. The old 8088 computers I grew up with had reverse-L enter keys.

Having recently (5 months) switched from UK to US layout, I find `/~ location to be more convenient on UK layout.

First, it's somehow easier to type ~ on UK layout (no weird finger twists) - helps quicker to get to your home directory when navigating terminal.

Second, I use cmd+1/2/3 to switch tabs a lot. Cmd + ` rotates windows. You can imagine it's very easy to mix up 1 with ` and instead of having the tab you want, end up with completely different window. Really breaks my flow often.

I do not mind enter key that much. In fact I think US one is better.

> helps quicker to get to your home directory when navigating terminal.

Protip: "cd" with no arguments normally takes you to your home directory. Though if you need to reference something in your homedir using a global path without changing directories, ~ is probably still the fastest way to do it.

> I walked in to a US Apple store

Also, only about 20 countries have Apple stores, so that's also limited.

There is (currently) a two-year EU-mandated warranty, Apple was even taken to court for not emphasizing this enough when selling AppleCare.

They fixed the logic board of my 3 year old Macbook Pro. They quibbled at first, but agreed to do it free of charge after I quoted the EU legislation.

I'm confused, you quoted the 2-year support requirement and they then fixed your 3-year old laptop?

It is possible that it could be three years old but they had purchased it new and owned it less than 2 years. Just means that particular one sat in inventory for awhile.

The legislation doesn't have a fixed period, it provides a vague 'reasonable use for a reasonable period of time' type clause. This was a £1700 laptop, so I had a right to expect it to last longer than 3 years, which was supported by claims on Apple's website.

Therefore, Apple either has to say "our laptops are only good for three years", or say that particular laptop was defective and fix it.

> The [EU] legislation doesn't have a fixed period.

Sure does: 2 years. http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guar...

You are right! It's the UK implementation of the law that's more fuzzy.

The uk implementation is 4/5 years depending on your region.

Some countries, including the UK, have longer requirements in national law.

Do you know since when it's two-years? Apple's warranty has been (still is?) only one year in Germany IIRC.

For a long time. Note that there is a difference between the manufacturer's warranty (voluntary) and the seller's warranty (two years mandatory, "Gewährleistung" in German). When Apple talks about their warranty they mean the former.

They even have a page outlining the difference: https://www.apple.com/de/legal/statutory-warranty/

"For further information please contact the seller"

It is kind of cheeky, since in most cases for Apple products, the seller is also Apple.

Relevant: https://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guar...

I still don't understand how these make sense together...

It is perfectly clear to me, in the very link you have posted:

"This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right. National rules in your country may give you extra protection: however, any deviation from EU rules must always be in the consumer's best interest." (which is the case of UK law).

From your reply I understand you didn't notice the second link, probably due to my bad formatting. Compare your analysis of the first link with what Apple states in the second. I don't understand how they can say it.

I saw the link, but I thought your issue was with the 2/6 year thing.

I still don't see any problem. Apple states that you get 1 year of "Apple" warranty, which allows you to get your product serviced by Apple, at no cost, independently of where you bought it.

Beyond that date UK law will apply, but since it applies to the seller, and not the manufacturer, they say to contact the seller (as I said in another post, a bit cheekily, since they will be also the seller in many cases).

Unless of course you buy Apple Care, that will allow the same level of service as the 1 year warranty...

Notice that this only applies to B2C transactions. Company-bought products do not have that protection.

Detail worth knowing: under the EU warranty the first year is covered by the manufacturer, the second by the reseller. If you buy a MacBook outside an Apple Store, after the first year you're supposed to bring it back to the place you bought it. There is even a difference between ordering it online through apple.com and buying it at the brick and mortar Apple Store as those are legally not the same. In practice though I have never had a problem having it fixed on the spot at an Apple Store but this is mostly because Apple cares about their customers.

plain wrong. there is a 2-year warranty within 6 months the seller needs to actually prove that it worked correct. after that you (buyer) need to prove it. there is __never__ a warranty (under law, the manufacturer can make a special guarantee like apple care of course) between the manufacturer and the buyer (at least in the eu and might change if seller == manufacturer) the warranty is always between the _seller_ and the _buyer_. if the seller is something like amazon than you give your defective product back to amazon (amazon than of course has the same warranty between his seller/manufacturer). b2b is the same (but also has some special rules and might be (more) country dependant).

( Source: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guar... German EU LAW: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/DE/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX... (99/44/EG) )

Edit: Well the most important fact of course is that there is no "eu law" there are just policies that the countries than can enforce/make a law out of it (http://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/overview-law...) well european can than make claims against the country, but sometimes they even fail to do that.

Of course there can be a manufacturer warranty, there just isn't a legal requirement for one (and it can have rules like "talk to the dealer if you bought it recently, we cover you only when you can't go through them anymore")

Precisely. Most of the time electronic device manufacturers set the commercial warranty[1] to one year, but that's purely their prerogative. That's why you can go the Apple Store with your MacBook during the first year[2] even if you bought it from FNAC or Amazon or whatever. Apple Care extends that duration to three years, and possibly sets additional coverage terms like with Apple Care +.

On top of that, as merb said, following the EU directive, local law (in France, that's the Hamon bill) says the legal warranty of compliance[0] covers for the whole two years. So Apple can tell me to buzz off past the first year if I bought their hardware from Amazon, but so that I can go through them directly instead of going the roundabout way through the seller during the first year. The seller can never tell you to buzz of (as long as you duly prove the defect past 6 months as merb said), even during the time a possible commercial warranty applies, but it can be more efficient to go through the manufacturer directly, as is the case with Apple Stores, but I've been using this for other brands where the wait list was months long through the seller whereas the manufacturer fixed it in less than a week and even footed the bill for the postage.

[0]: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11094

[1]: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11093

[2]: https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/mac-french.htm...

EU directives are in practice no different to national law. Sure, countries can refuse to enforce them but they can refuse to enforce their national law as well. If we are at that stage all bets are off. "Can enforce" sounds like this is optional which it is really not. Courts refer to EU law just like they do to national law.

> "Can enforce" sounds like this is optional which it is really not. Courts refer to EU law just like they do to national law.

In practice it's a mess system. Courts choose and pick however they want to implement the directives, even in countries where courts should be independent the ruling political countries have enough pressure on the courts. Sometimes they even enforce invalidated directives which is unlawful but then again if a country has enough money they could just pay the fines. Therefore there is so much unhappiness about the EU in the general populace, local politicians blame the EU laws, EU politicians blame the local laws and no one is accountable, it really sucks and isn't what a democracy is supposed to be.

Many EU countries have protections stronger than this. Eg after 2 years you might have a right to compensation proportional to expected product life.

> If you buy an Apple laptop, and need a repair, they'll fix it if it's in warranty, regardless of where you are.

The reason I wrote that is because I've purchased multiple MacBook Airs in the US and Apple UK has always serviced them. Obviously your experiences are different.

Counter experience (but it was 2009). I bought a used white macbook from craigslist in 2008. I'm from the US, and live in the US.

Was traveling in UK, and laptop keyboard cracked - big hole in the side of the keyboard. Took it to Apple store in London - forget which one - replaced at no cost in about 3 hours.

EDIT: per goatforce5's comment, I had a bit of 'umm' and 'ahh' when I was in London. I thought it would be "out of warranty", but it was the same thing - "not sure we have any parts to fit the US keyboard". They did find one, but that was the potential hold up.

> Was traveling in UK, and laptop keyboard cracked - big hole in the side of the keyboard. Took it to Apple store in London - forget which one - replaced at no cost in about 3 hours.

Same thing happened to me (white Macbook, cracks on the keyboard). AFAIK it is a known defect from this series and Apple accredited repair shops were instructed to replace the keyboard for free no matter if the warranty was still valid or not.

It's still a good thing though, I know no other brand that would do that for free 4 years after the warranty expired (in my case).

Brick means the power adapter?

I've gotten 4 or 5 replacements, for free. I always have spares (instead of carrying them with me). So always claim "Dude, weird, I just bought this a few months ago."

Given the past drama, I think Apple just swaps them, to avoid any further bad PR.

And, frankly, these adapters should last forever. For comparison, I don't think I've ever replaced an HP or Dell adapter.

I never replaced those either, but HP adapter did melt the plastic cover on one of my laptops and I started to see the naked wiring (on the DC side). I bandaged it with some tape.

Pre MagSafe I used to see a lot of Apple laptops with gaping holes around the power adaptor from various accidents. RIP MagSafe.

> in this particular case it was even more interesting to realise how much better help I got from a non-official store.

I don't think that's an outlier. In my experience, going to an Apple Store is always more frustrating, time-consuming, and expensive (if you are buying upgrades) than going to an authorised reseller.

So, how does the reverse work? If I buy a laptop in UK with 1 year, can I go to Portugal and get service between year 1 and year 2 because they offer 2 year warranty? There may be a chance I suppose...?

Good to know. I'm about to buy an MBA in Portugal.

IIRC, there's an authorized retailer in Lisbon (Chiado). Warranty-wise, I wonder how buying one there factors in vs. getting one from anywhere that sells them new (like FNAC).

In the UK it's 5 years, so even then.

Same thing in Norway.

Mobile phones also have a 5 year warranty here as you "should expect them to last this long" according to a court ruling.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com