Proprietary operating systems work against your interests. Stop using them.
Proprietary operating systems work against your interests. Stop using them.
It boils down to "it works for me, and if it doesn't work for you because of X, Y and Z, then you should just stop doing that".
You can judge for yourself just how persuasive this argument really is by looking at desktop Linux market share over the past 20 years.
I say this as an avid Windows 10 user. IMHO there's still a usability gap (which is why I'm on Windows), but it's narrowing. GP's argument has a lot more merit now than it did 15 years ago.
Developers don't develop for it since the user base isn't large enough, and people don't switch to it because app support is severely lacking. How good the raw OS is doesn't matter that much when the apps aren't up to par.
Your Wine comment illustrates my point - while Wine is an awesome project - even apps running perfectly through it feel like they're running on Windows 2000. That's fine if you just care about the functionality of the app, but not if you care about the user experience.
I agree that things have improved since then... but with hardware, for example, it's very much a moving target. Your chances of running Linux on a random new PC bought off the shelf, or assembled from off the shelf components, and having all the hardware fully supported without mucking around with firmware, kernels, configs etc, are still low enough that hardware shopping needs to be done specifically with Linux hardware compatibility in mind, checking lists for what works on what distros etc. And I'm not talking about exotic stuff here, but basic things like WiFi.
Steam works great, and LibreOffice has been good enough to get the job done. I run Google Earth Pro and Sketchup in Wine, even World of Warcraft runs quite well in Wine.
I had a ton of issues with Wine until I found PlayOnLinux. Things still don't quite 'just work' -- but I've been able to use way more than I could before I found it.
KSP and WoW are my two big games, and they both work fine.
KSP and Rimworld are my two big games, at least KSP will be again when I get a replacement video card.
I haven't played Rimworld yet. Might have to go check it out.
I've found TerraTech recently but I've had about as much fun as I can have with it until they fix some more things.
Stop using the operating system where everything works: apps, games, hardware, good office package, etc.; rather use an operating system on which debugging to a layman translates to a plane of hell itself, where your hardware may or may not work, and half your game library certainly won't.
I would happily switch to Linux permanently the day the flagship office package UI doesn't resemble Office 97 (the ribbon UI is absolutely fantastic in MS Office), I can get all of my games to work, and I don't need to recompile a kernel to get something as basic as a graphics driver running.
It's being worked on: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/02/how-to-enable-libreoffice...
> I can get all of my games to work
Many games don't port to Linux until all users have switched. It's a chicken-egg problem :(
> I don't need to recompile a kernel to get something as basic as a graphics driver running.
You already don't need to do that. Intel and AMD's open-source drivers are included in the kernel and nVidia's driver can be installed without recompiling the kernel.
Also many games require nVidia drivers or AMD's open source driver (e.g. Life is strange). I'm using a 144 Hz monitor and therefore need touse AMDGPU Pro (AMDGPU has a bug with >120 Hz: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93826 ).
But you're right: It's getting better :) For example Rocket League and Dota 2 work great.
The problem is steadily getting better in some areas, but there are still thousands of specialist applications in service today that only run on Windows. If you are lucky, there may also be Mac versions.
The reality is that it's often not feasible to only run FOSS, and nothing but FOSS.
Sponsoring getting a vertical market app working 100% in Wine is unlikely to be cheaper than cleaning up after WannaCry's competently-written successors.
I meant, of course, unlikely to be more expensive. Gah!
True. Support has gotten significantly better. It's not perfect, and the failure cases are much worse than Windows (and somewhat worse than OS X), but it's gotten better.
> you should not buy hardware that is incompatible with the operating system you plan to use
This is where you start going off the rails.
People did buy hardware that was compatible with the operating system they do use. It is super presumptuous and weird to try this sleight-of-hand in your argument.
> LibreOffice supports the formats and works great
You are now off the rails and airborne.
Nontrivial Excel spreadsheets break in LibreOffice Calc on the regular and it's significantly slower (!) than Excel besides; anything using VBA, which is still a pretty big chunk of serious Office users especially in enterprises, is a nonstarter for obvious reasons. The UI is also, IMO, a huge step backwards from Office and now that the Ribbon "but but it's different" is far enough in the past that pretty much everybody has switched, another UI switch is probably not worth it.
> with Steam and Wine combined your potential gaming library is HUGE
Sailing through the air with the mountain approaching.
Your potential gaming library is huge--and either indie (which is fine, but limited) or largely broken. Suggesting WINE to somebody who doesn't already know what they're in for is dirty; even gold-flagged games in WINE that aren't a decade old are often broken in ways your average mortal can't fix. If you enjoy being elbow-deep in a computer, this may be fine for you. Most people aren't. Your preaching ignores this. It shouldn't.
> Proprietary operating systems work against your interests. Stop using them.
You've hit the cliffside. There are no survivors.
People will stop using them when open-source ones are good at the things they want. Right now, they're still not, and exhorting people to use an inferior good (for the things they care about) is kinda just doing people dirty.
Don't get me wrong: I would like Linux and other open-source operating systems to be better desktop OSes for normal people (and some of my own projects are intended to help facilitate that) but still, in 2017, it is a raw effing deal for the majority of people to switch to it. This should change. I know you work on stuff to make that happen, and that's awesome. But it's still not something I think can be recommended in good conscience to most folks, even around here.
It barely works for me, and I've been using it on the desktop for fifteen years and have grown accustomed to the need to cultivate tragically low expectations around the whole stack.
Make new purchases more intelligently.
>You are now off the rails and airborne. Excel is still largely unsupported and breaks nontrivial spreadsheets. The UI is also, IMO, a huge step backwards from Office and now that the Ribbon "but but it's different" is far enough in the past that pretty much everybody has switched, another UI switch is probably not worth it.
Which is why I mentioned MS Office in Wine.
>Still sailing through the air with the mountain approaching. Your potential gaming library is huge--and either indie or largely broken. Suggesting WINE to somebody who doesn't already know what they're in for is dirty; even gold-flagged games in WINE don't work particularly well a whole lot.
I suggested it to the HN crowd, who I expect to have a higher bar of troubleshooting capability.
>People will stop using them when open-source ones are good at the things they want. Right now, they're still not, and exhorting people to use an inferior good (for the things they care about) is kinda just doing people dirty.
You and people like you are the reason that it's not as good as it could be. I use Linux as my daily driver and it works extremely well. But if you continue to let it languish with a small market share because you can't be bothered to troubleshoot it for 10 minutes or maybe live without that piece of software you need so much, then it won't even go anywhere. Yours is a self defeating attitude.
If you don't have a positive argument for using your thing instead of framing its competition negatively, few people will ever use it. The Linux desktop as a whole doesn't have that positive argument. Because, for most people and including most developers, it is a strictly inferior good. Not to Windows--but to the Mac. You're stomping your feet about people not being bothered to troubleshoot--it ain't their fault that that's still a tire fire! I use a Linux desktop because I know what I'm getting into and I know enough, from the aforementioned fifteen years of dealing with its crap, to make it mostly tolerable for work (not at all for fun, which is why I still use Windows, too!). I sure wouldn't start today, not on either the handwavy "but but telemetry!" grounds nor the usefulness of it.
And I'll raise this point again:
>You and people like you are the reason that it's not as good as it could be. I use Linux as my daily driver and it works extremely well. But if you continue to let it languish with a small market share because you can't be bothered to troubleshoot it for 10 minutes or maybe live without that piece of software you need so much, then it won't even go anywhere. Yours is a self defeating attitude.
Using proprietary operating systems because Linux isn't there yet is a great way to keep Linux from getting there. It's a chicken and egg problem. What would you prefer: getting your privacy thourougly invaded by a proprietary operating system, or being there to help Linux gain market share and tip the scales? Even if it's not perfect, it's more than enough, and supporting it is the best choice.
I tried really hard to make it work. If it only took 10 minutes of troubleshooting, then it would have been fine, but it was instead hours of crawling through forums.
Ultimately, this is a theory of mind issue, since proficient users and developers can't quite seem to grasp how regular joes use the software. Or if they do grasp it, they react with contempt instead of trying to fix the issue. Without making it REALLY convenient there is simply no way it will gain more than a small market share. Whether the contempt is justified is irrelevant if the goal is to have the Year of the Linux Desktop.
The vast majority of people out there see computers (and other devices) as things that get stuff done, right now. They couldn't care less about proprietary vs open source, and the philosophy and the politics of the latter.
So there will never be a critical mass that will tip the scales, ever. You'll get the geeks going there because they care, trying to live with the inconveniences for a while, and then mostly going back to OS X (or even Windows), because they find other things to care about, and stop feeling like struggling with xorg.conf or NetworkManager or whatever is meaningfully "fighting against the system".
First and foremost, I need my systems to just WORK. When I sit down to code, the last thing I want to do is debug why it is not properly displaying on all of my monitors.
In other words, I know no current OS which doesn't suck :((( Win7 held some promise, as did OS X, and current Linuxes hold some still; but alas, we're still not in plug-and-play land after many decades of effort.
But even if you have issues with Windows, I have zero doubt you would spend more time batteling with Linux. It just doesn't have polish or UX as a primary target. It is wonderful for servers, but as a desktop it is a broken experience unless you value tinkering with it.
Where did that "monitors" issue come in, no idea - typing this on Kubuntu with 3 different displays, also no issues (except for my prankster colleagues unscrewing the video cable).
As someone above noted, I don't care about the OS. I care about the work I do on it - and I have the same Jetbrains tools, the same Firefox, the same Chrome, etc etc etc. Whether the title bar is polished, transparent and the exactly right shade of unmagenta, I don't care.
To me, and without exception, every single person I talk with about this, have less issues with Windows or OSX, than Linux. This is primarily CS majors that are required to run it to get their degree.
Yeah, I have heard that one before.
At work, I am a sysadmin/helpdesk monkey taking care of a network of ~80 users and a dozen servers, all on Windows, and let me tell you: Windows has its fair share of weird problems, inexplicable failures, stuff that "worked yesterday"...
Windows may "just work" often enough, but unlike Linux, it also "just stops working" so often, it's just not funny any more. On Linux, once one has it working, at least it keeps working.
My point is that they're simply not sufficient to tip the scales. Even if every single HN reader did what you demand they do, it would not tip the scales.
Once you realize that, this whole notion of "fighting the man" by struggling with config files and broken hardware support rather loses its edge.
This is fine. This is great. Everyone should waste their time with this.
Or not.
Since you used KDE as an example, maybe you switched too soon. A lot of people did. The recent Plasma 5 release was exactly like the KDE 4 release - it took a good 5 - 6 major releases before stability and feature parity with the predecessor were reached. But if you switched from KDE 3 to 4.5, or from 4 to 5.6, the new desktop worked fine. Were on Plasma 5.9 now and its boring. In a good way. It is stable, it works, the features are great, the looks are excellent, it gets out of my way and I can get work done on it very well.
Linux is boring. And thats a good thing. I can easily buy a system76 / Dell computer that runs Ubuntu, install whatever I want on it, and have a crisp experience without issue now, unless I go looking for trouble on the bleeding edge of hardware or software.
How about being much easier to keep up to date for the average user? A single tool updates everything and doesn't leave a million bundled copies of various low level libraries in every app that uses them. It's much easier for a normal person (or advanced user) to keep a linux system patched. Keeping your OS and applications takes a lot of effort on windows.
Another is that it comes with a lot more great tools out of the box than windows, users don't have to navigate the web trying to find software or rely on OEM crapware.
UI wise it provides a much more consistent experience and it stays out of your way a lot better (no focus stealing shit everywhere).
Funny, because this is exactly how I would describe windows 10.
Anyway!
> If you don't have a positive argument for using your thing instead of framing its competition negatively, few people will ever use it.
There are plenty of positive arguments. They have been repeated over and over so I won't do it again.
> It's not a good experience. It's bad.
> Because, for most people and including most developers, it is a strictly inferior good.
Citations needed. Because this seems purely your subjective opinion. I'm sure many people will share it with you, but that definitely isn't my experience and many will share my opinion too.
For very small values of "works". I've found that even high school projects turn out to be a bit too much for libre office.
Regarding wine, no need for that now that Office online and Google docs exists.
This is evidence you've never used Google Docs for real work and have never encountered its absolutely dismal docx rendering. I get stuff in Gmail regularly I then have to open in LibreOffice to bloody read.
If I send an ODF to my lawyer, investor or accountant they're going to panic.
Filing you into the "change resistant and lying to themselves" category of Windows user, too.
Only 2013 or older which you can't easily buy anymore. 2016 / 365 doesn't work at all: https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iI...
Maybe that's why Microsoft is pushing hard to move everybody to an online office subscription?
Excel teach bad habit about having list every where not maintained.
My theory is that Excel's userbase includes the guys who actually sign the cheques, so MS has to get it right.
Due to lack of other tools, people learned to do absolutely crazy things with the Office - from saving screenshots in the Word files to drawing in PowerPoint.
But on the other hand LO has Base, which is pretty good.
This is now a bad excuse, not a reason.