are you nuts? its about 10x harder to use than c#, and twice as hard to debug.
I've come to the conclusion that its just better to write a small c# app than try and use powershell
I've come to the conclusion that its just better to write a small c# app than try and use powershell
Similarly, we're trying to make some improvements to debugging right now with PowerShell 6.0 [1] (the one that's cross-plat and built on .NET Core), and I'm very interested in hearing your feedback on how we can do a better job there.
Even if it's "fix your docs" or "too hard to learn", that's great info, especially coming from a C# guru.
[1]: https://github.com/powershell/powershell/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%...
It doesn't seem that I can currently debug scripts that are contained in a module folder, but not directly the script being called.
If I have a module file that looks like this:
Get-ChildItem -Path $PSScriptRoot\.ps1 | ForEach-Object{ .$_.FullName } # source the script files Export-ModuleMember -function -* # export those sourced scripts
I am not sure how it works exactly, but if I am writing a new cmdlet, Get-HackerNews.ps1, the breakpoints aren't hit in ISE. It would be super cool if it did.
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Also is there guidance on module structure? Right now it looks like the docs indicate that all the cmdlets should be placed in the .psm1 file, but to me that sounds like it would get rather unmaintainable very quickly. Just looking at the one my dev team has created, we have nearly 50 exported functions. Maybe our our module could be broken up, but that would still leave us ~10 cmdlets per module.
In 2007 I joined the powershell enthusiasts excited by the notion of a bash-like capability treating .NET constructs as a first-class citizen. I invested time into learning common use cases. Certain things you would THINK would be easy like loading a DLL as well as it's corresponding config file were actually quite difficult in practice which was a shame because the primary vision for powershell was to be flexible glue between compiled assemblies. Have you ever tried to invoke ms-test with powershell on a DLL which has a config xml?
I had a touch-and-go relationship with poweshell. I returned to use it a few years later to find that many of my powershell V1 scripts were obseleted by the powershell V2 runtime. Writing C#/.NET code to execute on many versions of windows this is rarely an issue. Writing powershell code to execute on many versions of windows you have a serious problem on your hands as the commands syntax and general practices vary significantly between versions.
To this day googling for examples on how to accomplish something basic such as running a dos command line call with parameters constructed within powershell is not only highly vexing for the occasional casual user such as myself but many of the answers I see in blogs or stackoverflow are completely temporal and you need to be careful to look for results dating around 2013 for powershell v2 because anything before that wont work, but not too new because v4 has a new approach and that would require a service pack not all my users can currently procure. Not to mention everyone writes powershell in a different style. You often end up with a handful of different code examples that look wildly different each with their own issues as well.
Sure there are expert powershell users out there with muscle memory that can write elegant solutions for version incompatibility issues and common gotchas, however for the casual seldom user the overall experience that too much frustration, less than intuitive approach and 10 ways to solve a common problem. It feels sort of like running perl in a dos prompt that is constantly changing. Compare this with zen of python where [There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.] I find myself installing python runtime and avoiding powershell when I'm required to make something of significant complexity and high compatibility.
If PowerShell could support this, it would allow fully automated cert replacement for those of us who use Let's Encrypt on Windows (ducks)
Compared to what cygwin’s bash does, it’s like an entirely different world.
- One which stops IIS app pools before a deployment (30 of them). I wanted to stop them all in parallel but found this far more difficult than executing a list of Tasks in c#. So I now just run c# console app to do it
- one which runs msdeploy commands against a web server and had many issues dealing with passing parameters down to msdeploy. I can't quite recall but I think it was either quotes or spaces related.
The ISE as it's called is very very basic. Not what I'd expect from MS. I'd like a full debugger.
There also seems to be a potential security risk of having editable text file scripts on a server Vs a compiled exe.
1) Powershell mingles "process stdout" and "function return" to be one and the same. While this kind of makes sense, unless I'm extremely fastidious about redirecting everything I call to $null, chances are I'm not returning what I expect to return. The end result is I shy away from doing anything that needs to return values (rather than output) in Powershell, which is kind of important for anything nontrivial. I tend to set globals like I've gone back to the Apple 2 and started programming in BASIC again as a result, which gets messy real quick. Processing stdout/stderr in C# is a little annoying by comparison, but easily fixed.
2) Syntax changes in updates. When I installed powershell tools for VS, my scripts broke - to fix them I had to replace e.g.:
info "$vmGuid: has BuildMatrix tags: $tags"
info "${vmGuid}: has BuildMatrix tags: $tags"
logCmd {& $VBM -- clonevm $OriginalVmGuid --register --name $NewCloneId}
logCmd {& $VBM -- modifyvm $NewCloneId --natpf1 "ssh,tcp,$SshHost,$SshPort,,22"}
logCmd {& $VBM -- startvm $NewCloneId --type headless}
waitUpTo 60 3 -Sensitive $true {& $VBM -- guestcontrol $NewCloneId run --exe "/bin/sh" --username "$Username" --password "$Password" -- '/bin/sh' -c "mkdir ~/.ssh; echo '$PubKey' >> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys"}
waitUpTo 60 3 {& $Ssh -- -o NoHostAuthenticationForLocalhost=yes -o ConnectTimeout=60 -o BatchMode=yes -p $SshPort $Username@$SshHost -- '/bin/sh' -c "echo Server ready" 2>&1}
logCmd {& $VBM clonevm $OriginalVmGuid --register --name $NewCloneId}
logCmd {& $VBM modifyvm $NewCloneId --natpf1 "ssh,tcp,$SshHost,$SshPort,,22"}
logCmd {& $VBM startvm $NewCloneId --type headless}
waitUpTo 60 3 -Sensitive $true {& $VBM guestcontrol $NewCloneId run --exe "/bin/sh" --username "$Username" --password "$Password" -- '/bin/sh' -c "mkdir ~/.ssh; echo '$PubKey' >> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys"}
waitUpTo 60 3 {& $Ssh -o NoHostAuthenticationForLocalhost=yes -o ConnectTimeout=60 -o BatchMode=yes -p $SshPort $Username@$SshHost -- '/bin/sh' -c "echo Server ready" 2>&1}
3) Default installs lag way behind - e.g. Windows 7 only comes with PowerShell 2 by default, so you don't even have things like Invoke-WebRequest, forcing you to write your own or get your IT department to install an updated version for everyone. C# just feels like it has more "batteries included" even for older .NET targets.
4) Figuring out exactly what types are expected vs what I happen to be using is a general muddle in Powershell for any sort of collection in my experience. C#'s static typing, clear errors, and intellisense in general is just extremely hard to beat.
* Referencing dependencies (if you're used to "add reference" and "using" it's awkward having to write a bunch of Assembly.Load that then needs to be maintained redundantly with the C#; it would be nice if PS could somehow work with VS/MSBuild projects)
* Calling extension methods (ties in with above since in C# they depend on "using")
* Calling generic methods
* Calling overloaded methods
* Calling async methods
There are workarounds for all the above but put together they definitely make PS less pleasant/useful for me.
Also, much of the above also applies to interop with WinRT which I think is becoming important (as much of the value of PS comes from good access to the underlying system, and more and more Windows functionality is being exposed through WinRT APIs).
The other problem I've had is performance - for example, PS could be useful for some of the same text processing tasks for which Bash is often used (and I'd prefer it for its stronger programming language/object system), but in my experience is dramatically and prohibitively slower when dealing with large amounts of text.
Try getting an experienced C# developer to write a PS function that:
- Initializes an IDisposable resource and deterministically disposes of it when the function terminates (successfully, with an error, or due to ctrl+C). - Honors the caller's $ErrorActionPreference/-ErrorAction. - Understands that catches won't catch "non-terminating" errors. - Throws errors without trashing the ErrorRecord so that the caller gets a meaningful stacktrace. - Copes with the difference between process working directory and PS working directory if a .NET method and a relative path are involved. - Doesn't blow up on a square bracket because someone didn't realize they needed -LiteralPath. - Doesn't accidentally write an unintended object to the pipeline. - Does something reasonable with pipeline input. - Doesn't get tripped up by type coercion magic - $a = @(); $a -eq $null - Uses multiple ParameterSets without creating ambiguity problems. - Doesn't get tripped up by PS silently swallowing exceptions thrown by property getters. - Uses some appropriate subset of language features and modules available across different versions of the OS and WMF. The OS based limitations are understandable. The hard dependencies that Microsoft's own products have on specific PS versions are not. - Is not super-slow.
It's not impossible, but it sure is hard (and takes a ton of boilerplate), and there aren't many resources out there to teach you how. It's all quick and dirty "how to do X" recipes for sysadmins that don't care about more than what they need to paste into a console.
To be clear, I actually mostly like PS I'm just trying to express a set of pain points here.
At this point I should also plug our tooling improvements. First, our VS Code Extension[2] is AWESOME, debugging there has massively improved, there's snippet support for boilerplate with best practices, it integrates directly with PSScriptAnalzyer, and even enables some "quick fix" of linter warnings. We've also got something called Plaster[3] that does templating to encourage best practices (think of it like a "Yeoman for PowerShell").
But yeah, as we craft new docs for writing the best "cross-CLR, cross-platform" (aka universal, aka portable) PowerShell modules, I want to make sure we tick all these boxes.
Oh, and we believe we addressed the whole "different singleton version on different versions of Windows/WMF" thing by making sure that PowerShell 6[4] is x-copyable, fully side-by-side, and supported downlevel to Windows 7/2008 R2 (though Win7 support is currently busted, we're working through fixing it). If you've got a workload or an application that depends on a new feature of PowerShell, you can include PowerShell 6 app-local, or you can distribute it to machines in an environment through either MSI or a ZIP-based file copy.
As for Microsoft products that support specific versions: again, I totally hear you. The best thing you can do is push on those products their respective feedback mechanisms (almost everything is on the Feedback Hub or some product-specific UserVoice now) to support all versions of PowerShell. In the meantime, the side-by-side nature of PowerShell 6 means you can install the latest version without fear that you'll void your support or break existing scripts/workloads.
[1] https://github.com/PowerShell/PSScriptAnalyzer
[2] https://github.com/PowerShell/vscode-powershell
But the worst thing I came across with Powershell is this. The fricking return semantics. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10286164/function-return-...
PowerShell isn't 10x harder to use than C#, how do I know that? Because many people use PowerShell regularly in their day to day jobs, and do so quite successfully. Most people who actually use PowerShell don't complain about how hard it is.
It is harder than C# to debug, probably more than twice as hard, actually. Does that make it impossible to program in? Hardly. There are tons of other languages that are roughly equally difficult to debug, especially many of the dynamic languages: PHP, Python, etc. People have been building things of tremendous value with hard to debug languages for ages. The fact that C# has such a good debugging story is great, but it's not the end-all be-all of a language. Also, PowerShell has some significantly advanced debugging tools compared to a lot of other dynamic languages.
I can say that every programming language that I grew to love, I liked almost immediately. The ones that make no sense from the get-go, I don't spend much time on.
Surely the second sentence is the reason for the first? If you don't give languages that make a bad first impression a second chance, then you have no idea whether you would have grown to love one of them. (Certainly you aren't obliged to find out, but to regard this as evidence that you wouldn't have liked them I think is reversing causality.)
The whole "I can run this script on 100 different machines at once super easy" is fine, but lets see you try to write some rigorous code in PS and the come back and tell me how it's easier than C#.
They both have their place.
When I took over it, I wrote a PS script to automate the whole build. The script contains a description of each library's dependencies, so it knows what order to build all the libraries in. Each library is built in its own "job" using Start-Job, so the builds are also maximally parallelized; the script is essentially a loop of two functions: `for each library -> if library's dependencies have all been built -> start parallel job to build library` and `for each job -> if the job has finished -> mark the library as built`.
I would not write it in C#. Most of the build steps for each library involve running other processes, so using a shell DSL rather than multiple Process.Start()+Process.WaitForExit() is convenient. Even things like copying files is more convenient using Copy-Item than C#, especially since the PS versions support globs.
I would hope a build tool counts as both rigorous code as well as justifies PS as a programming language.
Aside: The repository was forked by some other people who did not like / could not read PS, so they rewrote it in Python. The Python version is several times larger than the PS version, though to be fair to it it's also more generic and has more features. A lot of that verbosity though does come from the more verbose code for spawning processes from Python compared to PS.
Well, it puts Arnavion in good company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_build_automation_softw... .
and I should mention, I feel like that's a solved problem. I don't know the specifics of the project, but it's hard for me to buy that you needed to write dependency checker in PS.
Where does tcl fit into things for you?
I'm definitely using 'shell' and 'command' in a narrow sense. I meant to add contrast between PowerShell and C#, by calling one a command shell and the other a programming language. But both words have been used with much broader meanings. So I'll try to be a little more careful and say that what I'm really talking about is a system shell and system commands, where a system command means direct access to executable files on the system, and system shell means an interpreter that provides system commands.
Even though Tcl stands for 'command language', it's not talking about system commands using the same distinction I made above. Tcl's use of "command" is referring to programmer-defined functions & API, and it is not referring to system commands.
Tclsh is a shell, but I wouldn't call that a system shell like PowerShell or bash. It is an interactive tcl interpreter, but not really a system shell. Tclsh isn't something sysadmins would typically use, right?
Perhaps the defining characteristic of a system shell (as opposed to a programming language) is system commands; running executable files on the system can be done by typing the bare name of the file, without any other syntax in the way. That is true in powershell and bash, and not true in C#, tcl, python, etc. To run a system command in tcl, you have to use 'exec' or 'open', you have to use 'glob' to get file completion, and there's required programming language syntax frequently involved in passing arguments. In tcl you have to use $env(var) or $::env(var) to get an environment variable rather than $var. Those are the kinds of things that shells provide with little or no syntax, and exactly the kind of stuff that begins to compromise language syntax and language design in favor of promoting system commands to first class status.
BTW, you got me curious about tcl again. I never used it enough to get a sense of what it's best used for. What kinds of things would you use tcl for yourself? Do you like to use it for system shell tasks instead of bash? (I know there are certainly legit reasons to do that.) What kinds of programs would you start in tcl?
they definitely should have gone with some variation of C#.
There are crossover points (varying by person) where a scripting language is preferable to a shell, and where a strongly-typed language is preferable to a dynamically-typed language.