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> if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem

Well, Colorado tried that. Recreational weed has been fully legal in Colorado since January 1, 2014. You can walk down any major street in Denver or Boulder and pass multiple outlets selling marijuana. And they've sold lots of it, according to the tax receipts raised.

The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped for.

In 2015, opioid overdoses in Colorado continued to increase at the same rate as prior to legalization of marijuana. That year, opioid overdoses killed more Coloradans than homicide. [0]

In 2016, the total number of opioid deaths dropped 6%, but the number of heroin overdoses continued to increase. [1]

Personal experience in Portland Oregon suggests that in that city, legal marijuana has not made a dent in the meth and heroin issues that are still affecting the city.

Maybe recreational marijuana laws have helped. Nothing in this data can disprove that maybe more people would have died without it. But it hasn't been a magic bullet. It hasn't yet gone "a long way to" solving the problem of heroin overuse.

[FWIW, I'm in favor of recreational marijuana legalization, but the problems of heroin have different roots and we can't expect legal marijuana to immediately solve those issues.]

[0] http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/03/colorado-opioid-heroin-...

[1] http://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/07/colorado-opioid-heroin-...

It will be interesting to see if this eventually puts a dent in the number of new opioid addictions - but that is a very different thing than addressing current addictions and/or transference from prescriptions to street drugs.

I suspect it will be about a decade before any really good analysis can be done on that aspect.

I wouldn't take issue with your overall point, but the headline in your second link contradicts the article:

As prescription opioid deaths drop 6 percent in Colorado, heroin deaths rise 23 percent

vs.

Overall, the total number of opiate deaths — meaning deaths from both prescription painkillers like fentanyl or from illegal opiates like heroin — fell by about 6 percent, from 472 deaths in 2015 to 442 deaths in 2016.

Also, as an aside, heroin and opioids aren't not automatically fatal so that number is a subset of users. An important number is not just deaths but also hospital visits and new users are important.

Intuitively, this makes sense. Anyone buying heroin/meth/whatever would've likely also been exposed to the option of buying marijuana just as easily among those alternatives when it was still completely illegal. If marijuana was a viable alternative for their drug of choice, I imagine they would've just stuck with that regardless of legalization, since it's cheaper and safer.

Hence I wouldn't really expect legalization of any drug X to improve problems with any drug Y in most cases. But if legalization itself helps with drug problems in general, I might expect that only legalizing drug Y would help drug Y's problems.

> The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped for.

I didn't say "sudden". I think it would take time.

Addiction doesn't happen overnight. I am open minded and I am not going to ignore research if the research doesn't support my view. But my hunch is, it is too soon or too much damage has already been done and we need to take other steps to reduce usage not just legalization.

Incidentally I thought I saw some research that showed the opposite effect but I can't find the link right now... I'll take a look for it later and see if I can find it.

When ANYTHING is used to escape from emotional pain be it heroin, pot or food it is wrong and causes problems.

> the sudden reversal of opioid addiction

I don't think anyone (even the parent commentor) thinks that would happen. At best, I think we can only hope for prevention, and even that will require a lengthy period reeducation and destigmatization. Speaking from experience, it's nearly impossible to truly reverse opioid addiction. Preventing that addiction in the first place by utilizing other non-or-less-addictive pain control methods, such as marijuana, is our only hope.

Is there an easy way to collect and cross reference opioid deaths in non-prohibitive states? You seem familiar with the problem and the data - is Colorado's rate of overdose increase proportional to that of places like West Virginia, for instance?

> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids

No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all.

If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be getting opiods for this anyway.

Part of the problem IMO based on speaking to various people from various countries, the US is just far too happy to prescribe strong medication (generalisation I know but still) whereas for the same ailments in other countries you would get nothing. Whether this is do to the profitization of the US health care system, or whether when you are paying as much as people in the US are you want to feel like you are getting something in return. To be told, do a few stretches, take a parecetamol (tylenol?) may not seem like good value for money, even if it is the better advice (I have seen similar behaviour in some other countries where health care if more privatised)

A friend of mine gave her mother a lot of edibles that she made from marijuana she grew when she was suffering through cancer and in a lot of pain. Apparently she was happy until she passed. She had tried chemo at one point and had been miserable of course.

My grandma has arthritis and a lot of back pain and the doctor gave her morphine. I doubt anything is better than that but it does seem overly excessive, although stretches and tylenol as you suggest is definitely too weak for her.

I think there's a really nice place for marijuana as a pain medication.

You're absolutely right! Marijuana has a very useful place as one tool among many for palliative care.

I believe parent may be suggesting that marijuana should not be regarded as a universal substitute for any and all use palliative uses of opiates.

>Part of the problem IMO based on speaking to various people from various countries, the US is just far too happy to prescribe strong medication (generalisation I know but still) whereas for the same ailments in other countries you would get nothing.

I noticed this when I got my wisdom teeth taken out in Japan. Typically in America, they knock you out and remove all four at once and give you powerful drugs after the procedure to help with the pain. When I got the procedure done in Japan I was originally scheduled to have four separate procedures, until I complained and even then it was moved down to two, one for each side of my mouth. The anesthesia was local and the drugs I got were extremely light. I was definitely in pain way longer than friends who got the procedure, but it was bearable and ultimately I think I'm better off for not being described a hard opioid.

I did it in the USA and it was all local anesthesia. I had a hard time even finding someone who would offer general anethesia.

>> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids

> No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all.

Anecdotal evidence from working at cannabis dispensaries (and possibly some studies I've seen, but I'm not going to look 'em up.) suggest while you won't get off opiates for serious chronic pain, if you consume (usually edible) cannabis and opiates your dosage of the opiates can come down significantly and lead to better quality of life.

I got vicodin for headaches once (not even bad headaches, just regular headaches), so it depends what kind of pain you're talking about.

I've Psoriasis and Psoriatic Arthritis in my late 20's. Anecdotally I can say I never believed the hype about the effect of marijuana use on inflammation. After going straight in the past 30 days (job hunting), I can say I thoroughly miss not itching over my entire body 24/7 and not feeling fire in my hands. To quantify I have decided to only pursue jobs in legalized jurisdictions.

> ... between 1999 and 2010, states that permitted medical marijuana had an average of almost 25 percent fewer opioid overdose deaths each year than states where cannabis remained illegal.

Source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/could-medical-can...

It could just be that states with bigger opiate problems are less likely to ease restrictions on marijuana.

> 1. [Marijuana] is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids

This is key. Prescription pain killers are the gateway drug to heroin, not marijuana. Many normal, working class people become unexpectedly addicted to opioids by using medications exactly as prescribed. Rush Limbaugh is probably the most high-profile example of this. The tighter rules on opioid prescriptions might have some effect, but it will likely take FDA approval of marijuana for this to be reversed.

> 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more likely to say "screw it" and try a harder drug....

Somewhat agree here, but I don't think they try heroin because they're already doing weed. They do it because life is shit and heroin is a hell of an escape. When life is that bad it's really hard to see the downside to using hard drugs.

There are also some people that use heroin because of psychological issues or social pressure, but I think easy access to weed would reduce that as well.

I am pretty much with you. To add,

1. As far as I know, it doesn't actually kill pain, people just report that they no longer are bothered by the pain, or able to ignore it and still function. Which is probably better.

2. Fairly sure its not addictive at all in the pharmaceutical sense, and quite positive it can be in the way say World of Warcraft or other entertainment can be.

3. I actually buy the "gateway theory", but only because of this.

Opposition seems to be the result of habit and years of ascribing negative virtue to recreational drug use (probably discounting alcohol cause cognitive dissonance).

1. How can one still function if you don't care about most basic emotions like pain? Trickquestion, one can't.

I agree that cannabis legalization could help public health addiction problems.

One idea that I don't see brought up a lot is using cannabis in a rehab setting; basically trying to get people to replace one mind-altering substance with another. I don't think that should necessarily be a permanent solution but it seems more realistic than asking someone to go from doing drugs every day to being stone cold sober at all times. Cannabis could take the edge off and provide the mind altering feeling that some addicts seem to crave. [1]

In all fairness I'm sure there are failures in this idea but I think it's worth exploring once we accept that cannabis is just nowhere near hard drugs on the harm spectrum.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/teens-dru...

Pot would alleviate much of the heroin problem but with great advantages comes equal disadvantages. I suspect we will see these issues soon.

Point number two: Marijuana is addictive and individuals with marijuana addiction entering voluntary rehab is increasing:(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797098/)

Theory: The reason one does not get physical withdraws is that it is oil based, stored in the fat and slowly dissipates in about 2-weeks or so whereas heroin is water soluble and leaves the body within 24-hours...

   equal disadvantages

Are you suggesting negative effects of marijuana usage are comparable to that of opioids? That really doesn't match any of the research I know of.

Cannabis addiction (and I agree it exists) is not in the same league as opioid addiction.

Heavy smokers may feel different when stopping, may have a few sleepless nights due to dreams returning, may be irritable, feel bored, but it is not at all comparable to those coming off a heavy opioid addiction.

There is no equal disadvantage. If all heroin addicts were to magically over night turn into cannabis addicts and no longer be heroin addicts there will be many advantages and next to no disadvantages. Crime will go down. They will become employable, they will be able to lead "normal" lives. Disadvantages? I am not really thinking of any, let alone any that are equal

Marijuana absolutely can and does cause far more significant withdrawal than just a few sleepless nights. Under certain circumstances, the withdrawal can persist for much, much longer.

It's irresponsible to assume that marijuana is harmless and non-addictive or only mildly addictive, and too easy to justify as being benign, when juxtaposed wth the withdrawal process of harder drugs.

Not really, marijuana withdrawals are fairly tame and many people don't even experiences those. At most, a couple of weeks of irritability, appetite issues, and problems sleeping.

The psychological "withdrawal" can be much worse, but there is a whole range of regular things that can lead to those addictions. And it is often abused to hide other mental health issues, which can flare up while quitting.

You moved the goalposts. My response was to the claim of a "few" sleepless nights, which is far from the truth for the majority of long term regular users who quit. Instead, you said that there are, "at most, a couple weeks of" mild symptoms. This is simply not representative of the withdrawal scenario for long term heavy usage, both in duration and intensity.

I've seen first hand mentally stable folks who quit smoking marijuana after full time use for a number of decades. The withdrawal symptoms in these folks were far from mild, and lasted more than "at most a couple of weeks". Long term insomnia alone is a serious risk factor, due to their dependence on marijuana to maintain a regular sleep schedule.

While your generalization that marijuana withdrawal is tame may be true in many cases, particularly for light or short term use, it is false for long term daily users.

I moved the goalposts to "what our scientific research has found," not to some anecdotal evidence of a particularly bad psychological withdrawal someone you know had. That wasn't the drug's fault, and your friend could have done many innocuous tasks before sleep and had the same problems quitting.

The study you pointed to for point number two are ten years old and predate pot being legal in any states at the recreational level.

Additionally those stats are often considered to be enormously skewed as one of the primary ways you can avoid a drug charge in some places is to "voluntarily" enter rehab for it. So while it looks like pot addiction is up, it is really that pot arrests are up.

This would also explain why in the study minorities seem to have a higher rate of "addiction", as they're more than twice as likely to be arrested for minor drug charges and thus more likely to be put in this situation.

> Point number two: Marijuana is addictive and individuals with marijuana addiction entering voluntary rehab is increasing:(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797098/)

Most people entering voluntary rehab do so under duress. Specifically, they are doing so as part of a plea bargain, to avoid serving prison time for a drug charge.

> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that.

If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it?

(fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)

> If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it?

Not OP, but I think this means that it isn't a mainstream enough idea to get traction, and that it might be political suicide for an elected official to suggest it, not that society is ill-equipped to handle it if it did happen.

I share this position. I think it's a good idea to legalize most drugs, but I think actively working toward legalizing drugs other than marijuana today would not get much in the way of results.

Thank you, yes this is exactly what I meant.

>>why are you for it? Because there is no other solution. None.

The drug war has been a complete and utter failure from the viewpoint of society (those who have profited may disagree, but I hope we can agree their views can be ignored). IT has ruined lives, brought misery and suffering to many, all but destroyed some countries, helped wars continue long after they would have otherwise, unfairly targeted minorities.

And for what gains? None, absolutely nothing. Drugs are cheaper, purer and more available than ever. That is all the billions if not trillions of $ has achieved.

Ending the War on Drugs is not the same thing as legalizing all drugs. There are ways to fight addiction to things like methamphetamines and heroin without declaring all victims as the enemy.

We should absolutely change how we deal with drugs and addition, but I'm not convinced that straight legalizing things like meth is the right approach, either.

Can't speak for OP, but in a more general sense, society as a whole will never be ready for some things that some individuals are for. That's why we (America) are a nation of laws, not of man. There will always be someone who doesn't like you, or what you do, or what you stand for, simply because it's all subjective.

Because a person who uses rational thought based on evidence will be for decriminalizing recreational drug use, whereas society as a whole still works on emotion, rumor, cognitive dissonance, rhetoric, mendacity, and prevarication.

I actually hope to see the day when cannabis is more legal than tobacco cigarettes. When cannabis starts piling up the corpses, it can then be made as legal.

But OP didn't say decriminalizing recreational drug use; he said "legalizing all drugs".

Can you elaborate on how you perceive the two phrases to differ in their meanings?

To me, decriminalization of personal use means that I can smoke weed, or maybe even meth or shoot heroin, and not be punished for it. This would minimize the harms that come directly from the government enforcing drug policy, for something that typically is not going to hurt anyone but myself.

Whereas legalizing it would mean that I'm free to manufacture meth and heroin and market it, and sell it to others; I would still have an incentive to use some drugs' inherently and biologically addictive nature to profit myself at the expense of others.

I specifically say "inherently and biologically" because many things are addictive to a degree - alcohol, tobacco, video games, in-game purchases, gambling - and any of them can ruin some person's life. But they don't appear to be as universally addictive as, say, heroin or meth, which can have terrible repercussions even if you stop using them. It's a difference of degree, but it's a significant one, and I want to head off at the pass any argument that selling meth to my neighbors is no different than selling them sugary soda or cookie-clicker clones.

I don't think you can kill the black markets unless you allow anyone [that can meet the regulatory burden] to manufacture and distribute.

And you can't tax them too highly, either, or those black markets spring right back into existence. See moonshining or cigarette smuggling for examples. A 25% excise tax at the point of sale to the consumer is probably the highest you can go. Taxation is, after all, one of the ways in which prohibition was backdoored into existence, and the amount of the tax is the maximum possible profit margin for someone whose sole business is evading the tax.

That leaves open the question of how you keep the most dangerous drugs--generally the opioids--from ruining people. That's really a moot point until the end of prohibition seems imminent. If certain people won't consider any other option, it's useless to throw one out there for discussion.

Really? Sometimes, especially when I'm trying to quit, I wish cigarette smoking was forbidden in more places.