Android O Beta Program | Hacker News Reader

Android O Beta Program

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100 pointsmadmax108109 comments

My Nexus 6P died last night after <2 years of service, and my wife's first 5X died after only 4 months. Now that the Pixel is priced as a premium device in line with the iPhone and other flagships, I find myself considering a non-Google phone for the first time since the N1 was released.

Given the short support curve for most Android devices from Google and especially from third parties, that device is quite likely to be an iPhone. What was unthinkable to me just a few short years ago is now reality... I type this on a MBP and I might be convert my phone platform now as well. A true testament to the constant change in the marketplace, and the need to evaluate based on features and performance rather than fanboism.

Just to provide a counterpoint: I'm still rocking a 3.5 year old Nexus 5 with almost zero evidence of its age (the battery discharges a bit faster than it used to but it's not noticeable enough to even warrant a new battery).

Yeah I am happily using a Nexus 5 too. Unfortunately, even though it still works well it is no longer receiving security updates. I would pay for someone to provide these and will consider moving to a new plate for my next phone.

LineageOS[1] might let you wring another year or two out (formerly known as Cyanogenmod). I still have my old N5 in a drawer, so far I have been happy with my 6P...

1: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/hammerhead

I'd still be using my Nexus 5 if all the antennas embedded in the back plate hadn't started losing their connections (no wireless charging, wifi and GPS signal are super-spotty).

The beauty of the Nexus 5 is virtually everything is replaceable and an easy DIY project. Sure, you may not be able to get every part OEM, but I've extended the life of mine several times now (including replacing the entire rear housing) as it's still the best phone I've ever owned.

I replaced the back plate, cleaned the contacts, and such. No joy.

Are they connected with leaf-spring contacts? If so, and if you haven't already, try cleaning the contacts with isopropyl, the closer to 100% the better. RF is screwy enough to be magical, and if there's skin oil or something on the contacts, that might be enough to cause the issues you're seeing.

Something like that. They actually look like they might have coiled springs providing tension to the leaves on the phone side, and then contacts kind of laminated on ribbon cables in the back panel.

- contacts visible in back cover (the 4 yellow contacts for wireless charging are the easiest to see): https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-RWgjtEwQYQ/maxresdefault.jpg

- spring-loaded contacts in the phone (3 around the camera, 2 on the opposite top corner, 4 match up with the wireless charging points): http://images.anandtech.com/doci/7517/Nexus5-1552.jpg

In mine, the back cover flexes, and contact isn't always maintained for all the connections. I've cleaned them with contact cleaner, and alcohol, tried bending the leaves to provide more pressure, etc. I also replaced the back at one point. Like the original, it would be fine for a while, then need readjustment. The body of the phone has a few thin, brittle parts, which started cracking (the back really wasn't designed to be removed often). I feel like the wear+tear on the phone body and constant mechanical maintenance just wasn't worth it.

Prior to opening the sucker because of the wireless charging not working, there shouldn't've been any finger oils on the contacts (or, I'd hope).

The wifi connectors are something like MMX . The qxi charging coil is leaf spring. I still have my Nexus 5 after 3 years and it runs great. Would get a pixel but no wireless charging.

Not really trying to ding the Nexus line itself, honestly I loved them overall. My N1 far surpassed my expectations, and lived on yet another year after I gave it to a friend. I liked the 6P quite a lot. The 5X/6P generation does seem to have fairly widely reported and consistent issues however.

They used to be subsidized by Google and offered at a lower price point, but at flagship levels they have greater competition. I guess it's time for me to consider yet another new territory with this round... device insurance.

Insurance is such a mine field. Tmobile for example will charge you $175 deductible for a claim. Add that into the $10/month for the plan, and you might as well just go buy a used phone off craigslist if something goes wrong.

Wells Fargo credit cards and the Chase Ink Preferred credit card both provide device insurance if you pay your monthly bill with the card.

You have been out of security support for a long time - apps, web pages and video clips can pwn your device.

That's surprisingly terrible. Unbelievable. To think that Google can't even support its own devices after 3 years whilst the Linux ecosystem supports a silly number of devices and platforms, substantially on a volunteer basis

Speaking of voluntarily basis, here is 7.1.1 on the N5:

https://download.lineageos.org/hammerhead

3 years is the absolute best case you can get, if you buy the device on release day.

You get only 1.5 years it's been on the market for 1.5 years.

This is terrible. I too have this phone and it still works perfectly, no repairs have been required. Are we now supposed to buy a new phone every year? Every two years? This is getting absurd.

Also, Windows at least tells you that support for your version is coming to an end. Google/Android has not notified me in any way that my device is not being supported anymore, that new updates will not be coming, what that might mean for me and what they suggest I should do.

I'm running Cyanogenmod on the Nexus 5 with dec/16 patchlevel. It comes as a minimal base over which you can install whatever apps you want. You can also install LineageOS or Sailfish OS. This is better than the level of support Google provides.

I have the same experience with my Note 3. This three-year-old device still works better than most new phones, except for drastically shorter battery life.

Two colleagues also still use this device, and one is contemplating replacing it because the latest Facebook app won't run on his Android 4.3, and he is not receiving a carrier update. My Note 3 is updated to Android 5.0.

I loved my N5 but the battery wasn't user replaceable. I am not one to crack open my phone (plus the power switch died). I got a 5x .. decent phone but had speed slowdowns since day 1. I made the mistake of getting a 16 GB version (lack of expansion is mind boggling). I'm also disappointed with the Pixel's price. Might get an iPhone next.

The Nexus 5 is very user serviceable - all the parts a labelled, most things just clip on/off. Replacing the power switch is a 10 minute job, and costs ~$5.

If only these things had screws! My biggest issue was opening it up (popping out the screen, digitizer, etc.) and putting it together back to its original state.

Replaced mine twice after it's not replaceable anymore (overheated I think) - need to replace whole mainboard.

Echoing this with a Note4, I get updates from Samsung almost every month (bi-monthly for the most part). Runs brilliantly.

It's great that it gets security updates, but these are updates for a 2015 operating system (Marshmallow). It is extremely sad that I device from 2014 with an $800 introduction price does not get the yearly Android updates beyond 2015.

For comparison, my iPhone 5s (that I recently replaced) from 2013, received iOS 10 and was still butter-smooth [1]. It will most likely also get iOS 11 this year.

tl;dr: you should expect/demand more from a device that almost costs a grand.

[1] I replaced it because I wanted more storage and live photos.

I love my N5, but the battery is dying, and I've also had to replace the power button too.

I would like to keep using it, but the battery plus the lack of software updates is pushing me back into the market...

(When I become Prime Minister, providing only 3 years of security support for a product that ought to last at least 5 will become illegal...)

I have a Nexus 5 as well. Mine has some cracks along the bezel but is otherwise fine. The battery is really wearing down a lot though. I think I may get an iPhone when it dies. There's no way I'm shelling out premium cash for a Pixel.

I have a similar experience with my nexus 5 before switching to the pixel. I've dropped it many times on the ground without a case or screen protector and it kept going. It's battery life was noticeable worse after ~3 years.

This has been also my gripe with Android. I have been developing for Android for over 5 years, and slowly switching to MBP, Xcode and iOS development since last year. And not turning back to Android dev for the meantime. My iPhone5s is still using the latest iOS version, so I have all the next several years to use this as a test device.

While Android on the other hand, I have countless dead phones because either Android N is not coming on it, especially Android O. And the Pixel phones from last 2 years is gonna be dead within this year. I feel like Google has no hope on how to solve this anymore. My minimum SDK is still at 19. My Android code has a lot of Build code check for backwards compatibility. Compared to my iOS code, there is completely none. Google should have address this issue since Marshmallow. But it is too late now.

And there is no Nexus phones here, so the devs here only has Samsung, LG and low cost phones which has no Google support.

A Nexus 4 handed down to my son recently stopped working when he dropped it, smashing the screen. Gave him my cast off Nexus 5 that was still storming great. My wife's Nexus 5 was working perfectly, though we replaced it with an iPhone 7 (to her great dismay, it turns out). My own Nexus 6P has worked perfectly, but for dev reasons I replaced it with a GS8 (which is simply a stunning device in every way, including the fact that I immediately dropped a UHS-1 64GB SD card it in and now do my data churning development on that).

The point, I guess, is that anecdotes vary. Heck, my son has been toying around with the G1 and G2, and Nexus One, I had sitting in drawers.

Yeah, devices dying that fast isn't the norm. That said, Apple will take better care of you inside or outside warranty. To be fair, that has been Apple's schtick for a long time, google is just getting into this business model.

I've had a good experience only once with Apple once out of three times I've taken items in, when they replaced the logic board on my MBP a week after the program to replace for that model ended. They still refuse to honor well known fraying problems with their MagSafe adapters. The other time involved a 2010 MBP battery replacement that should have taken 15 minutes to half an hour, maybe an hour (I was told as much). It ended up taking four hours and they never contacted me when it was ready. If Apple was willing to sell parts to their customers, I would have had it done in 10 minutes.

Honestly, I've had about the same experience with Google (specifically Project Fi) with a different set of issues. I can't really say that one company is better than the other, and I doubt it would be easy to find reliable data to make a case for one or the other.

Why would you do data churning on a phone over a PC or laptop? Not being rude, I'm curious.

I work on video products which entails an enormous amount of very high bitrate mobile video. Maybe it's a unwarranted fear, but I always feel like I'm killing the onboard flash so using a disposable SD card is always just comforting.

My 6P encountered severe battery issues (apparently a common issue). Google replaced it. You might want to try to do the same.

Was that while it was still in warranty? Mine N6P started dying at ~20% about a month after my warranty expired and I'm thinking about trying to get a replacement.

I did the exact same thing -- ask for a battery replacement a month after the warranty expired -- and they said yes. I think they basically have a silent recall situation on early 6Ps, regardless of warranty.

It was 2 months after the end of the warranty and I often hear people getting their 6P replaced because of that. A 1-2 years phone should not be unuseable and Google acknowledged that.

I'm also on the 6P; holding off on the Pixel until the next-gen replacement is available (hopefully at saner price levels). I have some battery issues (running battery-guzzling games would often cause the phone to shut down at ~ 40% battery) but otherwise still usable. Just flashed the O beta on it and it looks decent so far.

I wonder if Google will actually expand the Android One program. If it's globally available and also are eligible for beta testing it'd be really nice.

(I have a work iPhone, and the lack of customization is driving me nuts -- no home screen replacement, resource constraints means SwiftKey only supports two concurrent languages and no CJK, no way to associate installed apps with certain URL patterns, Apple Maps is privileged over other map apps...)

I think instead of going Android One, they're working on Android Go more. I think One was really a sort of trial run for Android Go - and with the coming underlying structure to truly separate drivers from the OS - lower end devices might be worthwhile in the near future.

One plus is the best choice. Great hardware, reasonable price, up-to-date Android no horrible skins on top of stock.

My OnePlus One is still going strong, and is as fast as ever.

I'm tempted by the OnePlus Five, but I may wait a few months to see if there are any issues before I purchase one. The customer support at OnePlus is notoriously poor, so I'm keen to wait for the second batch to arrive off the factory floor.

Eh, I liked my OnePlus One well in the beginning, but then the touch screen wouldn't work outside in summer, and failed completely after less than a year. Their customer service was much worse in those days (this was nearly two years ago), so I replaced it myself with an aftermarket screen until that one died a year later, too, though I obviously can't blame OnePlus for that. A friend who also has a OPO had to replace the bottom logic board because his microphone stopped working. Glad to hear yours works fine.

OnePlus provides impressive specs per dollar, and their phones are really nice 95% of the time. The last 5% is where they lost me.

I don't think that iPhones are significantly better. 2-3 out of 100 will die completely (motherboard/screen) in about a year.

Probably the classic infant mortality curve, just as my OnePlus 1 is going strong, a lot of my friends' still have their older phones, because they still work flawlessly.

Maybe it was just bad luck. But 2-3% failure rate sounds very high, can you provide a link with more information?

No, sorry, it's pretty much a hunch/guess/anecdote/observation.

I only found software rates https://www.blancco.com/resources/rs-state-of-mobile-device-... though I know nothing of the veracity of this ... study.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/218777/failure-rates-for... ..

Ah, finally something a bit more relevant: https://www.squaretrade.com/cell-phone-comparison-study-nov-... 2% for iPhone 4.

Thanks for looking it up. I also found the blancco study, but their score includes "crashing apps, WiFi connectivity and other performance issues" so it seems more like a consumer satisfaction survey than a device reliability study.

The squaretrade thing is more interesting, the raw data for the statista link is https://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/iPhone_failure_rates_6_2.... I'd be interested in an update on that, phone materials have changed a lot in the last six or seven years. I would hope that things have improved overall but it would be nice to get confirmation on that.

I love my Oneplus 2

Yup, fellow 5X-bricked user here. I've moved over to OnePlus because I can't trust Google to pick a good supplier for their Nexus phones.

OnePlus has their own issues but I'm not going to drop $400 on a phone that doesn't last more than a year.

Blu makes seemingly decent phones at the 100-250$ range, unlocked, on Amazon. Cameras don't seem amazing, but neither is the Nexus 5 camera.

You mean this Blu?:

https://arstechnica.com/security/2016/11/chinese-company-ins...

Yep. Great phones. As far as 3rd party shit doing stuff... that's the price of using non-Google phones I guess. Plus the battery lasts longer than Google's flagship phones (I've gotta charge a Nexus 5 2 or 3 times a day, it's stupid what tiny batteries the big players ship.)

It's weird but I sort of miss the Nexus 5 camera. A lot of my photos came out quite nicely despite its technical limitations. My 6P's camera is much more accurate, but also pretty bland in terms of colour and tone.

T-Mobile has a promotion[1] where you get a $325 back over 24 months on a Pixel, but at this point I would wait for the next model to come out since as you point out it's not a true flagship.

[1] https://www.t-mobile.com/offer/google-pixel-phone-offer.html

So you got a cheap phone and complain about the cheap experience. They offer a premium phone and you jump ship.

I personally love my pixel but there are more than a few nice Android phones to pick from.

6P is a 'cheap' phone?

Yes. It's half the price of other flagship phones.

I have some hope for HMD/Nokia Android phones. It seems like they're very vanilla android and have been updated with patches on a quick schedule. But only time will tell.

I did this beta program for Android N back in the day but had to revert because, uh, Pokemon Go didn't work on it. I'm embarrassed to admit I'm still playing.... but can anyone confirm whether Pokemon Go works for them on the Android O beta?

Seems to work fine on the O beta (Nexus 6P)

Haha, don't be embarrassed! I also want to know!

No nexus 6 support. Sad face.

The shelf life of phones is embarrassingly low. For no apparent reason.

The real issue for the Nexus 6 is that Qualcomm has completely abandoned their 32-bit mobile platforms. Look for "8084" here: https://wiki.codeaurora.org/xwiki/bin/QAEP/release - the Snapdragon 805 hasn't received a release since August 2016.

So, Google did an in-house bringup for 7.0 - and "normal" OEMs aren't able to do that. Qualcomm usually provides a lot of pre-compiled binaries to the OEM, which either require nasty hacks to work on newer versions of Android (which won't pass CTS - so can't be shipped), or just straight up don't work. The blame here rests largely with chip manufacturers and their short support cycles.

Of course, LineageOS[1] remains an option if you're looking for extended support for the Nexus 6. (disclaimer, I'm a device maintainer for Lineage)

[1]: https://lineageos.org/

A manufacturer should have contracts with vendors to update software for at least 3 years after production has been stopped. It will cost more (which is why most manufacturers don't do it) but would be an easy way to establish compatibility similar to Apple devices. I'm sure Apple has contracts like this in place with all manufacturers they use.

The Pixel phones use Qualcomm's flagship 64-bit SoCs, and they have a last update date of October 2018. Google's update policy is not good enough, especially now when they've started to charge premium prices.

And do they need a new kernel so desperately?

I don't understand the problems with backward compatibility. They already provide it via the Android SDK (the support library).

Java/Dex/Dalvik/ART or whatever it's called now that runs the shit works on Linux 3.0 probably. (Android 2.3 was released with Linux 2.6.35 [+ patches, I assume && hope], and that's currently the lowest supported API Level (that is api level 9)).

The kernel isn't the problem - one of the devices I maintain runs 7.1 (mostly) fine on Linux 3.0[1]. The issues lie in the HALs - which translate between the standard Android camera/sensor/telephony APIs and the vendor's implementation in the kernel. These are device-specific, and usually provided to the OEM by a HW/chipset manufacturer.

Google is generally pretty good about keeping source compatibility, but ABIs change, and sometimes completely unrelated changes break everything for no obvious reason. Some things I've encountered include:

* sensor blobs crashing when using a clang-built libc, but working with a gcc-built one.

* blobs crashing when using jemalloc, but not dlmalloc (dlmalloc was removed with 7.0).

* Vendors introducing hacks in the OS - workarounds to deal with broken HW media encoders (which misinterpret pixel formats), misbehaving GL blobs, or devices which expect one pixel format for their display when the system provides another (e.g. RGB vs BGR).

* closed-source OpenGL drivers which use-after-free - the bug's probably existed since forever, but it only manifests after 7.0.

[1]: https://github.com/LineageOS/android_kernel_samsung_smdk4412...

Oh. I see, so the binary blobs that are not exactly user space, but not exactly non-userspace either.

That's why XDA is full of ROMs that "just need to get GPS working and camera sometimes crashes" :(

How come Google doesn't try to source better hardware for their phones? Also, is this the cause of why Apple in-housed a lot of things?

Also, how come there isn't an isolation layer for these blobs, something like docker for the phone? (So they get their runtime dependencies, and communicate with them via a socket-shim?)

This is my mine gripe.

Google should put some resources into kernel development for a year or so.Get the changes they want into Linux 5.0 and make it the android long-term-release kernel. Then no further changes to the kernel unless its 0.0.1 security patches.

Google does this already[1]. As far as I know, it's possible to boot Android off a mainline kernel - the main obstacle is the lack of drivers in the upstream kernel. Certainly, a lot of the SoCs (especially in older phones) can _boot_ from mainline. Maybe you could even get a serial console, or a picture of tux on the screen. But the OEMs don't really have any incentive to upstream their drivers (or port older platforms to newer kernels) - why bother?

Probably the only instance that I'm aware of where an OEM has actually mainlined support for their own mobile devices is Samsung with some of their Tizen reference devices - "trats"[2], "trats2"[3] (which is pretty much identical to the Galaxy S3), "tm2" and "tm2e"[4]. Of course, these will probably never gain support for certain things like 3D acceleration and the modem in mainline, but it's certainly a good start. (Note: a few Nexus devices seem to have mainline DTS[5], but I'm not sure how complete they are).

[1]: https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/common/ [2]: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/arm/boot/... [3]: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/arm/boot/... [4]: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/tree/master/arch/arm64/boo... [5]: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/tree/master/arch/arm64/boo...

You missed my point.

It doesn't have to be a mainstream kernel. The only important part is that it is a fixed kernel version so drivers and such does not need to be re-written with each new android release.

> It doesn't have to be a mainstream kernel. The only important part is that it is a fixed kernel version

This is how it is done already. Google picks a kernel release (historically 3.0, 3.4, 3.10, 3.18, 4.4 etc.) and ports Android patches to that kernel while developing new features as well. Then SoC vendors do their bringups using that kernel tree.

My point was, kernel version should not change with every Android release...

It's not that they change kernel versions every month to the most recent ones anyway. It's roughly every year and if you check you'll see they're all upstream longterm versions which are supported 2-5 years.

A device is released with a specific kernel version and it doesn't get upgraded in devices lifetime even if the same device gets several Android upgrades. Native Nougat devices released in 2017 have kernel 4.4 which was released in early 2016, which is not even considered a new kernel by the upstream standards.

What do you expect the benefit everyone gains from sticking to the same kernel for 5 years? What is the point of developing a SoC in 2017 and bringing it up using Linux 2.6.32 instead of Linux 4.4? What is the benefit for Quallcomm, for Google or for users?

Cool but Apple's 32 bit iPhones still get updates and also use Qualcomm chips...

What's the difference in how they operate with suppliers?

Qualcomm CPUs. Modems are different and probably a lot less complex driver-wise, and thus easier and cheaper to support for Qualcomm.

The shelf life of _android_ phones is low, and it's strikingly different on iOS which receive updates for 5+ years.

The iPhone 5s was released in 2013 and it should get iOS 11 this year. The iPhone 5, which came out in 2012, is currently supported. However, it might be dropped this year because it's not 64-bit.

Android users should push for longer support. I had an original Nexus 1 and I was quite disappointed when it could no longer be upgraded. It cost me $600.

Aren't we comparing apples and oranges here? This is the O Beta. I'm sure O will be supported on the Nexus 6 once it's officially out.

No, the Nexus 6 has reached end-of-life and will not be receiving any more non-security updates. It already missed the tiny 7.1.2 maintenance update, so Google is serious about their EOL dates.

https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/4457705#nexus_device...

It is apple and oranges.

The situation is pretty complex but the support libs & play services are available on virtually all devices (API 9+ IIRC, but anything older would not be able to run most modern apps).

Does the same applies to old iPhones? Can the iPhone 5 run the most recent version of let's say the Facebook/Messenger app?

Yes. The iPhone 5 has received iOS 10, so it can run all iOS 10 apps in their most recent versions. There are some (mostly hardware) features that iPhone 5 users don't have access to (e.g. 3D Touch) so they might not be able to use all power features, but that doesn't prevent you from using the complete fully updated app catalog.

As an iPhone 5S user, I don't feel like I'm disadvantaged at all from having a phone that is three generations behind.

Sorry, I mean to ask about the performance aspect.

But I guess that's up to the developer anyhow.

Thanks for your reply. (A few of my friends also use 5s and they also feel it's still pretty okay.)

I believe the Nexus 6 is too old to get any future major updates. Last I read, they pulled the 7.1.1 update, downgrading these users to 7.0. It appears that you can still sideload 7.1 onto a Nexus 6, but will not currently receive OTA updates.

https://9to5google.com/2017/03/15/nexus-6-android-7-1-1-down...

Google has flat out said they won't support any devices past 18 months. The Pixel may not even receive any updates after O.

Well, to be explicit, they set the minimum timeframe. For example, the Nexus Player is still on the latest version of Android and will/should receive 'O'

(Not letting google off the hook here. What they're doing isn't great and they should do better. Just saying your statement isn't entirely correct)

I had to stop using my Nexus One when it could no longer install updates due to the limited on-device storage. I'd still be using it, otherwise.

The N1 was groundbreaking for me.

I took this shot of my Nexus One next to the new S8 Plus, highlighting 7 years of advance in technology:

http://i.imgur.com/sXnfBt4.jpg

"The shelf life of phones is embarrassingly low. For no apparent reason"

No it wasn't, and I didn't even get this phone new but a year into its life. This phone came out in 2014. It got its fair share of updates.

I was part of the N beta with my pixel. Overall it was pretty smooth, but 2 minor annoyances. When it came time for the final, it didn't come for those of us in the beta until a couple weeks later (though you could manually flash it which I did). The other was that on reboot there was a popup that you would have to hit OK on to continue.

Just installed it on my Pixel XL already on a beta version of N. Sadly the update failed meaning I had to factory wipe. Given I'm overseas right now, not ideal as I can't receive my 2FA SMS to log back in to everything! I guess I should be less trigger happy on beta software!

Otherwise seems like a nice incremental step. Android pay not currently supported which is another downer to running this beta.

Being overseas should not stop you from receiving SMS.

I have a feeling Google customer support problems will only be fixed when they solve AI in the next few years.

Now where have I heard that before?

Like many previous posters, my N5's battery is starting to die. I've changed it once and it hasn't helped. Otherwise, it's a decent phone and it has served me very well. I've thought about possibly going to the new OnePlus when it's released, BUT the lack of "long-term" support (more than 2yrs) bothers me.

I bought an iPhone 7 just to give it a whirl, but I eventually gave it to the wife. There's something about that back button that I can't let go.

Got O installed about an hour ago. Some nice changes. Nothing that I'd class as amazing (for users) but a lot of steady incremental changes none the less.

For those who have installed it, does it (re)-add Night Mode that we've seen in N previews on Nexus devices?

Yes, there is a Night Light setting: http://imgur.com/c7dCAR0

Is that on Pixel, or on Nexus?

(there are some claims that there's a difference for that particular option)

Not seeing that option on my 6p.

Pixel!

My N build (stock Android on Pixel) has night mode.

Have they settled on a dessert name yet?

Not yet, but they did provide packs of Oreos for attendees. Apparently they gave these out last year, so it's not a lock.

Oreos are probably a trademark, so I wouldn't bet on that. How about Sundae?

To be fair, Kitkat was a trademark too :)

Am I missing something? Sundae doesn't even have an "O" in it

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