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Comment by Apfel | Hacker News Reader

I don't think it's really fair to suggest that average Chinese people have a choice in the matter.

I lived in China (Guangzhou) for several years, and it was literally impossible to buy a computer with a legal copy of windows installed on it (or, failing that, a standalone windows disc) in the main computer district of the city.

I eventually had to hop the border to Hong Kong when I wanted to buy a laptop.

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I have lived in China forever and I have no idea what you are talking about.

Every laptop that I have owned came with legal copy of Windows with it. My family members have brought numerous legal copies (discs) from a local "computer district" as well.

How do you confirm this?

Is the Windows sticker on a laptop good enough?

Why is this downvoted? I thought the Windows sticker on a laptop is the best proof that Windows is pre-installed...

The question isn't "Is Windows installed"... it's "Is the install of Windows on a laptop legal and legitimate".

A sticker says Windows is installed... it doesn't say anything about legality.

OP said "I couldn't find a laptop with a legal copy of Windows installed". Responder said "Everything I got was legal, and had no issues buying new discs with legal licenses".

OP said "it was literally impossible to buy a computer with a legal copy of windows installed on it".

Responder said "it is quite possible (even common) to buy a computer with a legal copy of windows installed on it" and asked "is a Windows sticker on a laptop good proof for legally installed Windows?" with the assumption that pirated Windows does not come with a sticker.

PS: That assumption turns out to be debatable [0].

[0]: https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a21m2.8232368.0.0.TlUMn...

Don't most manufacturers pre-image OS on computers at the factory now? They usually have an option to create recover disk/sb drive.

In Asia most brands sell the laptops without OS for cheaper price compared to the same model but with windows preinstalled. Some stores may install a bootleg version for free or even fake it as a genuine Windows install.

Holographic stickers are routinely counterfeited in China: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=283

Last time I had to buy Windows install media I went directly to a Microsoft corporate store.

I'm not sure how we can successfully argue about this when it's based on experience...

For the record, I was visiting Gangding in Guangzhou (the computer District) several times between 2012-14. Every vendor I found was baffled by my request and didn't know why I would ever want this.

I bought my laptop in 2014 in Hong Kong after my UK-bought one died.

Here are the instructions from HP[0], Lenovo [1] and Dell [2] respectively on how to reinstall the Windows that comes with the machine. So it's not really "based on experience".

[0] https://support.hp.com/cn-zh/document/c01902861

[1] http://iknow.lenovo.com/detail/dc_038423.html

[2] http://www.dell.com/support/contents/cn/zh/cnbsd1/article/Pr...

I'm not saying my experience is more correct or better than yours.

I have no idea where you were/are in China, but it was impossible to buy a genuine copy of Windows or a computer with it installed when I was in Guangzhou.

This is not related to experience, but common sense, all big brands of computers should sell legitimate products, such as HP, DELL, as far as I know, they also occupy a large share of the Chinese market, they are large-scale piracy in the Chinese market? Perhaps there may be some misunderstanding or communication problems, as far as I know, some big brands of computer have pre-installed operating system on the hard disk recovery partition, does not provide the operating system install disc, but the restore disc.

I've said this in another comment, but here goes again:

Actually, the laptops I tried out were almost all Dell + Lenovo (I wanted a thinkpad or XPS). I think, as another commenter said, they were probably Linux + FreeDOS systems originally. What the store owners would do is use Norton Ghost to put whatever (illegal) OS I wanted on there.

I think maybe there are large regional differences in product availability or regulation. I know it was a lot harder to buy iPhones in certain tier 1 Chinese cities than others when I was there, for example.

Maybe you were not trying hard enough. https://microsoft.tmall.com/

In Shenzhen, I have had both of your experiences. In buying mass market, name brand laptops, legit copies of Windows were normal. But from the same electronics malls, my experience was that almost nobody bought these [much more expensive] computers, and instead preferred the cheap knockoffs with tons of pre-installed pirated software. There were also -- always -- hawkers offering ripped copies of software, music & DVDs on the street outside.

those are not knockoffs,but DIY counter or shop,no named brand,Do It Yourself,at your own interest and risk.most these DIY shops only exist in electronic components shopping malls,visitors of such malls of course prefer DIY. Most normal people just buy named brand computers pre-installed OS in normal malls,electrical shops，brand stores,and even in big supermarkets such as Carrefour. so I am very strange and shocking that Apfel can not buy a named brand computer pre-installed legal OS in the third largest city of china

For the record, I also checked my local 大润发 and 国美电器, where they did the same shit.

The person you're repyling to explicitly told us his experience. If you say it's not based on experience, you're calling him a liar.

I think bgee was saying that their side of the argument (that legal Windows is available) is not based on experience.

Or maybe he had an experience not reflecting the reality, which often happens when someone fails to overcome the language barrier.

I speak Chinese and I was with my Chinese wife. Thanks for the patronising attitude though :P

His experience is very shocking, he can not buy a HP or DELL computer with a legal copy of windows installed on it in GUANGZHOU.

Actually, the laptops I tried out were almost all Dell + Lenovo (I wanted a thinkpad or XPS). I think, as another commenter said, they were probably Linux + FreeDOS systems originally.

What the store owners would do is use Norton Ghost to put whatever (illegal) OS I wanted on there.

I don't think you understand what "based on experience" means in this context.

I was trying to say that this argument can be based on fact instead of experience.

Systems that have already been infected with the NSA DOUBLEPULSAR rootkit are more vulnerable to infection [1].

The high prevalence in China (and Russia) might also indicate that these systems were hacked by the NSA prior to the Microsoft March 2017 update patch and the WannaCry ransomware.

[1] http://blog.talosintelligence.com/2017/05/wannacry.html

For reference, the specific quote "WannaCry appears to primarily utilize the ETERNALBLUE modules and the DOUBLEPULSAR backdoor. The malware uses ETERNALBLUE for the initial exploitation of the SMB vulnerability. If successful it will then implant the DOUBLEPULSAR backdoor and utilize it to install the malware. If the exploit fails and the DOUBLEPULSAR backdoor is already installed the malware will still leverage this to install the ransomware payload. This is the cause of the worm-like activity that has been widely observed across the internet."

Why doesn't the PRC make it's own operating system? It could be based completely off of western technology like Linux, but they could claim it's completely Chinese made and tout it as a huge technological advancement - like they do with their trains.

There already is an official Ubuntu distro for China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Kylin

Many prefer Deepin rather than Kylin. https://www.deepin.org/

They have made Red Flag Linux back in the days, which was possibly based on Red Hat, which I found amusing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux

Not only amusing but also a failure.

There is currently a big push towards getting their own semi-conductor industry

Because we are lazy. Com'on, the US government hasn't banned Win10 export to China yet.

Home baked RTOSes prosper though.

They could run Linux. Or buy a mac. Or buy a windows license from abroad.

Seems like plenty of choices to me.

You forgot to add "Write their own OS" to your really good suggestions here.

Yeah, but keep in mind that not everyone's computer-savvy enough to do that. Often people will go the path of least resistance... and if it means your laptop/computer ships with illegal copies of Windows, that's what you're going to use.

I think Macbooks are pretty expensive in China (last I checked, this was a few years ago, so this might have changed), which is why people are gonna leap for the cheaper alternatives.

No idea why this is being downvoted. Pretty sure it's legal to run FreeBSD and Linux in China, if you can't afford an Apple. Convenience isn't an excuse for copyright violation.

The average poster on HN would be okay with doing this, but broader society would not. My mother, bless her heart, struggles with email. When she needs something, she goes to Best Buy and gets whatever the salesman tells her to get. Telling her "Oh, Best Buy is breaking the law, but you can install FreeBSD, and you'll be fine" is a little out of her comfort zone.

Actually, I'd say "go buy a laptop from the shop in Melbourne that sells systems with Linux pre-loaded, they'll look after you".

Not only is that a viable approach, I'd take any bet you'd like that she'd get better support from them than any 'big brand' supplier of Windoze boxen.

(Actually, I'd probably say "holy shit I thought you were dead", but that's specific to my mother).

The problem is that most of the software that Chinese people use from day to day are typically only available on Windows.

So? That sounds like a bad decision on their part.

The decision to try to use FreeBSD or Linux would probably leave them unable to type in their own language.

I have tried what passes for an IME for Linux desktop applications (formerly SCIM, now IBus). It doesn't work with some applications. It crashes some applications sporadically. And one technology was replaced by another that doesn't work the same way without a smooth upgrade path.

If you are a power user who has been using *nix for years and reading lots of documentation in English, you can come up with the right configuration and workarounds for occasional typing in CJK. That's no way to actually use a computer to do things if your primary language is Chinese.

The IME situation in modern X frankly sucks. Back in the day I regularly contributed to the relevant projects, but our efforts were continually thwarted by people who had no idea about CJK requirements and worse, won't listen to us ("why do you need to pass keystrokes to a separate process?", "users don't need a choice of IMEs per language", etc). It got so tiring that eventually most of the regular contributors moved on.

And now I have no idea what's going to happen with Wayland.

>Convenience isn't an excuse for copyright violation.

Why does one need an excuse for copyright violation?

Heh. I'm a little sympathetic to that view, myself:

http://praxeology.net/anticopyright.htm

Still an area I'm mulling over.

I'm opposed to it beacuse it is censorship, while I reject private property altogether. Different ways of reaching the same conclusion, I suppose :)

Indeed. I think private property is one of the foundations of civilisation, but I'm not entirely convinced that IP is a legitimate form of property.

You can install Windows for free, and then buy a license for it. You have some time to use the OS before the trial period expires; then some annoyances kick in.

(Of course, if it's cracked in some way to circumvent that without paying then it's illegal.)

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