The Food Lab: The Science of No-Knead Dough (2011) | Hacker News Reader

The Food Lab: The Science of No-Knead Dough (2011)

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71 pointsTomte40 comments

The thermodynamic argument is wrong. The radiant energy only depends on the temperature of the enclosure, not on its size. For example, if the diameter of the oven doubles, then each surface unit of the oven transfers energy to the dough at a rate 4 times slower, but there are 4 times as many surface units. The result is that the total energy flow dies not change.

I'd believe it if the Dutch Oven were made out of a higher emissivity material than a standard oven. But I think they're both porcelain-coated.

I think that, at typical oven temperatures, both can be approximated well enough by black bodies.

This is pretty basic, and I'm surprised Kenji made such an error, given that he could easily have asked someone.

I'm pretty sure that a dutch oven simply allows for more humidity in the air in contact with the dough, which allows that air to be hotter, without drying out the crust. In other words, the same mechanism that commercial bread ovens use to make bread.

I don't believe you're characterizing his thermodynamic explanation accurately - he's simply pointing out that the distance from the source of thermal radiation matters. Since radiant energy follows the inverse square law, this makes perfect sense.

if there were exactly one point source of radiation it would matter, but there isn't. You have to integrate the cumulative radiation from all the points on the surface. The number of points in a subtended angle goes up as the square of the distance from the bread, and each points' contribution is the inverse square of that distance. This is true uniformly over any subtended arc, so the shape can't matter either. The result only depends on the emissivity of the material.

For a point emitter it's 1/d^2. For a plane it's 1/d^0.

I'm a bit confused -- I think the point Kenji is making is that the lid as a radiant heat source is much closer than the top of the oven.

It doesn't matter, because the fact that the walls of the oven are farther away is compensated by the larger surface area. It's invariant.

Alternatively, decreasing the size of the oven wouldn't make a difference. If that was the case, this recipe would work in a small toaster oven. The inverse square law is factually sound, but incorrectly applied.

My intuition would speculate the recipe works because the dutch oven is a "better" black body than the oven. So the dutch oven acts as a huge heat sink and then more efficiently retransmits by radiation that energy to the bread. As a secondary effect (or maybe this is the primary effect), the dutch oven promotes significantly more heat transfer primarily through conduction to the bread.

Conduction through the bottom of the pot, which is in direct contact with the bread, might be an important part of it. However, if the heat transfer is much more effective, why doesn't it burn the bottom side?

Porcelain is a big part of it.

Baking stones are designed to balance specific heat and conduction so that you don't just end up with a burnt crust on a ball of raw dough.

I couldn't get the recipe to load -- is the loaf put into a hot pan, or is the pan heated with the dough? In the latter case the whole cooking process is slowed down to allow the dough to rise a bit extra before it starts cooking.

The loaf is put into a preheated pan. I typically preheat for 30-35 minutes.

It did, for at least one of the commenters.

However my theory is that the dough itself conducts heat better the denser and wetter it is. The bottom of the dutch oven transfers the heat very quickly, but also right at the beginning, when the dough is densest and wettest. by the middle of the cooking time, when the dough is likely to burn, it is actually the coldest part of the pot.

are you considering that the no-knead recipe calls for preheating the enclosure, and then gives additional tips to get the temperature even higher than the maximum possible in a given oven (for example turning the broiler on and leaving the door open, etc).

that cast iron pot is _hot_ by the time the dough gets in.

Another pretty-easy variation to this are the "overnight" and "Saturday" recipes in Flour Water Salt Yeast.

Very slight kneading required, but not much. Easy cleanup, and better crumb than the no-knead recipes in my experience.

http://www.karenskitchenstories.com/2013/09/overnight-white-...

Turns out that steam baking is making a huge difference in the quality and taste of bread. That's why a dutch oven is required when baking in a normal oven.

I recently got a steam capable combi oven from the Tovala Kickstarter project (a YC company), and it makes awesome bread, even from something as simple and cheap as Trader Joe's pizza dough.

This it what it looks like (not my tweet): https://twitter.com/AvidanRoss/status/861346625859371008

I've been making this overnight style bread for years and people love it. I've probably told guests to "Google country bread city bread" 30 times.

http://chefmichaelsmith.com/recipe/country-bread-city-bread/

Getting steam in with your dough is a big deal. Instead of using the dutch oven to bake my loaves, I have a baking steel for high heat transfer and bake under a stainless steel bowl. The bowl doesn't have the thermal mass that a dutch oven does, but it's a lot easier to put a loaf in the oven, since you're not manipulating a 450F cast iron pot, but instead just peeling the loaf onto the baking steel. The bowl keeps a lot of moisture trapped close to the loaf (sometimes, if I'm feeling frisky I'll spray some extra water in on as I put the whole thing together).

What I've found is that the retained moisture inside the bowl setup helps a lot, but it's also relatively easy to burn the bottom of the loaf, as the baking steel can hold a lot of heat (I also have the problem of an older oven with a pretty wide swing in thermostat tolerances)

I've been baking a variant of this recipe for several years now. It's the best bread I've made at home hands down. If you have a dutch oven (even a large cookie tray and upside down stainless steel bowl will do the trick), do try it!

There are many great variations on this recipe. Lahey has a coconut chocolate version [0] that is wonderful, even with half the chocolate he recommends. Toasted sesame seeds and blue cheese (added at one tenth the weight of the flour each) is another winner. I also came up with a sriracha & crushed red pepper flake version [1] that is pretty great, if I do say so myself.

[0] http://www.wnyc.org/story/70589-recipe-for-coconut-chocolate...

[1] http://madscientistlabs.blogspot.ca/2014/06/diablo-bread-bre...

I've made this bread a few times with great success, too! I can advocate for the steel bowl method, as I've never owned a proper dutch oven.

I'll try it with a stainless steel stock pot with steel lid - would anyone suggest any form if 'seasoning' of the steel?

And has anyone tried a sourdough version of this recipe? I have a pretty cheerful sourdough going at present.

Cast iron dutch ovens can be had cheaply, second-hand. Sometimes they are a bit rusty / caked with ancient foodstuffs, but an hour at your oven's highest heat - with your windows open - should take them back to foundry clean. Then you can oil them lightly (I like flaxseed oil), and bake them again upside down to season them, at more like bread-baking temps.

I think rather than "radiant energy" the dutch oven (being pre-heated) acts like a "thermal capacitor" because of its mass. It discharges a large amount of heat into the dough very quickly once its dropped into the confined space. The lid trapping the humidity in that tiny space does the rest.

The thing that makes kneading annoying is the flour on the counter and all the little pieces of dough left in the mixing bowl when taking the dough out on the table. So in a sense, this doesn't solve the problem of kneading for me.

Will I get a better bread if I knead this recipe?

You will get a different bread.

This is like a pre-ferment rather than an actual dough. It's overproofed -- you can see through the crumb, and it has a wet, gelatinous texture due to the starch all breaking down.

And as others have noted physics knowledge is lacking.

Some folks local to Minneapolis have had a good run with their no-knead recipe

https://artisanbreadinfive.com/

The basic sourdough recipe makes a loaf with a great crust and good crumb, although I find it a bit weepy, in that it doesn't hold its shape too well because the dough is so wet.

The kids love the olive oil dough for pizzas and breadsticks.

I've been baking a lot of bread lately (pushing 80 lbs of flour this year), but I haven't tried these no-knead recipes yet. My kids don't like a really assertive crust, and peanut butter falls right through a wide-open crumb, so I'm going to stick to drier, denser loaves for the time being. Nonetheless, I'm interested! Maybe I'll try a one-off loaf just to see how it turns out.

you should try it, it's shockingly easy. Like 20 minutes of work total

I suggest trying the no-knead for pizza dough. It's a perfect fit.

Giving this a try! Thanks for the tip.

Can you give me a good bread recipe with a soft crust? We've tried these no-knead recipes and the crust has always come out too hard -- that's turned us off from baking our own bread.

I've had good luck with focaccia bread recipes. However I used a bread machine to knead and proof and then baked it in the oven.

It's paywalled, but America's Test Kitchen/Cook's Illustrated has a great sandwich bread recipe for stand mixers that's not a lot of work and turns out great.

Adding butter, powdered milk, or even dried potato into the recipe will often give a softer crust. A small amount can go a long way! Another trick is to brush the loaf itself with melted butter, especially after taking it out.

These no-knead recipes are higher-hydration breads and therefore have correspondingly higher cooking temperature, which will harden the crust. You may be better off looking for sandwich bread / pan bread recipes. Pan de mie pans may interest you if you really get into this.

For my money, kneading is part of the fun. Within reason anyhow. Like the sibling comment says, add fat. I use butter or olive oil. It's hard to go wrong when supermarket bread is your baseline. Pretty much any loaf you bake is better (the occasional inedible experiment notwithstanding.) Here's my approach. Let's call it...

Four Kids Bread -- The Bread You Make When You Have Four Kids And Can't Be Bothered To Do Anything Fancy

Step 1: Mix some flour, maybe three cups, with an equal amount of water and maybe a teaspoonful of yeast and a little less than a teaspoonful of salt. This makes a very wet mix. Put it in a big bowl and cover with plastic wrap.

Step 2: Find a cool part of your living space and let it sit there. Possibly forget that you started bread.

Step 3: A day or three later, whenever you get the chance, remember that you started bread. Come back to it. It smells funky, but there's no fuzz on it so it's probably OK.

Step 4: Add some fat. Half a stick of melted butter, or a couple tablespoons of olive oil. Stir.

Step 5: Add a little flour and stir, continuing to add more until stirring becomes tiresome. Then put some flour on a flat surface and turn the dough out onto it. Sprinkle some more flour on top. Knead the dough until it stops being fun. Add more flour if it sticks to your hands or the surface.

Step 6: Shape it into a cylinder, more or less and put on an oiled baking sheet. Cover and let sit until it looks bigger. Or not. If you don't you'll have a denser loaf. Possibly very dense. But maybe you're in a hurry.

Step 7: Preheat an oven to whatever seems hot enough. 375? Ovens vary.

Step 8: Bake until it's done. I know they say to use a thermometer, but I don't have one so I thump the bread and if it sounds hollow, it's done. Hasn't failed me.

Looks like a lot of steps, but it's really minimal effort. Cheaper and way better than American supermarket bread.

You can get a similar benefit to taste without changing texture by using a preferment; i.e. a biga or poolish, depending on what term you like.

Let the preferment sit overnight, then mix it into your "normal" loaf recipe, and cook as usual. You may have to tweak a bit - I usually have to reduce water slightly, but you should get a very nice result.

I make no-knead at least twice a week at home. it's all we eat in terms of bread. i don't bake anything else, just bread (and pizza using the same dough). it has not failed me in 5 years.

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