M.M.A. Fighter’s Pummeling of Tai Chi Master Rattles China | Hacker News Reader

M.M.A. Fighter’s Pummeling of Tai Chi Master Rattles China

nytimes.com

27 pointsjseliger22 comments

Certainly, there are illusions around traditional martial arts , which is highlighted by this Taichi guy's agreement to such fight in the first place. However, the Chinese reaction is not simply a shock reaction (as the title "rattle" implies), but a deep-rooted cultural reaction. Chinese culture is about longterm wellness, which, in a superficial way, is about face/elegance. It is much more important in Chinese culture to gain respect or to save face, which is of long term value (often beyond one's lifetime). Winning a fight by keep pounding a guy on a ground with no obvious defense is the opposite of elegance (elegance is equivalent to civilization in the culture), therefore, Chinese people would feel definitely not right and the reaction is simply to emphasize their value system: winning with no elegance is not winning at all. In fact, it is worse than losing, highlighted in the following events.

In another word, if the Taichi guy beat the MMA guy by in the end hitting the defenseless repeatedly, the Chinese reaction will probably be the same. While the MMA style does emphasize compounding the weakness, it is probably one of the reasons that it is never popular in China.

So would Mr. Xu have received the same negative public feedback if he had avoided the ground and pound, and won without perceived brutality?

I'm having difficulty seeing how this fight could have happened without either some form of KO/TKO, which I assume would have generated the same outrage, or degenerating into a farcical slapfest, which would have lost Xu face anyway.

Am I wrong? Or would Xu have killed a sacred cow no matter how he won? Because let's face it, it was clearly Xu's fight to lose. Xu should just come to America then, we have different sacred cows here.

> So would Mr. Xu have received the same negative public feedback if he had avoided the ground and pound, and won without perceived brutality?

I think Mr. Xu would not receive negative public feedback if he simply stops at knocking Mr. Wei down or simply choke hold (not deadly). After all, the fight was organized and started in a fair mood. I think before the result, most audiences are simply curious. And the ground pounding is quickly stopped and people rush to take care of Wei, which supports my belief on what is the real show stopper.

KO would be acceptable if it is perceived to be necessary, that is, if there were signs that Xu could lose without the quick KO.

By sacred cows, do you refer to cultural value system? If yes, then that is my point. If not, what will be the equivalent sacred cow in America?

If you think the Chinese are so sensitive that one youtube fight has suddenly hurt their pride, then you're a fool.

It's about money. The movie industry, the tourism industry, the martial arts training industry.. they'd all be heavily affected if Chinese martial arts were suddenly shown to be just a gimmick, especially if the person proving a point was in-fact Chinese.

It's about power and respect, which in China (and everywhere else) translates to one's ability to make money. "Don't rock the boat". When so much seniority has been earned by so many people, naturally they'll try to maintain their place.

What I don't get is how Chinese people don't already know this. I know nothing about fighting at all but from the article and the comments on the NYTimes site it seems it's common knowledge in the west that MMA fighters always win against other styles, it's practically scientific fact. Does the government censor information about martial arts too, or what's going on here? How can so many Chinese people be ignorant of the basic facts of fighting that seeing a fight of the kind that has been happening for decades causes some scandal?

That's the thing we should be discussing here. Not martial arts, but how such an asymmetry in information came about.

First to reply the parent claim: the majority of Chinese reactions come from people who receive zero money from the fame of martial arts. Therefore, money cannot account for the overwhelming reaction. To check, who do you think receive money from the kung fu mystery?

Now to answer your question: it is not about the amount of information, it is about one's belief. Belief has to be shaken from within; otherwise, opposite information from outside often only compound one's belief.

The belief in the traditional martial arts is a zen that to most it is an ultimate goal, not a reality. Defeating kung fu practitioners does not mean that true kung fu masters who obtained the zen can be similarly defeated.

Beliefs, culture, and faith are not in the scientific domain. And philosophically, it is questionable that currently accepted scientific domain is superior to beliefs, culture, and faith.

It shouldn't be a surprise after the Gracie Challenge showed most of the arts couldn't deliver against well-trained, well-rounded fighters that systematically exploit their weaknesses. My favorite example on someone from a kung fu background is the video below since it shows how helpless they are without ground training. Also, Rorion's excellent narration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

Edit to add: "At this point, Royce could apply the choke but he elected not to. There's many variables in groundfighting..." Nah, Royce is just an asshole who was putting another asshole in his place with humiliation. He had a God Complex when I met him that didn't fit his fight record. ;)

You meet Royce? Cool! Sorry to hear he's an asshole. I admit there's some vestigial hero worship when I hear his name.

Not surprised at all to learn he's got a God complex though. I would have loved to see him matched up against some of the new blood, like Wonder Boy. Might have helped with his God complex. That's in fantasy territory now, I guess, like imaginary Bruce Lee matchups.

Do you really think its more the lack of groundfighting in kung fu that makes them helpless? Or their "gentler" training style? I've fought some hapkido guys back before groundfighting got big who had no problem with takedown defense. You'd get rocked with a back kick or a knee to the head unless you nailed the takedown.

Kazushi Sakuraba, the Gracie Hunter, certainly helped with his God complex. Took Royce some time to come back later to only win by decision. Interesting part is that many MMA people train in judo or BJJ for ground but Sakuraba comes from catch wresting w/ some moves straight out of fake wrestling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazushi_Sakuraba

Far as Royce, I'll give you one more thing since you're a fan of his. I was one of few invited w/ local media to eat at Buffalo Wild Wings with him. I don't allow pictures but somebody got one of him, me, and local Krav expert staring at his laptop. What we were looking at was his second (or first?) great love: guns. He had a collection of pistols, rifles, SMG... huge collection. The neatest thing... I'd love to know if there's public copies... is pictures of his many kids each posing with one trying to look cool. The are individual ones and whole set together like an army. The bes though was the little girl with the SMG at low, side-ways position with mean look on her face but looking adorable as hell instead. She was just too cute. I immediately thought she could've been Hit Girl on Kick Ass if she was a bit older. Also, given how Gracie family trains their own, she might also live up to it in real life more than most. Kyra comes to mind.

"I've fought some hapkido guys back before groundfighting got big who had no problem with takedown defense. You'd get rocked with a back kick or a knee to the head unless you nailed the takedown."

Mirko Cro Cop comes to mind as a TKD fighter with great, takedown defense that did well in professional MMA. I've done well in personal fights on that with background of Shotokan karate, military, and ninjutsu styles. Thing is, a good enough grappler will eventually grab you and probably take you down. Most fighting environments are simply not open enough to dodge the person forever. Or you trip over something in heat of the moment and need ability to fight from bottom. Or their buddy jumps on you as you're winning (too many times...). The average, street thug can be defeated with something as simple as Krav Maga.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkcu2sRnIlo

There were things I noticed when studying Kung Fu, esp Chi Na. They correctly recognized principles such as surprise (partial intent of motions), hitting vital points, conserving energy, and enemy confusion. What they missed that Western, Japanese, and Thai styles identified was essentially the most efficient response to a situation that was easiest to learn. The Kung Fu and other systems like it add too much complexity with too little in terms of what's simple and effective.

Take Krav. Most defense situations are defeated with a tiny number of moves or principles that are reused in many ways across diverse number of situations. Likewise, most stand-up fighters (outside instant KO's) can be defeated with ground fighting. Much of that can be done with essentially a blue belt in BJJ with something like Gracie Combatives from my understanding as a non-BJJ guy (so fact-check it). I predicted based on this that most MMA fights in UFC would be won with a small number of moves whose attack and defense could be mastered in many configurations to give an advantage. This turned out true with many UFC fighters training in such a way to maximize ability to exploit that. Muay Thai having small number of attacks but devastating fighters was one of my hints. Likewise, I won almost all my fights going for the throat with hits or sleeper holds (not "rear-naked" cuz I keep my clothes on when attacked). So, I think a lot of these styles have too much unnecessary complexity, they miss ability to apply few techniques to many situations, they don't spar enough outside their style, they don't model real-world attacks enough, and many (including Shotokan) waste too much energy. Also, ninjutsu teaches us deception can go a long way. I always taught to imitate kung fu, drunkeness, arms crossed like I'm pacifist, etc to encourage enemies to do something stupid to expose themselves to a fight ender. Planned to illustrate it in MMA before a brain injury outside of fighting cost me my memory, reflexes, pain tolerance, and other stuff. Bad shit.

Anyway, I give you one last thing tonight you might find interesting as it was my end goal in MMA outside an Absolute Championship over all weight classes. I was going to try anyway haha. The thing I liked was Mas Oyama's 100-man kumite. I planed to attempt to achieve it plus see if anyone would do a MMA version. That maybe 10-25 man or up to 100 within three hours which I think was Helios record fight against Santos. Hell, I'll give you Kimura vs Santos too as Vale Tudo used to be wild. :)

For first, type 100 man kumite into Google to get many interesting results. I lost my original reference.

http://judoinfo.com/kimura2/

> I always taught to imitate kung fu, drunkeness, arms crossed like I'm pacifist, etc to encourage enemies to do something stupid to expose themselves to a fight ender. Planned to illustrate it in MMA

That sounds interesting. Are there any fighters at the moment emphasising deceptiveness in their work?

Not the original guy but deception is a necessary part of martial arts and all fighters practice it to some extent. For example there are certain kicks that the start of them looks pretty much the same so you can try tricking your opponent into thinking you are doing a push kick but then transition into something like a roundhouse. Overall they don't do stuff like cross their arms because to do anything you would need to uncross your arms, which could telegraph the attack or make it slower in many cases. As an aside I was always taught that if someone looked like they were trying to start something that I should stand with my arms extended with both palms out (like I was trying to mime the word stop to them) as it displays the intention to not fight while still keeping my hands ready to punch or throw

"as it displays the intention to not fight while still keeping my hands ready to punch or throw"

I've done that plus arms crossed. The latter looks even better on camera when making self-defense arguments. Main thing I practiced from that position was feigning a low kick or tackle to get them to lean down followed by a neck strike straight from crossed position. From there to regular striking or grappling if opponent is still standing. The palms out method is more flexible, though.

That makes sense, it's all about tradeoffs and what works with you in the end.

I'm not sure as I don't follow the shows much. I can't remember most of what I see so (shrugs). I know for sure the Hapkido people do it since I independently discovered one of their move sets. Idea is to do a move that's fake then the exact opposite of that move right after. My two were: feign right hook followed by hard backhand; inside vs outside crescent kicks. They had even more. Hapkido people fighting non-Hapkido people using these techniques would be an example of deception.

Also, flying submissions (my favorite) almost always involve an element of deception since a miss is so costly. Shinya Aoki does a lot of those. One in the video below shows that he looks like he's going to grab or control arms but lightening-quick jumps on one for an armbar. I similarly did fake clinches or upper-body take-downs to sacrifice throw someone into an anaconda or rear-naked choke. A related aspect I saw done esp in judo is you're trying to get them to react in a specific way to the feigned move so their own positioning or momentum aids you're real move.

https://youtu.be/0GKneOIyXyA?t=1m36s

Except Judo.

There are quite a small number of old martial art that's pretty decent still.

Gracie is just BJJ which is just an offshoot of Judo anyway with more emphasis on ground. So I'm not sure if it really counts as MMA would he just uses his school of Martial Art.

I'm aware of the history of Conde Koma teaching the Gracies who improved on the system. However, BJJ practitioners told me the top practitioners of BJJ were beating the Kodokan opponents in submission grappling. It was believable given the job is to wrap around them to prevent their throws. I never confirmed or rejected it, though. You have info on that?

> There are quite a small number of old martial art that's pretty decent still.

could you mention a few more? And distinguish if its possible which of those were generally practiced as highly competitive full contact sports (within their rulesets of forbidden strikes etc), and which mostly as a martial art?

>Tai chi, while a martial art, is viewed by many today as a spiritual breathing and balance exercise enjoyed by people of all ages, usually performed in slow motion in a quiet park instead of a fight ring.

Tai chi is a martial art in the same way yoga is a martial art. I'm kind of surprised this gets more than a shrug out of Chinese people. I would be surprised if a practitioner of one of the more practical Kung Fu styles could beat a good MMA fighter, but it would have been a lot closer.

Traditional martial arts can be quite effective if practiced in an effective manner. I've been to traditional schools where the pinnacle of training involved fighting each other bare knuckle.

As amusing as it would be to see a tai chi practitioner systematically progressing to bare knuckle tai chi sparring, perhaps their art could be more effective if it were trained more aggressively.

The belief in chi/qi power is deeply rooted in Chinese martial arts. Something that has no scientific basis.

The point here is not which fighting style is better, but that the tai chi master does not have any mystical or superhuman chi power he can draw upon to defeat his opponent. This is "the fraud" Xu Xiaodong wished to expose.

Pride cometh before the fall - Chinese people. If it is untested it doesn't work - martial arts. It's hard for someone to recognize a falsehood if his livelihood depends on it - martial arts schools.

Money attracts talent. There is relatively little money in traditional martial arts. No money results in little talent.

That MMA fighter looks fit. That martial arts guy does not and looks totally unskilled backing up. You have no power in your body and legs backing up like.

Those raised arms are completely worthless. Tensed muscles cannot react. They need to release tension first thus slowing down reaction time.

Lessons from my father who was in the army when soldiers liked to fight each other.

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14316091

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