Google Checkout Nightmare and the $126,000 phone call | Hacker News Reader

Google Checkout Nightmare and the $126,000 phone call

330 pointsprbuckley118 comments

I have been using Google Checkout as an option for making payments on my website. For the past two months I have jumped through every hoop they have asked me to, provide tracking numbers, banking details, vendor contacts, emailed back and forth with their customer support all with the understanding that my account was in process and my funds would be released soon. Well my account has grown to $126,000 and Google still won't pay out any of my funds!

I came to the end of my string after the 20ith something email when I got the message below. They have over $126,000 of my money and they won't even pick up phone to call me!

Hello P----,

Thank you for your reply. I understand you've shipped over 700 orders to your buyers. However, you've not sent us tracking numbers for those orders. Please send us proof of delivery (tracking numbers) so our specialists can initiate your payouts.

To clarify, we have contacted some of your buyer(s) and expect email confirmations once the goods are received.

In addition, at this time, we don't offer phone support for Google Checkout. We look forward to providing additional support options in the future. If you have specific questions, please reply to this email and we'll be happy to address them.

If you need immediate assistance, you can also visit the Merchant Help Center at https://checkout.google.com/support/sell or the Merchants Forum at http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/checkout-merchants?hl=en for frequently asked questions about Google Checkout.

Sincerely,

A------ The Google Checkout Team

View on HN

I see from prbuckley's profile that this is probably related to the DODOcase, a fashion accessory for tech folks which has six week delivery time. Ahh, pieces are falling into place: 700 orders shipped out of a few thousand, some customers complained (love that tech induced ADHD), Google froze the money.

While it isn't immediately helpful to you, a little bit of craftiness here will kill two birds with one stone. First, don't let orders queue. Customers, particularly ADHD tech types, are very sensitive to shipping delays. Instead, if you don't have the inventory and you're at your (low) maximum queue size, turn off orders on the website.

The key, though, is how you do that. I'd highlight the scarcity/exclusivity angle and play it to the hilt. Come on, you're selling I-can't-believe-its-not-moleskin handmade in San Fransisco straight to Mac owners. This is a luxury status item. Tell folks that if they didn't buy in time, they're simply not worthy of your magical goodness. Then three weeks later, you produce some more, and open orders again. You will be stampeded, and have to close again within a day. Folks who didn't hear about it in time, well, not everybody can be cool enough to own this. (Every time you open up orders, expect a burst of Twitter/links/etc, as folks try to get in and then lament that they missed it again or primp to their friends that their faith has been rewarded.)

(I'd suggest making the batches distinguishable in some way -- any way, heck, you could just say "Our artists whispered the words 'Made in the second batch' over these" and that would have the desired effect on your target customer. Also, charge more.)

>kill two birds with one stone. First, don't let orders queue. Customers, particularly ADHD tech types, are very sensitive to shipping delay

this is what I do with my decidedly unglamorous, price-competitive commodity service. It works fairly well. If I don't have space, I shut down ordering and have them email a 'preorder' address (I mail a link to everyone who emaled preorder as soon as I have space.)

sure, I turn away some customers, but my god, it's a lot easier than dealing with the customer service nightmare of having someone's money, and having no way to get them the product or service they paid for.

> (Every time you open up orders, expect a burst of Twitter/links/etc, as folks try to get in and then lament that they missed it again

this actually happens, even for my service, which targets the low end of the market.

this is what I do with my decidedly unglamorous, price-competitive commodity service. It works fairly well. If I don't have space, I shut down ordering and have them email a 'preorder' address

I didn't know your username here but after reading this I knew this had to be Prgmr! I wonder if this means it's a sadly uncommon technique... :-)

I'm just confused by the mismatch between your public page and the preorder page. You still have smaller accounts on the main page but all are available on the preorder one. Is this because you want to avoid a flood of new users or because people who order the smaller accounts have lower expectations and you'd prefer more of those?

The real problem is that my 'preorder' system sucks. I've got a link that I ask people not to use unless I email them to tell them it's okay. The idea is to give people who have emailed and asked a chance to sign up before I open ordering to the general public.

Obviously, the link remains the same, so there's nothing stopping someone from signing up for a bunch of domains I don't have available, or cutting in front of other people in line, but so far it hasn't been a problem; people on the waiting list get a day or two to sign up before I open up the main waiting list.

but, then you were asking why I treat ordering for large domains differently from small domains. When I open up orders for large domains, I sell out like /that/ - It doesn't take very many 4GiB sign ups to fill up a 32GiB server. I mean, I can handle a few right now, or, at least I could at that point, but I want to severely rate limit those until I have satisfied the demand for small servers and have a bit of extra capacity.

Right now, I'm on the edge of opening orders for large domains. (I've got a 16 core, 64GiB ram, 8 disk monster at the co-lo I'm configuring that will host only 1024MiB and up domains.) and I've got most of two 32GiB, 4 disk, 8 core boxes either online or in burn in ready for smaller domains.

I prioritize the small domains over the large domains for two reasons.

1. the small domains are more profitable per amount of hardware I buy ($4 per account plus $1 for every 64MiB ram.) and right now my bottleneck is capital for new hardware, so I'll serve the less capital intensive customers first.

2. I am still focused on the hobby user. At the moment, I think I can serve the needs of the enthusiast market better than the 'serious business' market. I'm trying to change that, but I'm not there yet. I do want to get there, so I do like some of the more adventurous businesses trying me out and giving me feedback, but I want to make sure that I don't serve the business market at the expense of my current enthusiast market. I want to keep that base.

> Customers, particularly ADHD tech types, are very sensitive to shipping delays.

Just to expand on this: very /very/ sensitive. However providing them an accurate date upfront is a great way to combat this, even if it is a week away. Adjust it accordingly and don't break your first promise to a new customer.

The moment the clock ticks over the 7th day (and I mean, they will wait /exactly/ 1 minute past 7 days for this). They will open up every support channel and complain loudly and demand a lot from you. It's just not worth the hassle!

Unfortunately these same ADHD types can't seem to read the webpage they're ordering from. It's said "shipping in 4-6 weeks" forever.

Unfortunately these same ADHD types can't seem to read the webpage they're ordering from.

This is a constant among all customers, everywhere. Even English teachers have the literacy sucked straight out of their eyeballs. Trust me.

(There are also pervasive trust issues, such that folks will ask me to confirm whether the three places in bold that say "Every card will be different" means that every card will be different or will every card be the same instead because that would be very inconvenient if it were true.)

Incidentally, something I have learned about customer psychology: no promise is so binding as the one the customer imagines you made them.

> Even English teachers have the literacy sucked straight out of their eyeballs. Trust me.

I was about to say the guy is being overly optimistic. Users can't bother to read a dialog box before pressing OK will never, ever, read, much less recall, a web page that contradicts their wishes.

OK but...4-6 weeks is a very long time. Customers are used to Amazon-style shipping. If you aren't going to ship in < a week, you should auth and not capture or have a mailing/waiting list. (We don't capture till the moment they get a tracking number.) Taking customer money to finance the current manufacture is a fools' game - all it ends with is pissed customers

Note that Authorize/paypal (and google?) have a limit on how long you can wait to refund (~90 days), and LIKEWISE, paypal (and google?) have a limit on how long you can wait before filing a claim (45 days iirc). Guess when you should ship packages after capturing? -Well- before 45 days.

AND WHILE IM AT IT...While customer literacy is always a bit questionable, if you're finding a lot of confusion about your shipping policies - you should probably change them! YES even if you think you are right. For example, we used to (like everyone else) say that USPS packages were not insured. Guess what? They'll chargeback anyways. So now all packages are insured at a very reasonable rate. We get no complaints about the extra $ - but we DID get complaints when packages were lost.

A small group of people are making an item by hand. If 4-6 weeks is too long for you, you shouldn't order the item. Sorry, not everything is sitting in a storehouse waiting for your order.

That's your decision as a customer, just like it's the sellers decision as a merchant. Complaining to google checkout because the terms of the deal that were explicitly stated are going according to plan is asinine. I don't care who has ADHD, grow the fuck up.

If it's the customer's responsibility to pay attention to the 4-6 week ship date, it's probably worthwhile for the seller to actually read the Google Checkout order management policies http://checkout.google.com/seller/policies.html which require you to capture funds within 7 days of authorization, and ship within 24 hours of capturing.

His "4-6 weeks to ship" appears to be in direct violation of the Google Checkout policy; you can't do fulfillment on that sort of timeframe if you want to bill with Google Checkout.

I'm surprised to learn Google is so anti-etsy. I guess he should get his money and then switch payment services.

Yep, Google Checkout is definitely the wrong choice for this business model. It is extremely unfriendly if you are not shipping within a week of an order being placed.

You are right...but it still doesnt matter who said what when, because Big Daddy Merchant will always side with the customer because Big Mommy Credit Card will always side with the customer.

Not sure if you have ever sold goods to customers but fairness isn't relevant and its a hard lesson I (and others) have had to learn - The only thing that matters is the customer must be happy and they become a customer the moment you take their money. This is why you should not take (capture) their money until you have something to ship them.

If there is a 45 day limit to file a claim with google, then yes, 4-6 weeks is too long.

Sorry, make the items first, then sell them. Or at least don't charge till you ship.

Commerce... Every hump above ground, is your master.

I agree. 4-6 weeks is too long these days. Unless I'm ordering a special order of parts on a slow boat from China, it shouldn't take that long.

I've had problems recently ordering motorcycle parts. Very few motorcycle parts places are all that professional. Many list things on their site as 'in stock' when they don't really have them, and they wait for 10 orders to queue up before putting through an order to their supplier. Then even after they have them in hand, they don't ship them out quickly. I'd pay much more for parts with Newegg/Amazon style shipping that I knew I could have tomorrow if I wanted them.

Hey Tibbon, unfortunately the motorcycle industry is about a decade and a half behind the rest of the eCommerce world ;)

We are working on changing that.

You wouldn't believe how hard the suppliers make it to get real inventory and catalog data.

Check out my business, linked in my profile.

What I'd pay good money for (in addition to what I mentioned prior) would be a part-for-part changelog for motorcycles between models along with better cross-compatibility information. As I'm sure you know, its difficult to tell immediately what parts are compatible with what bikes.

BTW- great looking site. I'm checking out now. Shoot me an email at my username at gmail if you've got a chance.

Hey tibbon, did not find see an email in your profile. Filling out the form at http://www.revzilla.com/customer-service will get to me though ;)

What you are looking is really tough. We are working on simply being able to browse products by fitment.

Unbelievably none of the part fitment data is readily available in a normalized fashion. There actually isn't even a standardized list of makes / models out there. Each retailer has to essentially build this database and keep it up to date manually, which is incredibly resource intensive.

Of course though this means there is opportunity to have because once you have built out this database, there is some defensibility built in.

I haven't looked at your web page, but living in a world saturated with advertising and lawyer-induced disclaimer/warning/contract pollution has caused me personally to develop a very powerful filter. If there's something on the top or sides in text or flashy colors or dancing animations: ignore. If there's some checkbox associated with terms and conditions that I have to check to get where I want to go: ignore the text and click the box. If you have "SHIPPING IN 4-6 WEEKS" in flashing red 28 point characters with a giant check box that I need to click before you will process my order, I guarantee you that the checkbox will be clicked without me actually reading and understanding that it will take 4-6 weeks for my item to arrive. You can thank the people who bombard me every day with this useless visual spam for the fact that I probably won't notice when you're trying to tell me something important about your service that is different from what I would naturally expect.

Surely if the page says that they're shipping on x date when the customer ordered and the person with this problem can prove that to google this is a non issue. Isn't the issue here that the person hasn't got any evidence of the shipping? If he could say to google "customers ordered on 28/04/2010 and it stated the item would be shipped on 28/07/2010" that would be enough?

for the record, i'm an ADHD tech type, an iPhone and iPad owner (and the sort to pre-order the iPad and stand in line for the original iPhone) and I knew perfectly well that my DodoCase (yes i ordered one) wasn't coming anytime soon. anyone who failed to note the expected shipping delay is a moron and deserves to spend a month and a half gnashing their teeth in frustration.

This approach has worked well for the folks at Monome, who make small runs (generally 100 to 200) of their flagship human interface devices a few times a year. They no longer take preorders, instead just publicizing the date and time at which orders will be open. Generally, they sell 100-200 devices within a week, and have several times sold out in under 15 minutes.

How about increasing the price as the stock diminishes, then return it to the "regular" price as stock catches up?

Another idea: instead of starting at $50, start at, say, $80 and boost the perceived value of the product too. Some people will still buy it, and while they flush the production, keep the price. As soon as demand diminishes, cut the price to $60 and now it's a $80 product at a 25% discount! Rinse and repeat ;) But as others said, don't take more time to deliver than promised.

Also, couldn't the revenue of the first ~500 sales be used to hire someone to help catch up with demand?

I love Google as much as the next guy, but how could a legitimate business that handles money not have a phone number to call to speak to a human to resolve this? It's absolutely ridiculous that they can threaten your livelihood and not have a human to talk to.

As bad as Paypal is, at least they offer live phone support. With the products I sell, Google Checkout and Paypal aren't options, so even with all the red tape you must go through to get a merchants account, I'd still rather do that than use Google Checkout/Paypal.

I would suggest it's not so much the availability of the phone call which is the problem, but the policy which requires that all of this information be submitted after some arbitrary dollar limit after all of these sales.

I am not sure waiting on hold, voice mail hell, and talking to a support person is really a superior customer experience. I generally prefer email support, if it is fast and you get a case that can be tracked. This is not to say that it's not bad customer support, because it is bad customer support, but I don't think having Google add a massive bank of phone support people somewhere is going to help.

Oh, you're totally right, but you know Google could implement a competent phone support system.

And I love correspondence by email as well, but it appears Google even goes to great lengths to avoid that (this case exempting).

It's a trade off - many of their products are free or low cost, in exchange they are keeping their costs down by not offering phone support.

Although I've found this irritating at times too, I overall think it's a great choice (and business decision) for Google.

They are essentially saying "we build products for smart people who don't need a lot of hand holding - if you need to talk to someone on the phone this might not be the product for you - we will still get feedback from customers and look out for big problems using forums and other technology solutions, but we try not to do call centers".

Google is TERRIBLE at this retail stuff. They are truly atrocious.

And while Paypal hooked up Canadian merchants almost on day one, years after starting Google's system still can't handle that (which is why Canadians and many other nationalities can't sell on the market).

Billing prior to shipping is rapidly becoming an unacceptable practice. If you are billing prior to shipping and then taking 6 weeks to fill the order then you need to take a serious look at how you are doing business.

If your orders always take a lengthy amount of time to fill I would suggest immediately sending a "your item is on back order and you will not be billed until it ships" email with a link to an order cancellation page. This should drastically cut down on the complaints and ease the mind of those consumers who think you have billed them and are scamming them into waiting until the billing complaint period has expired.

Excellent point. IME, billing upon shipment is the standard.

The only time I've been billed so far in advance of shipping was with Alienware in 2000. They were still a small company, so they actually called us on the phone to ask if they could bill now and ship in 6 weeks when the machine was ready. It was an unorthodox request, but we agreed. However, if they had billed us 6 weeks before shipping without asking we would have raised Cain.

That said, it is abundantly clear on your page that the item will not ship for 4-6 weeks.

Well, small craftspeople will need to bill before shipping so they can buy material. Sure, for generic crap that is massed produced in some factory, no billing before shipping. Wanting small run cool stuff and not wanting to be pre-billed are mutually exclusive.

> Wanting small run cool stuff and not wanting to be pre-billed are mutually exclusive.

Why should customers have to provide financing? If it's so small run it can be financed post-hoc by a few customer orders, then it's small enough that it can be financed by a few friends, too.

When something is being custom-made for you, it's entirely normal to pay at least part of the total up front. I could just as well ask you, why should friends have to provide financing, as you seem to suggest should be the norm?

Because very few craftpeople can come up with the initial capital (especially today) and, unlike full manufactures, the local material sellers don't generally do net-30 or net-60.

If you're a legitimate craftsman running a legitimate business you should have no problem getting 30 day credit from your suppliers. Sure if I'm ordering something bespoke that would be hard to sell to anyone else, I'll happily make a partial down-payment up front, but other than that, no.

Google Checkout specifically forbids this practice - according to their terms you have to ship within 24 hours of charging the client. I'm sorry to say but OP clearly breached their terms here.

Looks like your only course of action is to send them the tracking numbers (again?). For $126,000 it's worth taking the time to do it. You may find all the money in your bank account tomorrow.

Or litigate.

I think the point was he did that 19 times already.

frankly I'm shocked that Google still does such shitty customer support.

Sure Gmail, Search etc, I can understand that you can't supply customer service for a free service used by millions(many of whom will call you for the most trivial stuff).

But when you are dealing with people's money....surely you can afford $8-10 bucks an hour to give people proper customer support. It's not like google is some tiny startup which can be excused due to size, they are bigger than most corporations.

If you hold 6 figures of someone else's money, you better have a way for that person to talk to you.

you do /not/ want to deal with an $8-$10/hr phone support person. Phone support is an extremely stressful job with a high burn out rate. For that money, you are going to get someone who is completely unable to get a job elsewhere, and they will probably be new.

In fact, it may be illegal. There are a lot of very stringent laws relating to escrow, and that's essentially what Google is providing.

When I was leaving from Paypal for an issue like yours (they still have 300$ of my money) I investigated on Google Checkout and read a lot of horror stories like yours.

I wish you to solve this and after that I suggest you to switch to Fastspring. They have really excellent customer support, that becomes very valuable when a lot of money are involved.

What were the circumstances of your PayPal problems? The company I work for take a very large volume of payments for 'digital goods' through PayPal, and we haven't had any serious trouble (except for fraud through what we think phished PayPal accounts).

So, I'd recommend PayPal, given their services have been helping pay my salary for a number of years.

I changed my internet provider because I relocated. For some reason my IP appeared to be from another country (I had a mobile internet key). When I logged into my Paypal account, the system thought I was someone else and blocked my account to prevent stealing.

No problem with that for me, it's a security measure I can understand. I had to unlock the account and here is where the pain began.

Logging into my account to provide my information (ID, proof of residence, etc) I was always brought to a page asking me to verify the IBAN of my bank account. After entering it, an error was displayed, giving me a useless error code (something like error 1005) and with a short explanation "there was an internal problem, please try later". But trying later never worked, the error was always there, preventing me to unlock my account.

I started writing the support. They answered that I had to fill in my information to unlock my account. I told them that I could not do it because there was an internal error. They kept answering that I had to fill in my information to unlock it. This went on for a couple of weeks. What really pissed me off was that every time they answered (the support guy was always different), they always told me the same things, like they were not reading my emails at all.

I tried to call the support phone number for my country. There was an automatic voice with some steps to follow, including getting some authentication code for my account from the website. After all that, the automatic voice reminded me that my account was locked, as if I did not know that already. I never managed to speak with someone in person. That was the last drop, since loosing those 300$ would not have ruined my life, I switched to Fastspring never to come back. I've been really happy with them.

After I while I realized that I could have tried to call the US phone number. But I already switched, so I didn't care.

Ah that sounds unfortunate. I certainly have given up for similar sums in the past (not on payment gateways, but on things like tickets to cancelled gigs and junk).

The honest truth is that we stick with PayPal because we're an Australian company who, as a business decision, take US dollars for our products. Setting up a merchant account in Australia that can take US dollars seems to be unheard of and practically impossible.

Though I'm sure you've heard of the Internet Filter and more recently the full recording of internet history at ISP levels for all customers. Australia has some catching up to do in general in regards to the internet and internet business.

I had similar problems when I had someone from Vietnam working for me (she had worked with me here at a larger corp, then went home and worked for me.) I was able to break through to a human on the US phone number, got the account unlocked, and then made sure my Vietnamese employee did everything through a NAT/VPN setup that gave her one of my US IP addresses.

The phone support wait was long, but I haven't really had any trouble since. Of course, I don't really let money build up in my paypal account; I'll spend it on hardware or move it to my bank account. it's pretty rare there's more than ten grand in paypal, and usually it's more like one to three grand, so that might make it easier.

I've also had problems with paypal, due to the fact I needed three accounts for three separate businesses/ partnerships. Even though I formed separate LLCs, Paypal apparently can only link even business accounts to a specific person, so when I had two accounts based off my name it started causing no end of problems. The account would get locked, I'd call and have it fixed, then it would lock up again. They were friendly, but it was definitely a pain.

I recommend paypal also. They answer the phone. They seem to take it seriously. No way I'd go with G on this until they get better customer service. In fact, I'll be looking into advertising options for my next product, because they are too capricious and will not take my issues seriously.

I had a similar issue w/ Paypal, but one phone call w/ a very nice lady later, everthing was fixed.

Horror stories where people don't read the ToS and then complain loudly on the internet because they aren't abiding by them?

Get a letter sent from an established Mountain View-based law firm, i.e. one that would be known to Google's legal department. It'll cost you some bucks but it beats going out of business.

Wonder why Google needs to contact your buyers for confirmation? I thought they are the middle man should be transparent in the purchase process.

Rather wondering why google is allowed to do that ... As you said, they're just the payment processor, you shouldn't be obligated to show them proof that the goods you were paid for were actually delivered

Well, the hard part about paypal and probably google checkout isn't processing payments, it's managing fraud - see Max Levchin's interview in the (very good, imho) "Founders at Work" book.

So I'm not surprised google has to do potentally damaging things to somehow make it all work.

The strange part to me is that they don't require and automate this buyer contact info & tracking number gathering from the start.

This is all part of anti-money laundering provisions introduced in the past few years. As the carrier they are obligated and liable.

For the record, it states in their Seller Policy ( https://checkout.google.com/seller/policies.html ) that you have to capture within 7 days and ship within 24 hours of capture.

I learned this the hard way when I presold books through Google Checkout. I mistakenly read the UK ToS which, unlike the US ToS, allowed preorders. Once we'd amassed more than $40k, they contacted us via email to let us know we had run afoul of their policy.

I pleaded with them to give me time to fulfill the orders, and to their credit, they did. They kept 100% of the funds until I sent them notification that I had shipped every package.

Nowadays, even though I only use them to process a couple thousand dollars per month, they are perpetually sitting on $1,000 of my funds as a protection against chargebacks/fraud. I was told that if I wanted that money, I had to close my account and wait 3 months for the funds to "clear". I've asked for the cap to be lowered, but they never bothered to respond.

Not sure if you saw the post on hacker news entitled: "Need to process payments?" -- http://ycombinator.posterous.com/need-to-process-payments, but you might wanna contact them once you get everything else sorted out. Good luck!

What would you do if you were me?

Make this a PR issue for Google. It is the most effective way to get effective, timely customer support from them.

A blog post with judicious images of their boilerplate emails, incredulity about how they seem to repeat the same thing over and over, a timeline, a punchy title (I kind of like "Grand Theft Google" but you could dial down the tabloidism several notches and still be effective), and seeding with a tech audience will work pretty well.

Agreed. You need to prove that you have responded and are beyond reproach. Otherwise, it didn't happen. That's a lot of money, so ... what the hell are you doing posting your complaint here?!?

This is a pretty good testbed for making it a Google PR problem; several Google employees are HN members; and the crowd here is Google Checkout's prime demographic. I'd say he's doing a lot of good posting his complaint here, both for himself and for future Google Checkout victims.

A complaint posted in HN is pretty good publicity (and defamation for Google). I'm sure they recognize how powerful HN can influence opinion.

I'm sure GigaOm or TechCrunch would love to hear your story.

It is the only way to get virtually any customer support from them.

^^fixed that for you.

We have one of these threads it seems every week. Across their entire range of products, Google is pretty hostile to their users the second something doesn't work correctly. The only way to get any help besides their bullshit automated responses or forums is to have enough web traffic to embarrass them into helping you. Eventually Matt Cutts or someone else will swoop in, but if you can't find the right place to publicly bitch or don't have enough traffic, they clearly don't give a shit less.

I've seen it personally enough so that I'm no longer integrating any more of their products into my life. What happens if eg you get google voice, give everyone you know your google phone number, and something breaks? I don't run duckduckgo nor do I post on the front page of techcrunch so I will simply be SOL...

I shot Matt Cutts a reply on Twitter. He has responded to friends in the past and forwarded complaints to the proper people. Can't believe how horrible Google customer service is, the only way to get real service is find someone on the inside and hope they notify someone else for you.

I have customers who spend $200k+/yr on adwords (pennies in Google's eyes) and barely get their own adwords rep.

This has happened before, will happen again, and will keep happening until we stop treating Google like their charming eccentricity and market dominance means they can do whatever the heck they want with our businesses.

Agree with the PR nightmare thing above, but I'd take it a step further.

I'd actually turn my whole front page into a giant protest, and bank on my customers (roughly 2,500 of them if I did my math right) to help with the cause. I'd be up front with customers about my issues with Google Checkout, show a timeline, efforts made, and documentation (what you CAN show).

If you're truly in the right, and you truly jumped the hoops in proper form, then you have the goodwill and Google's cooperation to gain. Keeping in mind that your customers are iPad users, I believe they've shown in the past that they can be a pretty supportive and loud group of people.

Alternatively, not knowing what you've factored in as costs and how thin your margins are, I would look into authorize.net, braintree, and that beta program that was on here yesterday as other options for taking in payment. It looks like with the volume you're likely to do, it will pay to just absorb 2-3% in costs than deal with this issue constantly.

If I was at my wits end, I would start calling in to Google corporate until I got someone who could actually help. Don't get irate, be pleasant. If you must talk lawsuit, do so without threatening. Also, re-read the fine print of the Google checkout contract before calling.

Keep doing what they're asking you to do until you have the money. In the meantime, find an alternative way of taking payments.

Well, broadly speaking, there are two options: a) continue to jump through all the hoops, and show patience, or b) lawyer up.

The second will definitely cost you more, but you may see the money sooner.

Only you can do the cost/benefit analysis.

I would do the following:

1. Send them a letter with the tracking numbers.

2. Make the customer service rep give me his direct e-mail and phone number (extension) so I can send a copy of all the tracking numbers and keep calling him back to ask for an update, every single day.

3. I'd buy a plane ticket to California and visit them in their office, face to face, with all the proof inside an envelope with me.

This is 120k we're talking about, I'd do quite a lot to get all my money. Currently I am dealing with a company that owes me 5k estimated, maybe a bit more, and they're paying me $300 a week in small amounts and it's really pissing me off. I've already moved to a new company to work with, that is reliable and have been so far, but I really hate when shit like this happens.

Best of luck to ya :)

Might be too late but I just forwarded this news item to some people in Google. Hopefully they can shake things up a bit.

Also, shoot me an e-mail (in the profile). I know a couple unemployed architects in the SF area that used to work in woodshops. They might be able to help out.

I would simply send them the tracking numbers for those orders.

Is it something that is hard to do ?

Write a detailed blog post and submit it to Reddit with a catchy headline. Google will fix it before the end of the week.

Totally.

http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2010/06/my-gmail-is-fast...

11 hours later and its on the reddit frontpage. If this solves the issue it is ridiculous.

Politely keep doing what they've asked, but have your lawyer draft a letter, and prepare to send it when you've hit the frustration point. If that doesn't solve the problem, prepare to sue.

At your volume of sales, you really need to setup a merchant account for your business to process payments. Using middlemen like Google Checkout and Paypal and you are going to fall into problems.

I can help you get setup with your own MID with a liberal acquiring bank, send me an email ofcmanagement at gmail if you're interested.

$126,000 in two months...good work!

Given that he's shipping physical goods, it's difficult to imagine that it's all profit. He could well be counting on those funds to finance his supply chain, which could leave his business dead in the water if he can't get access to the money he's earned.

You are dead on. This is really hurting my business cash flow. I am shipping product that I am not getting compensated for. Google is making me the monkey in the middle.

To be fair it does look like you're breaching Google Checkout's terms:

https://checkout.google.com/seller/policies.html

'You may not capture funds more than 24 hours before you fulfill the order. Fulfill means you have shipped the physical product, delivered the digital content, or performed the service.'

This reminds me of some paypal horror stories... not good. The approach patio11 suggests is the best one i guess.

We had problems with PayPal as well but at least they called us on the phone and after some hair pulling we were able to come to a reasonable resolution. Google Checkout just stone walls you.

Man, when people are comparing your customer service unfavorably to PayPal, you're really in trouble.

Paypal is to customer service as Microsoft is to security: they appear to have gotten religion after their feet were held to the fire, for all the good that that does them in the tech community's eyes.

For what its worth, I've sold something like $50,000 on Paypal and the handful of issues I've had were resolved with quiet professionalism and reasonable timeliness, in much the same manner that I'd expect from e.g. a bank.

Paypal might be OK from a seller's perspective, but it's pretty abysmal from a customer's perspective.

A couple months ago I was in a financial pinch and one of my bank accounts was overdrawn, while another one had funds in it. I printed a shipping label using Paypal, making sure to use the correct account. When I printed a second shipping label, I assumed it would use the most-recently-used account (the last 4 digits differed by only one number), but it instead defaulted to the overdrawn account.

Only a few minutes later, I noticed this and immediately called Paypal. They said that it was too late to cancel or assign a new source for the payment, even though I told them the payment would be rejected by my bank. I deposited from my other bank account to my Paypal account enough money to cover the charge, and they still couldn't cancel the debit to my overdrawn account. A few days later, I received an email message:

Your bank has declined the funds transfer because your account did not have sufficient funds available. We will automatically re-attempt this transfer in 3 business days. Please fund your bank account immediately to ensure this transaction can be completed.

What?! I already had enough money in my Paypal account to cover the charge, but they instead chose to recharge the same account in 3 days? I called them again as soon as I received this email, but they said they could not change this transaction, that it was their policy and that the process could not be altered. Three days later, lo and behold, it was declined again, and they finally took the money from my Paypal account. Meanwhile, my bank charged me $70 for the two declined charges, all for an under-$4 shipping label.

I will be avoiding Paypal in the future. That kind of inflexibility, poor service, and bad policy combines for an awful customer experience.

Best of luck to YCombinator's newest entry, then ( http://ycombinator.posterous.com/need-to-process-payments# ).

I guess it's a market that needs a shakeup.

If said payment processor serves as a Paypal replacement, I'll sign up in a heartbeat.

Edit: apgwoz also posted the link. The comments are over here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1430135

So you say you've sent them tracking numbers, and they say you haven't? Are they lying, mistaken, or what?

I think it is a misinformed customer support person.

Google checkout sounds worse than Paypal. I have both and right now have my own nightmare with them Customer claimed empty box sent for heavy item said wanted exchange, sent back replacement now claims wrong size. I used to call Paypal automotons but at least they people that you can talk to, it's so obvious what is going on. They say resolved then say customer not happy. Con artist is not happy. I am sure all the conartists know that it's a sure way to rip off people. !2 years in business no problems online with empty box, google checkout 6 months and first of a few problems with con artists, this by far the worst.

I am sure in your case , the ones that are con artists that have the request of receipt will say they did not receive. I guess what you should do is update all the tracking in the google checkout system to avoid any problems. Gee and I thought they were great at ebay live 2007 in Boston but they seem to be slipping down on the job. Ebay is now the payment king, bonanzle the best site for selling and google should stay with search. Creativity in business solutions is not their forte, neither are phones i guess. Losing steam and unhappy customers virally transmitted info people spreads fast..Paypal has lawsuits due to their way, I think there is no due process on google checkout either. They had better be careful and they definitely need a customer service line. I don't know how they think that they can operate without one!.

Google Checkout is terrible for pre-orders and things that do not ship within 5-7 days of authorization of card. I would definitely recommend NOT using Google Checkout for this type of business model, some research might have saved you the frustration.

I believe there might also be an issue with the legality of charging actually charging for the purchase prior to shipment. Most merchants will typically authorize the card, and then issue the capture transaction once a tracking number is availability.

This then will lead you to to the next issue that will be especially painful to deal with using Google Checkout: bad authorizations.

We have had scenarios where we authorized a card on a Tuesday, found out the item was backordered for a week and thus did not ship the item and attemp to issue the capture transaction until 8 days later.

With Google Checkout, a re-auth is needed after 7 days. Unfortunately you do not find out the re-auth failed until AFTER you have shipped the items (and then attempted to capture funds on the order). You are then out of luck on capturing any funds if you cannot contact the customer and get another form of payment.

Happy to discuss this further if you would like some advice.

Not related directly to the issue; but I have seen another issue that I wouldn't imagine being there in any payment processor. The ability to see all subscriptions in one place. The only way to stop google apps from charging my checkout account is to disable auto renew in the dashboard (won't help if I helped a friend buy a domain because he didn't have a credit card) or to remove the payment methods associated.

Aren't there any legal means to fight this battle? Consumer laws and other ways of enforcement. Perhaps grellas has a low-down on this?

The whole Aaron Greenspan mess (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-i-sued-goo...) does not put me at ease.

One more thing, you might want to check if there is any "beta" label on Google Checkout sites.

I recognize this e-mail drafting scheme well. I also had very mixed experiences with Google Checkout. I finally found a workaround, but will try to avoid them in the future. Their 'support' is atrocious.

Try suing them in a small claims court - it's worked at least once before:

In the end, printed on a baby blue sheet of paper by the clerk's aging dot matrix printer, the judgment was actually entered for $761.00 total, due to the $40.00 court costs. I couldn't help but to smile in front of the judge.

"But it's not fair!" Google's paralegal protested. "What if everyone whose account was canceled sued Google?"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-i-sued-goo...

(IANAL, etc)

Worked temporarily. Google appealed that case and won: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-google-bot...

small claims has a limit of $5,000 or so; you'd have to go to a real court for this kind of scratch.

Why not take one or two of the oldest payments Google is withholding and file a small claims lawsuit against Google as a test? If the courts allow the case to proceed and you win, then just batch up your claims and over time you can get all your money.

You will just have to be careful not to exceed the small claims lawsuit money award limits. Name Larry, Sergey, and Eric as the defendants if you really want to get Google's attention. Also, after you hit Google once or twice with a suit, they will probably get you all of your money quickly.

sorry I didn't read ALL the posts (so sorry for redundant information) but we have dealt with some of these woes before. Although PayPal does have some crazy requirements for PCI compliance and so fourth using PayPal would solve two of your problems;

1 - requiring tracking numbers for the release of funds 2- Being able to reach someone by phone. We have a direct number for a real human at PayPal, he is always the same human and knows who we are.

PayPal will require some reserves for charge-backs (depending on your volume & historical charge back rates)

We run millions of dollars with PayPal and aside from reserves it has been a pretty great experience. To answer an earlier question of why not a traditional merchant account, no one has been able to beat the MPF to date.

We have also ran pre-orders for items that did not ship for 2-3 months, clearly stated the ship date and had a extraordinary amount of complaints to our support staff, BBB, and even charge backs before the ship date. People do not read. When ordering my DODOcase even being one of the ADHD apple fanboys in question I clearly understood when I could expect the item to arrive (still not at the finish line yet). I feel your pain though, nothing is worse then doing everything right and having a successful product only to have all your funds tied up with the bank, good luck.... Can i have my DODOcase now?

Is google the worst company with support system? this is not the only product that google has no phone or live person that you can speak to.

Even their Google apps for businesses only has a support form http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/support.html that is really bad.

Yeah, no phone support is a fail. Use amazon or paypal. Mind you, I've heard similar stories from both of those.

With that volume of money, why not use a credit card merchant account? I use one, and I've always found the CC company to be easy to get on the phone and eager to help me with any issues.

Does anyone know "moneybookers" horror stories? I think this service is unencumbered with overprotective US consumer rights.

Moneybookers has $950 of my money (not a lot, I know, but it is to me) and is holding it hostage. I'm thoroughly displeased with them, in comparison to some others I know who have had no problems with them, even when dealing in much larger amounts of money than I am.

Google may always be a textbox and button company. If you read their message board for adwords you'll find seriously disgruntled people who've SPENT hundreds of thousands of dollars on advertising and still can't get anyone on the phone. That's SPENT...as in less than one year, spend 100K+...no phone support.

You can't even BUY support from Google. Basically, go ahead and use their free stuff, but don't do business with Google if you can help it.

Obviously, their advertising scales so well, it's hard not to...

On the other hand, my AdSense account was blocked for reasons only known to them without much recourse beyond asking (once and only once) "are you sure?" to what they replied "positive".

In the end it was good. I spread my banners across more partners and net a good deal more through them than I ever got through Google.

Still, I wish I had that cleared up. It's certainly annoying to be banned from a market for unknown reasons.

So you made $126,000 and your still using Google Checkout. I call bull shit! Most people get a merchant account from their bank and then they don't get screwed.

If this is true then I think you should probably send out a nice letter to your customers and tell them that your refunding their money because Google is causing you grief, link to a blog post explaining the situation in details, and ask them to pay again via your new merchant provider. I think that if people saw the refund on their statement, then they'd pay again. Then you'd get something.

I think the lesson here is that you should never rely on a service / company who won't put any effort into customer support. I thought this was common sense?

He didn't actually get the money _to_ refund them.

One word, lawsuit.

Yes, let's not consider suing somebody who owes us over a $100k. Anybody have reasonable alternatives other than downvotes?

so, sorry, sir, but we cannot find any proof the packages were delivered using Google Maps Street View. Therefore, they could not have been delivered.

we do offer information to help you through your situation. just search on the terms "bankrupt screwed over"

As frustrating as this is for the author, we only have one side of the story, this is not hacker news, it's simple bitching. Perhaps it has a place on reddit, but not here. And the headline is deceptive.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com