Why are crime victims being jailed? | Hacker News Reader

Why are crime victims being jailed?

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As someone who is 1)Rich(relatively) 2)White, and who has been falsely accused, and harassed by the police for idiotic reasons, I have an enormous amount of sympathy. I went through something similar a couple of times in my life where I had to fight to prove my innocence against incompetent and frankly really stupid police officers who where in my opinion, mainly big assholes who just wanted to bully people. I can say that had I not been pretty wealthy and able to afford lawyers I am pretty sure they would have fucked me over. Once something like that happens to you, you start to sort of understand how someone less fortunate can really get screwed over pretty easily.

Same here. I was once assaulted by a police officer on the property where my father worked. The cop was employed as security and did not wear his badge openly. He was dressed in civilian clothes with his badge on his belt, behind his back. He verbally accosted me on a visit to my dad's place of work. Not knowing he was a cop I let him know where to go. He grabbed me, bent my arm behind my back and shoved me face first through hard metal doors. My father was livid and got in on the argument, on my side. I had bruises all over my face, neck and arms. I filed a complaint against him, but a week later he was part of the largest cocaine bust in my town's history. As a result he was beyond reproach. I've got a few other encounters like this, though not as bad. Not all cops I've run in with were bad, some were more than reasonable, but the bad encounters outweigh the good at least 3 to 1. Give a power tripping person a badge and a gun, hide them behind the blue code and the average civilian has little to no recourse.

It is interesting, almost everyone I know has a story where some cop abused there authority. When people start sharing their stories, it is always amazing to me how many people chime in with similar encounters. Until it happens to you, people don't realize how frightening and scaring it is. I completely feel for you. I was physically ill for weeks after my encounter. I believe that it is a problem that is far more pervasive than maybe is realized.

I am in a somewhat similar situation. The article talks of Mitchell fearing for his life due to police unwilling to protect him. I had a nasty string of events happen to me that also left me fearing for my life and unemployed (threatened after I quit my job... I quit twice, first time they nearly doubled my salary, second they said: 'you are going to not be able to keep a job ever again.' Months later at my new job I started receiving violent threats, then people violently broke into my office--nothing was stolen.) I notified the police, I asked them if they could look into--there were video cameras, and they could see who broke in and chased after me as I hurried out the emergency exit. They didnt investigate anything, or even record the break in as a crime AFAIK. I was then told I was being be fired for the break in occurring after I was told not to report it, but said that I did anyways ("this has nothing to do with you performance here in your job duties"). both were relatively small companies.

There is a lot more that was happening at that time, and it went from concerning to blatant to surreal. I was stalked/followed home by unsavoury-looking people. Men were knocking on my door speaking inaudibly and sometimes in Spanish. My tires had oil smeared all over them one time and had been overinflated. This is not inclusive of everything that happened. I called the police repeatedly and nobody did anything. I dont know how to get these concerns raised to anyone that cares.

Eventually I left the country and have been living abroad a couple of years since then. I am not really sure what to do without a job reference as a mid career male, but I get by in my days by meeting so many nice people and going to such beautiful places and trying to forget about what happened. I dont know if I can find a real job again and I think my life will be basically over if I cant. Im thankful for everything, but to be honest, I want to work again and am not sure how to recover from this in terms of career.

I havent talked about this with anyone, but when I read this I thought I'd chime in. Enforcing law and peace with prudence is important enough that when it isn't done right, people like Mitchell and I experience our lives are transformed and we are unemploued. In the meantime, terrible people are enabled. Police in my case and in the story's may have just been too busy, or misunderstanding, or overwhelmed--I dont know what the problem is, but the outcomen is awful.

It's difficult to say this in a polite way, but I think you should get an appointment at a psychiatrist and get assessed for schizophrenia. What you describe, particularly the "blatant to surreal" bit, sounds very much like potential symptoms: I'm not saying you're making this up, but that there's a very real possibility that your brain is connecting dots that it shouldn't be.

Haha I wish I was just crazy. I agree that it sounds unlikely. I also understand the temptation you express: to live in a world where the simplest and most easy-to-live-with answer is the right one: Ian Murdock "just snapped and went crazy." Snowden "just snapped and turned against his nation." "Poor minorities resort to violence to solve problems, employed upper-middle class don't ever engage that sort of thing." We don't like to live with uncomfortable truths. Unfortunately for me, I never did anything of such significance to humanity as those two--so reasonable and inquisitive minds will be relatively unlikely to look at my situation in detail.

Anyways there's a lot more to the story. I had a pretty bad reputation due to getting made a scapegoat for some things that werent my fault. I stood my ground which blew up in my face as multiple higher-ups doubled down. So I quit and their response was to close to doubled my salary, gave me a promotion, an apology, and lots of nice perks like use of a company apartment, expenses paid, etc, and asked I please just forget it ever happened. It's a long story and I could have made my life a lot easier if I just kept my head low, blended in and shut up.

Nevertheless, you should still see a shrink. If you don't like the stigma of mental illness then see one who calls themselves a 'life coach' and say you're going for advice on improving your life.

Alright, well we have two possibilities here. In the case that you are wrong, you condemn a victim to a slanderous label while enabling aggressors. In the case that you are right, and given what limited information is available here, it could appear a prescient response, but the other side of that is perhaps it would be quick-to-judge at this point--which is coming across as off-putting.

Sometimes you may think you know the answer to what someone else is going through, just by having a quick listen to what they have to say. What I would say to that: It's better to be thankful you have never experienced something like this.

That said, it isn't bad for me at the moment. If this had never happened I would still be working with boring business logic software in a company run by salesman, buying things I didnt need and wasting my 20s.

Anywaya, to be honest, it is alleviating to imagine this as all a psychotic imagination. The moral and egotistical implications and questions for me, in that case, feel much easier to answer. Not to mention--I don't have to worry about a nasty person seeking a nasty deeds.

I understand that surreal feeling, I had that a little bit for a while after because you suddenly just realize how vulnerable you actually are. I would not in any way pass judgment on someone else's state of mind based on only a post but for it was helpful to have someone to talk to about it (besides an attorney). For me it was my Dad, but if you don't have someone like that it is not a bad idea to seek out someone.

I hear you. It's apparent how I am coming across. If something like this happens, someone must be crazy and it's easy to look at the person suffering and say, that must be it.

I don't have someone like that, nor have I ever spoken with an attorney. I would be very interested in speaking with a psychiatrist, if for any reason, just to rule out the possibility, and who knows, but at this point in my financial life, that's not really in the cards.

Note that if you live near a university there's a decent chance they have a public-facing clinic as part of their psychology school that charges on a sliding scale

Is there anything other than the use of surreal, and the general unlikeliness of this happening, that is giving this impression?

People following you, knocking on your door, speaking Spanish (which I presume you/your ex-employer don't) are both all trademark symptoms and things that a company that fired you is extremely unlikely to do (because why would they?).

Seriously, please go see a shrink. If I'm completely wrong, the cost is pretty low, but if there is something to this, it may change your life.

I will. I'll have to figure out how to do it while abroad, and with funds being tight it might be a challenge, but it should be possible.

Unfortunately, I really am 100% sure it's not the case that it's imaginative--there's too much evidence. I.E. at a company after-party I quipped about something unethical/problematic one enployee who used to bully me (before I first quit) did. He started throwing bottle caps at strangers and pointing at me... Another employee witnessed this.

Some in the company joke about their political and criminal ties. Was about 150 people company and management team of about 25 was all fired... Apparently for this.

They're all sales people with personal connections who got into a company and nearly drove it into the ground before parent company kicked out all of management, but after I got bullied I fought back against some of the worthless underlings that remained. Egos hurt. Careers at stake. Etc.

Anyways while I have no doubt in my mind the company did not explicitly engage in this (it wouldnt serve any benefit to the company); likely the above mentioned person there engaged this in his free time--it wouldnt be hard to drive across town with a bunch of money and offer a job to disenfranchised youths.

While I can personally guarantee it was real, and I will see a psychiatrist anyways, to rule this out... If it was somehow hallucinations, then it all ended when I left anyways, and it never presented associated symptoms in my life. So the problem I am more concerned about is figuring out how to approach employers at this point, establish myself somewhere in the States I wont be homeless (you need proof of income to rent somewhere), and start getting productive again.

Unfortunately, I'm really afraid this does, indeed, all sound crazy, and it only detracts from getting help to solve my problems.

i feel that anyone with authority will exercise abuse at some point. I believe this is why the US has 3 branches of government. Abuse, unfortunately, is human nature.

Thanks. I have a few friends, all on the conservative end of the spectrum, that claim I brought it upon myself by not trying to fit in. I was the weird kid in my town, not bad, just not a cowboy like the majority of the people in the deep south. As if that was excuse enough to warrant police abuse.

Cops are not trained to be "reasonable" they are trained to use overwhelming sudden force. This is for their own safety, because most people they deal with in close encounters are also not reasonable people.

Then they are trained wrong. It is imperative that cops--the people who patrol the neighborhoods our children play in, who are the first response to a (usually harmless) mentally ill person violating social norms, who are the recourse of overwhelmed parents with unruly children--it is imperative that cops are approachable, amicable, empathic, and reasonable.

Most cops never have any reason to fire their weapon. Being a police officer is a relatively safe profession. Everyone they have contact with has legal rights.

I'm afraid you have been given wrong information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

I have dealt with cops on a lot of occasions, some of the major ones being a fortunately non-fatal OD of two of my friends, getting my door kicked in, and one arrest for sneaking into a building. I also am a white guy from an upper-middle class background.

The OD was a difficult moment. I found my friends and called it in. Both of them lived, which I am of course grateful for, but afterwards the cops spent a lot of time yelling at the group of guys who had been obliviously smoking weed downstairs, pressuring them to snitch on the dealer, and even threatening to charge us with possession (which actually can happen).

The raid was mostly as expected. The house was not too torn up or anything. The cops actually claim it was a mistake, that they were looking for someone who had lived in my apartment over a year before. I'm not so sure about that though. They didn't find any drugs, which I believe they were looking for. They confiscated a bunch of electronics from my roommates and I and it took about 2 weeks to get those back. The cops were friendly during this process. I also know one other person, a female family friend, who was completely innocent and got mistakenly raided in the middle of the night.

The building one I was just too curious. At night a friend and I snuck into a rubber plant that was under renovation. We didn't break or steal anything. I was the younger of the two, at 13 and 15 respectively. The cops had guns drawn (which I don't fault them for) and gave us a couple good knees to the stomach during the arrest. The very weird part was a cop holding down my friend and joking "did you piss yourself?" (he had not) while grabbing his crotch for easily 3-4 seconds.

The above are easily dismissed as being related to my choices in life, granted. But I've also had other random incidents. A cop pointed a gun at me because I was walking through a large college campus and stumbled into some incident where police looking for someone. Another time, my friend was the designated driver one night and, being unfamiliar with my car, accidentally flashed the brights at a police car going the opposite direction -- the cops did a burnout, came speeding up behind and slammed on the breaks, screamed at us, then peeled out in a cloud of smoke! And yet another time, looking out the front window of a law-abiding friend's house, we saw a swat team lining up to storm the neighbor's house, which had at least three or four young kids living there -- we went downstairs.

One a lighter note, a police helicopter shined its spotlight directly on me while I was sitting on my porch alone, at night, on a high dose of LSD. That was awesome and surreal, but a little dystopian.

The cops had guns drawn (which I don't fault them for)

This is one of my pet peeves, I believe lethal force should basically never be used by law enforcement (at least normal one, outside of SWAT or whatever edge case).

If I ever become rich, I'm going to invest in some nonlethal weapon with similar range and accuracy and disablement power as lethal ones, I guess current tasers aren't good enough for law enforcement to feel safe in an escalating situation (and the U.S. has plenty of lethal weapons going around). That would also make me feel better if people feel the need to go around armed (which is a very US-only thing, doesn't happen in Europe and Latin America and Asia as far as I know).

> I can say that had I not been pretty wealthy and able to afford lawyers I am pretty sure they would have fucked me over.

This is one part of the justice system which needs fixing. I prefer the system of legal aid like they do in Germany rather than a public defender .

As bad as your case is, this story seems to have very little to do with the police outside of them being tasked to enforce a court order. It sounds like these orders are being requested by the DA and granted by judges. It is also about laws that may be debatable in merit but are most likely abused in practice. (We can only say "most likely" because the only records available are difficult to process to judge how often these orders are used, never mind whether their use can be construed as legitimate.)

> The Orleans Parish DA's office was forced to apologise last week after it was found to have been issuing so-called "DA's subpoenas" - a fake subpoena which warns witnesses that they could be fined or sent to jail for ignoring it, despite having no such authority. A spokesman for the DA said the office would immediately stop issuing the notices.

At what point can a DA be criminally charged? Does that ever happen? Who oversees state's attorneys?

It seems clear in this case that the judge felt the DA misrepresented the reasons for their warrant at best, and lied at worst. Sounds like it could be criminal

IANAL but I know there's laws against impersonating a law-enforcement officer; I would not be surprised if falsely asserting authority of law with fake court orders / legal processes is similarly criminalised.

The most -ahem- interesting takeaway from this story IMHO is that Orleans Parish DA Cannizzaro describes being jailed as a material witness as an inconvenience.

If I were a local judge, I'd love the opportunity to lock him up for a few weeks just to have that 'inconvenience' metered out on himself.

The FBI should investigate. The dealer probably bribed the DA to jail the witness to intimidate him.

Another reason to stay silent. Never talk to the police and they won't have a reason, most of the time, to issue one of these warrants. And if they do, still don't talk. Fuck a system that puts its victims in jail. This is not justice. These prosecutors' jobs should not be made easier. Justice would be these prosecutors landing in gen pop. Yeah, it's dangerous.

I live in a small town but have been pulled over in the neighboring states and numerous towns in the last few months.

Never thought I'd say this; but as someone who has had problems w/ cops in the past; they seem to be MUCH more courteous. I think it is a combo of things; I am older, have been out of trouble a few years; etc. I am white (which helps) but having 5+ positive experiences-- 1 of which could've been serious; cops have been great!

Idk if there has been a push to retrain them or policy changes but I have been impressed.

It's weird never having a positive experience until recently; and I am still very on guard; but not all police are the enemy. Prosecutors like that; bad cops-- they exist and I would never be complacent around them-- but there are people working in a broken system who are good and helpful. My $0.02

The problem is we have no way to know if they are the "good ones" or the "bad ones" until after the fact so unless you feel you have no alternative, it is better to avoid contact with them.

He was shot. Surely it's reasonable to go to the police looking for justice. Are you suggesting letting gang members get away with crime?

If it means his life gets ruined because he loses his job, and a ton of other awful cascade effects, then yes, he shouldnt come forward.

These types of warrants are incredibly, incredibly counterproductive for justice.

On the other hand, the gang leader was in the same prison as he, presumably because somebody spoke to the cops. The alternative to that would be that the gang leader was the authority around that town and there would be a ton of other awful cascade effects from that scenario too.

It was not obvious that talking to the cops in this case would end up with him later being arrested at work and losing his job. Even the judge, once having the situation explained to her, released him and now expects a higher standard of evidence from the DA who clearly overstated the situation according to the social norms we expect. I'm glad that there are people who stand up for what is wrong, even when they personally suffer as a result. Rosa Parks was fired too!

Never mind that he had already witnessed against the shooter, and after that felt his life was in danger because he felt the police was not doing enough to ensure his safety.

Meaning that the only thing the police and DA worried about in this instance was to get the gang leader in jail, not what effect their means and methods had on their witness.

It's not reasonable for the police to come to me looking for a witness. That's all I'm saying. If that leads to gang members getting away with crime, so be it. Putting a material witness in jail is only more injustice. Somehow this is justified in the eyes of the law, yet in the eyes of humanity, no US jail can be justified. You can't make a right with two wrongs, but no one told the US "justice" system. "Yeah, let's put those rape victims in jail for not testifying. Fuck them. How dare they not testify?"

Dude. He's witnessing against the guy who tried to kill him. If the guy doesn't go to jail he may finish the job. Fuck them means fucking himself.

I think he was going to co-operate anyway, but even if not I think that should be up to the victim to decide to be honest.

It absolutely is reasonable. You have a moral and legal responsibility to testify in court.

I am originally from Turkey, but reside in CA.

We have some sort of "rule of thumb", if you will, that reads "don't talk (to the police) they might write you down as a witness"

Though situations are a bit different, the overall message probably applies here too.

Also, if there is a law that could be abused, no matter how good the intention of the law is, it will be abused.

This is why I cheer up EFF for standing up for the people of the united states, even in contraversial cases that might involve actual criminals.

Turkey is not alone. India has a similar problem. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-39664906

Trouble is, in the short term this means more crimes get solved, but in the longer term it means everybody automatically denying that they saw anything, and more crimes go unsolved.

> Another reason to stay silent. Never talk to the police and they won't have a reason, most of the time, to issue one of these warrants. And if they do, still don't talk.

So we shouldn't investigate any crimes then?

(I agree with you that putting victims in jail without rights is a horrible practice and should be stopped, but your post sounds closer to getting rid of police alltogether)

Material witness warrants are why tourists should really think twice about the US.

"if it is shown that it may become impracticable to secure the presence of the person by subpoena, a judicial officer may order the arrest of the person" https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3144

That means any witness who intends on leaving the jurisdiction anytime soon may be arrested. And once arrested, bail is difficult given that you are being held because you might flee. So any tourist who is victimized in the US, and may therefore be wanted as a witness, should seriously consider revisiting their travel plans.

How do these laws differ in other countries? Don't many European countries have similar provisions for guaranteeing access to witnesses?

Not quite. You can generally leave but must returned when summoned. You may have a interpol notice sent to your country if you refuse to come voluntarily.

Who pays for it and organises the visas and your work and stuff?

I guess you. Not the government.

It sounds worse than it is. Every country has some version. The example I use is from MyCousinVinny where the witness/fiance tries to walk out of the courtroom and the judge orders the bailiff to grab her. That sort of arrest is a near-universal power of judges. It only starts looking evil once that power is extended outside the courtroom.

The wonders of modern technology allow witnesses to be interviewed remotely. Many courts actually do that.

What worries me the most is the ease with which the DA lies to the judge. The bus ticket was obviously made up, and besides: How would the DA know that Mitchell had purchased a bus ticket?

The judge should have realized this. She either a) is incapable of doing her job right, b) does not realize the impact and risks of locking someone up, or c) just doesn't care

If there is a law that could be abused, no matter how good the intention of the law is, law enforcement could abuse it.

This is why I totally believe in slippery slope argument when it comes to laws. Privacy comes to mind, and I cheer EFF for standing up for us, the people of the united states, even in contraversial cases where the suspect is the actual criminal in a trial.

OK, in my fantasy world, material witnesses are at most put in protective custody, in a nice hotel or safe house. They're not arrested like criminals, and thrown in jail.

So why don't they do that?

Someone I knew was held for a long period of time as a material witness. Initially in a jail cell, but eventually released with restrictions to his wife (restrictions involving travel outside of state, etc). Because of this, he lost his job. Because of that, he lost his wife.

Their reasoning: He was a flight risk. But he wasn't. They had never attempted to contact him to ask him to testify. And he had cooperated with them in the past. They just picked him up, and threw him in jail.

More than a year later, they had the trial. He was never called to the stand.

So all this pain because they wanted him to testify, and he was never called to testify.

He sued. His case went to the Supreme Court eventually. Unfortunately, he lost the case. But he did win some minor cases and got damages in the six figures.

Not enough in my opinion...

Would like to read that story.

This is the story:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/16/idaho-studen...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcroft_v._al-Kidd

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/10-98.pdf

https://www.aclu.org/cases/abdullah-al-kidd-v-united-states-...

I am amazed by the "lost his wife" part. What did she say in her wedding vows, "I take you as a husband from this day forward and until our combined income falls below 75% of the average income over the previous 3 years"?

I'm sure it wasn't the direct result of job loss but the events that escalated after the fact. Any married person knows the stress job loss has on a relationship after extended periods of unemployment.

This kind of story is not so uncommon, you know.

Financial stress is a huge cause of divorces.

Don't get married until you understand this phenomenon.

Because they're looking for leverage to force witnesses to cooperate. "Testify, or else."

It drives up costs and they have budget concerns would be my guess.

Sure, I get that. But it's still just so totally wrong.

I never said it was morally correct. I answered the question.

Keeping people locked up also costs a lot of money. But I guess it's not the prosecutor's office who pays that bill.

Correct. It is not the prosecutor's office who pays the bill.

Up until 1984, that was often done. Then, under the Reagan Administration, Congress changed the law to specify that material witnesses were to be given the same treatment as criminal defendants.[1]

[1] http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

That is just insane. Defendants <> witnesses.

Witness intimidation. If the journalist worked just a little harder he would have found the DA or judge obtained something from someone as a bribe. The vast majority of the time, punishing the victim results in the desired outcome and the defendant gets away with it.

Someone has enough power to use "the system" to destroy my life because I saw something, of course I'll testify that sure I was there but I was scared so I didn't get a good look. I have a spouse and kids and not enough life insurance.

Its pretty funny the discussion here in general is not about casual corruption which is almost certainly the problem but instead is wandering into weird ranting about how bad it is or surely its all Trumps fault...

I'd have no problem with material witness warrants and mailing as long as the witness gets independent outside counsel paid for by the prosecutor's office. They must not be used to drive up costs and workloads on the public defender offices, particularly in Louisiana where they're so underfunded and overworked already.

I'd add another requirement: They should get the same "can't be fired for missing work" rules as people summoned for jury duty. Whether you're a juror or a witness, you're being required to perform a public service; there's no justification for having different rules.

Nor should your family starve for not producing income from said job. Just as important, you shouldn't lose your children - I'm guessing this happens if you are a single parent.

What is the objection against providing witnesses with at least the same legal protections as defendants?

I get the idea: you saw something and the state forces you to testify to what you saw to solve the crime. It's a noble idea to punish the perpetrator and make the country safer.

In reality, most of the time it's best not to see or hear anything.

why am I not surprised i knew prior opening article it will be about US just by reading title?

If you want someone to commit perjury out of spite then do this.

That would be a remarkably dumb thing to do. When the system is screwing you over, rebelling is usually the worst decision.

It seems the remarkably dumb thing to do is to come forth as a witness. A good chance you get thrown in jail for it.

"I don't remember. Recent traumatic experiences are all I can think about."

What proportion of the people jailed under these laws are Black or Hispanic?

or male?

Don't talk to the police. They aren't your friends.

edit: I never should've opened my mouth, whenever will I learn...

Well, I don't know the answer one bit. But I suppose I can rest assured that smugly complaining about down-votes while saying absolutely nothing in a blatantly offensive way is a surefire way to turn one's own irreverence into a self-fulfilling prophecy of victimhood.

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