Why Doesn’t the Surface Laptop Have a USB-C Charger? | Hacker News Reader

Why Doesn’t the Surface Laptop Have a USB-C Charger?

gizmodo.co.uk

59 pointsneverminder76 comments

I guess I'm an old fogey now (35) but I don't want a USB C charger. I want a non data transferring power plug that can't be used to compromise my machine should a manufacturer opt to do that. I also only use power bricks to charge my phones/tablets at public charging places instead of the supplied USB cables.

Are there power only Type C cables for charging? Is there some pressing need to reduce the ports on the side of a laptop? I didn't buy the thing to be stylish and impress women, I bought it to get shit done.

That's a reasonable concern - there are USB 'condoms' that ensure the connection is for charging only. http://syncstop.com/

For USB-C phones only, not laptops: http://www.portablepowersupplies.co.uk/portapow-data-block-c...

What's really needed is both a magsafe-style port as well as a USB-C port capable of charging. Use the magsafe charger when you've got it around, and retain the flexibility to charge through USB-C when that's what's available.

Laptop chargers are not as mobile chargers; when you connect a USB, the USB cannot just read the computer's data. It also cannot execute a program. This all comes from USB sticks that got so infected. 0-days aside of course.

Sure it can. All it needs to do that is to emulate a HID device and act as an keyboard or mouse. You might notice when it starts opening cmd/shell and typing commands, or not, or at least not fast enough. Or you may not understand what's happening and ignore the black box that popped up for a while on your desktop.

While valid, that is a totally different scenario from what the OP wants to protect from. I am just pointing out that when connecting a phone and a laptop to an USB the default is that phones are unsecure and laptops are secure-ish. 0days, badUSB and all applies of course.

My phone prompts me for access before it trusts a USB device, my computer loads drivers for it, sometimes without prompting. This seems like the opposite of the situation you describe.

Actually that's exactly the scenario. I could make a USB C charger that is also a memory device with an autorun zero day and while charging your laptop I'm compromising it as well.

Be it portable, individual adapters or public access ones in airports.

But that MagSafe or any other power only adapter? It's not compromising anything

USB-C chargers can of course pretend to be whatever they want, including an infected USB stick.

Sure -- but it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to quickly swap someones cable with a look-alike that could. I'd think that'd be more likely than the original hardware manufacturer implementing phone home or something.

Your charger may not be harmful but that doesn't mean all chargers won't be or that all USB ports are safe.

Imagine if everyone used USB-C then we'd get to the point where no one would carry their charger with them because they could just borrow a charger or plug their computer into a random USB charge port at the Airport or Hotel.

At that point anyone could just setup a free "charge station" that would attempt to execute any number of nefarious exploits against anything plugged into them.

I am a bit older than you (36) and I think USB C charging is a great idea. I just bought a Nintendo Switch, and it is has USB C charger. It would be great if all my other devices could use the same type of charger so I don't have to carry multiple cables/charging bricks with me.

I'm even older (41) and it has nothing to do with this discussion at all :-p

For the record, the sooner everything is USB C the better. Someone can make data-blocking charge-only cables.

> Someone can make data-blocking charge-only cables.

I thought the one Apple ships with the MacBook is a charge-only cable.

[edit]I'm 46 - I would hate to break a thread[/edit]

The USB-C cable that comes with a MacBook's power adapter is not charge-only but only supports USB 2.0 throughput for data [0]. I think that means it also can't be used for things like DisplayPort Alternate Mode.

BTW, if you order an extra USB-C power adapter from Apple [1], it does not come with any cables, not USB-C, not AC for use between the brick and the wall. It only comes with the fold-out prongs (I don't know what non U.S. models are like) but thankfully they didn't change that connector type so if you have an AC cable from a MagSafe adapter, you can use it.

[0] https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLL82AM/A/usb-c-charge-ca...

[1] https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MNF72LL/A/61w-usb-c-power...

Yes. There are power only USB-C cables. In fact, the one that comes with the new MacBook Pro is power only.

> I want a non data transferring power plug that can't be used to compromise my machine should a manufacturer opt to do that.

At least in Linux you can disable automatic binding of kernel drivers to devices like so:

    echo 0 >/sys/bus/usb/drivers_autoprobe

You can plug in a keyboard and even though the device is recognized and listed in "lsusb", it's not used as a keyboard (or network device, soundcard, scanner, ...)

    # dmesg
    [ 1017.031703] usb 1-10.4: new low-speed USB device number 8 using xhci_hcd
    # lsusb -s 1:8
    Bus 001 Device 008: ID 046d:c30e Logitech, Inc. UltraX Keyboard (Y-BL49)

I can type on this newly connected keyboard, but no key presses are recorded on the console or on X-windows. My other (also USB) keyboard that had been connected before is still working fine, though.

This can even be done with a different mechanism on a per-bus basis as described in https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/usb/authorization.t...

If I decide to use the 2nd keyboard, I'll manually bind this device to the usb hid driver like so:

    # echo 1-10.4:1.0 > /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usbhid/bind

(the :1.0 comes from the different functions one single USB device may offer) And from this point on the keyboard works normally.

I have no idea why no one bothered to make a nice gui for this feature (which also works on other busses), or why it's not standard to popup some message-box on other OSs (e.g. Windows) whenever something is plugged in a port, before even trying to load any drivers.

(edit: added 2nd part where I manually bind)

>I have no idea why no one bothered to make a nice gui for this feature

Getting off-topic, but this remark can be applied to most aspects of Linux OS's tbh. We developers are too comfortable with the shell on Linux, whereas with it being such a pain on Windows, the devs themselves are more inclined to write small GUIs left and write to solve their problems.

Yes, I know. And it's sad. I'm also not a "gui" person, and couldn't make a useful graphical interface if my life depended on this.

But I'm especially confused as why this hasn't been built into Windows for years, especially considering how many people were e.g. hurt by "Autoplay" in the old days:

    You've plugged in a device that claims to be...
        [ ] a mouse (driver available)
        [ ] a storage device (driver available)
        [X] a soundcard (driver will be downloaded and installed)
    Tick any of the functions you want to activate, or press CANCEL
    if you don't want to activate any functions of this device, e.g.
    because it's a phone you just want to charge from your laptop.

(of course the wording is utter crap, but you might get the idea...)

That's pretty neat. To make it user friendly I guess you'd have to whitelist attached devices during OS install/setup then prompt for others moving forward. Or whitelist keyboards/mice in general but not other devices.

In that case, maybe you do want the $40 magnetic cable[1] someone else mentioned in this thread.

[1] https://griffintechnology.com/us/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-po...

> I guess I'm an old fogey now (35) but I don't want a USB C charger.

Surface and Macbook's aren't targeted at your user profile unfortunately. There are countless other laptops that fit your usecase?

These high-end flashy laptops are always going to be doing stuff like pushing for immature tech. But if you're the type of person who uses this stuff then you likely have a phone that also uses USB-C.

I bought a Nexus 6P and I love the power/speed of USB-C. On a number of incidences it's made my life easier, sometimes transferring data, mostly the speed of charging, but also I find the build quality to be top notch. USB-C seems to just be a better design than micro-USB.

I had lots of trouble with USB cords being twisted and being broken but after a year I have yet to have this problem with the various USB-C cords I use.

Remember cell phones before Mini USB took over/was mandated by the EU? At many events there used to be booths that would make money by having every charger cable available to charge your phone.

It's great to have a unified connector for everything. My USB-C NexusX cable can charge my friends Macbook.

And eventually, hopefully, in a few years time, it will also mean that wherever you go for a presentation, a USB-C option will be available. There is a really good chance that this will eliminate a lot of duplicate cables and dongles.

I like the surface connector. It's magnetic, plug a single cable in and you get external displays, USB and power. If USB C had a magnetic version I'd consider it.

You can get the same from other kinds of USB-C docks, not just proprietary Microsoft. Griffin makes magnetic USB-C cable if that's what you are looking for and possibly other producers will start.

Why are the default cables that come with laptops not magnetic cables?

Are the Griffin-style magnetic cables just crap?

It seems like a usability regression for no great reason.

I'd say signal loss is a sigificant factor in magnetic solutions given the speed of the protocol. USB-C and Thunderbolt provide metal "envelopes" over the connector when they are inserted. Magnetic connectors cannot do this to facilitate quick removal.

The Griffin magnetic USB C cables are just USB C -> proprietary magnetic connector -> USB C.

See https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61M0YzqUbOL...

I have a proprietary magnetic connector now and I don't have a dongle sticking out of the laptop.

That's a function of the cable and not the laptop. With MagSafe any MagSafe charger will work. With that you only get protection when you bring your Griffin Magnetic dongle with you and remember to use it.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying there, or what you think I said. Both the laptop and the cable are required to support the surface connector, which is better than USB C (it's magnetic) MagSafe (it's data as well as power) and the griffin thing (it's data as well as power and it doesn't stick out)

Sorry I miss read your comment. I thought you were referring to the Griffin connector as not sticking out.

From the Griffin website:

>Please note that BreakSafe is for charging power only; data and video are not supported.

So you're paying $40 for a non-standard USB cable that'll confuse the hell out of less-technically-inclined users.

Also, non-Thunderbolt "USB-C" docks won't do anything that USB 3.0 A docks don't. I've seen people run Gbit Ethernet + HDMI out + HDD from a single USB 3.0 port with no problems.

USB 3.0 docks do not have the bandwidth necessary to run an external graphics card. USB 3.1 / Thunderbolt 3 does.

Have they fixed it yet so that it will either charge in both orientations, or at least not clip on when it is backwards? My Surface RT had the same kind of connector I've seen in the pictures for this new one, and it sucked, because half the time I'd plug it in, leave it for a day or two, and come back and grab it for a meeting to find it dead, because it wasn't actually charging.

I have 3 of them on a Surface Book (1 for dock on my desk, 2 in different bags). All work perfectly in both directions, always charging every time in the last 12 months.

I came to say the same thing. I really like the dock connector. Contrary to what the article states, I find that it always works with no issues. And being able to plug it in all at once for power, monitors, ethernet, mouse and keyboard is nice. I am sure something like that exists from a third party somewhere, but the magnet part is still super nice.

Whenever I am fumbling around with the usb-c power on my MacBook Pro, I miss MagSafe.

It's a shame apple doesn't make a usb-c cable with a magnetic break at the computer end of the cable.

What would the point of that be? Having a USB-C port provides versatility in function. Having a weird proprietary USB-C cable that hooks onto a proprietary magnetic charging interface doesn't provide a ton of improvement over magsafe (even if it could support other USB-C peripherals with an adapter, who wants a USB drive or other device to snap off with a bit of pressure?)

Apple may do it. But it is already in the wild.

https://www.amazon.com/Lightning-Magnetic-Charging-Transmiss...

Scratching that plug around the nearly featureless edge of the MBP is an extremely unsatisfying experience, especially compared to the old "snick" of a MagSafe plug practically attaching itself.

Form over function is just part of the Apple experience. Next you'll be complaining about how the sharp edges of the MBP cut into your wrists or how your have to use your pinkie to hit some of the touch targets in iOS.

Seriously, i wish everyone would stop screaming about USB-C and just mourn this. Both would be fine, but removing magnetic charging was a regression

So, I have a Surface Pro 4, and for various things I have an Ethernet adapter, a portable disc drive, flash drives, etc.

...Everything I want to plug into it is USB-A. I actually have a single USB-C device, which is one of my wireless charging pads for my phone. The phone itself is Micro-USB, and the wireless charging pad... it's own cable is A-to-C.

I'd be really disappointed if I bought a laptop and it didn't have a USB-A port, but USB-C is a trivial thing I do not need. I honestly think the practical call if I have to pick one or the other is still USB-A.

That isn't to say this won't change in the future, but I don't feel we're at a place where on a PC you can only fit one or the other you should be picking C. It's just not there yet.

(And, as a SP4 owner, I'm glad Microsoft is still pushing SurfaceConnect, it gives me hope my Surface crud won't all be useless soon.)

I honestly think the practical call if I have to pick one or the other is still USB-A.

Reading MS's reply that is likely what they thougt as well. It is just, currently, the most practical for (likely) the majority of their customers. At one point you could say they are 'blocking' wide acceptance of USB-C. On the other hand: it will imo still take years before most USB devices sold will be USB-C and the legacy of USB-A devices still being around at that time will be huge anyway. Yes dongles fix all that, but no matter how cheap they are, it's yet another piece to carry around, which can break, get lost, ...

I mean, the laptop still has USB-A ports. It's just the charging port that's discussed here – USB-C vs their proprietary charger.

Remember that port isn't just for charging, it's also used to connect to their dock.

Arguably, the eventual Surface Phone could even use that connector and dock setup.

As lmm notes, the Surface Dock is a really nice peripheral that works with the Surface charging port:

https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/microsoft-surface/7098/hands...

Cost perhaps? I don't know about the pricing differential between the two, but that's the simplest answer.

Also, if this is for an educational market, another answer might be simplicity. Kids and teachers and parents likely didn't want to have to shell out multiple times for lost dongles.

The surface laptop starts at $999; I'd be really surprised if they couldn't fit in a USB-C port at that price point.

Also the article isn't arguing that the laptop shouldn't have any USB-A ports, just that the charging cable should be USB-C rather than a proprietary cable.

I'm thinking the cost for not including Thunderbolt 3 (needs a chip, more power, etc.) but not for missing USB-C.

Don't Intel's latest chips have a couple TB3 busses included?

> Also, if this is for an educational market

Break-away magnetic charger connections are huge if you're going to be issuing them to students. There goes a big chunk of your out-of-commission broken laptops, because somebody tripped over the cord.

This is a pretty expensive laptop so I don't think price should be an issues here

FWIW, it's a pretty expensive laptop, and they still put a free version of Windows 10 on it rather than the full version. (Barring the temporary free upgrade promotion.)

I don't think anyone wants to shell out for multiple dongles. I've got the latest mbp and it's a huge regression in experience having to carrying around so many dongles. I thought it would be manageable but it's a pita.

The dongle and does-this-monitor-work-oh-wait-I-need-a-differet-cable-huh-that-didn't-help-either-guess-I'll-switch-monitors situation with the new MBPs at our office has been much worse than I expected, and I expected it to be pretty bad.

Having to go back to the bad old days of researching all kinds of cables and adapters and monitors and crap to figure out whether some combination of them will maybe do what we need them to is a giant step backwards. Doing anything with the new MBPs and external hardware starts with a frustrating dongle/cable search, as well. The benefits of USBC are, so far, non-existent—it has been an entirely negative experience.

I've heard several stories about problems with USB-C to DisplayPort. To be honest it's been one of my main concerns when looking for a new Ultrabook, HDMI (as practically implemented) mostly doesn't work with 2560x1440 and higher res external displays. Wonder if that's a reason to why they went with USB type A and separate miniDP?

I miss barrel power connectors. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector )

Standardize a physical size and electrical characteristics and we're done. You can plug one in the dark since there's no wrong way round. No data lines so no worrying about security, just plug it in and you're charging up.

Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. The industry had years to decide on a standard for this, but never even got to the point where one company would standardize on a single charger for its whole product line for more than about three years: most companies would do a full business line with compatible chargers, but consumer laptops had something different, and when they did a big hardware refresh, they'd change up the power connectors too.

> consumer laptops had something different

Or in Lenovo's case each consumer laptop has a different connector.

You'll be happy to know that they've also come full circle and the 2017 laptops are using barrel connectors again. All of the different sizes too.

My favorite are Lenovo's USB doppelganger chargers. I'm not sure what's worse, trying to cram your charger into a USB port or trying to cram a USB plug into the charge port.

I prefer power-only chargers, vs. data+power. If we train people to plug their devices into two-way data ports unthinkingly, bad stuff will happen. Realistically if you give someone a USB charger, they'll eventually use USB to another device. With HID profiles being unlocked except in very locked down enterprise environments, doom.

(This can be solved by hardware/OS people, though.)

> If we train people to plug their devices into two-way data ports unthinkingly, bad stuff will happen.

It can't go wrong if EVERYTHING is USB-C this is what our future is going to look like.

The article could be summed up by the title itself. It doesn't seem to provide much else.

No kidding. Since when is 500 words restating a one-sentence question considered an 'article'? Reads like a book report by a 6th-grader who forgot to read the book.

There is little upside for Microsoft in having USB-C on their laptop. Peripheral support is still small and adopting it could be interpreted as validating Apple's choice and further drive availability of devices Apple laptops could use.

I'm really not sure "validating" an apple design choice is more than ego at this point. Even if there are few peripherals there are more than a proprietary charging cable / port will ever have...

A more reasonable reason is that the Surface Dock is pretty nice and it would be a shame if it didn't work with their new Surface model.

Yeah that would make a lot more sense. Maybe not the best choice, but there is logic there.

I don't really understand that? USB c happened outside apple devices first, and its usage is going to grow. If you still have the old style USB ports, you have a device that is more peripheral compatible than the current MacBook, while being just as future proof, no?

There was just no room in the design for it.

Replacing USB-A would hurt backwards compatibility.

Replacing MiniDP would lead users to expect Thunderbolt 3 functionality

Replacing the proprietary power/dock connector would brand it as a cheaper second-class device along the lines of the non-pro Surface 3

What does USB stand for again? Maybe it's time to admit defeat and start the whole universal process over.

Why is USB-C not becoming Universal?

I don't see the defeat. You can use the port for power, display, file transfer, printing, networking?

But surely any new universal port is just going to be USB with a different name?

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