With latency as low as 25ms, SpaceX to launch broadband satellites in 2019
arstechnica.com
arstechnica.com
Initially, the SpaceX system will consist of 4,425 satellites operating in 83 orbital planes (at altitudes ranging from 1,110 km to 1,325 km). SpaceX has proposed an additional constellation of 7,500 satellites operating even closer to Earth.
For the end consumer, SpaceX user terminals—essentially, a relatively small flat panel, roughly the size of a laptop—will use phased array technologies to allow for highly directive, steered antenna beams that track the system’s low-Earth orbit satellites. In space, the satellites will communicate with each other using optical inter-satellite links, in effect creating a “mesh network” flying overhead that will enable seamless network management and continuity of service.
Later this year, SpaceX will begin the process of testing the satellites themselves, launching one prototype before the end of the year and another during the early months of 2018. Following successful demonstration of the technology, SpaceX intends to begin the operational satellite launch campaign in 2019. The remaining satellites in the constellation will be launched in phases through 2024, when the system will reach full capacity.
SpaceX launched 10 new Iridium satellites in 2017.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_satellite_constellatio...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_Communications#Iridium...
By the way, a very small phased array will be very low gain, thus using more capacity on their satellite for the same speeds. Unless they've invented a new type of antenna...
SpaceX can plan to launch be 30% more launches than their actual customers need. All those extra rockets are used for internet satellites. If there's an accident (boom) or a sudden need for more rockets, the internet satellites get delayed, and the paying customer gets a rocket.
If customers are finicky about using re-flown rockets, that's fine, the internal customer doesn't care. If a customer backs out for any reason, the internal customer takes their place.
Rocket production gets a smooth flow going, which improves production efficiency.
That money is to help fund Mars colonization, which has been SpaceX's ultimate goal from the beginning. There's also some nice synergy in that similar tech can be used to deploy a global communications network for Mars as well.
Which I continue to misunderstand ...
You can go to Mars ... you can have an outpost on Mars ... you can have scientists and tourists and so on go back and forth to Mars - all very positive and exciting.
But you can't live on Mars for an extended period because the gravity is 1/3 of earths.
Your teeth will decay. Your bones will weaken (even with hours per day of resistance work, which will be mandatory). Your heart will weaken. Your organs will malfunction. You will get cancer from a weakened immune system. Red blood production goes down.
Your body is built for and tightly coupled to Earths gravity. I fail to see how one could actually live on Mars without sacrificing 30 or more years of lifespan.
I'm genuinely curious.
Maybe they just cant can't, but don't care. Some people could be willing to decrease their lifespan in order to colonize a different planet, making the human race interplanetary.
Also, theoretically, people will evolve over time to be able to handle those conditions. We're used to making plans a couple years ahead. When thinking of interplanetary colonization, we should think many generations ahead.
You don't want to go down that road.
* Imagine 20% of the population has adaptations that make them better suited to mars--they keep their teeth, their bones are stronger, they do well in sports, they have more energy to take care of kids, so they have 1 extra kid on average. In one generation, that percentage is 30% and in one more it is 45%, one after that and it is the majority and heads toward 100%.
What we'll be looking at is speciation. Also, evolution is at-work on our population as we speak--it doesn't take breaks.
Can't you rather cheaply create a centrifuge where you'll sleep - and may be even work indoors - which will maintain 1G? Centrifuge big enough so no significant side forces would occur?
Or if you wanted to go underground, bore a large circular tunnel and put the habitat inside.
He's an industrialist. He saw he'd need batteries for his electric cars, so he said "I should make batteries". Then he said "Who else needs batteries? Solar producers". So Tesla now makes cars, batteries, and solar panels. That wasn't just by chance, that was planned.
Now he says "I have a rocket company I want to scale up, but I don't know if demand will be there". So what does he do? He makes a company that could be profitable, but more importantly fills in the demand he wants to have for his rockets. The rocket business is bigger, which makes it more stable. The internet company might work, or it might lose money, but it's still a tool to the real goal.
This is why Amazon made AWS. Because they needed cheap, simple cloud infrastructure. Alexa/Echo helps people buy more stuff. They're building a shipping infrastructure ostensibly for themselves but probably soon enough for customers as well.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/exclusive-peek-at-spacex-data-sh...
The smart industrialist expands his business to become his own supplier and his own customer.
Such receivers can also act as backhaul for mesh networks, providing access to un-censored information in times of turmoil and peace alike.
EDIT: Data customers would pay for access on an individual basis. Helicopter-parent countries might cry foul, but what leverage do they have? It's not like they were going to launch things with SpaceX and they can threaten to stop.
They could always keep operating anyway, but it's only a matter of time before these governments set up jammers.
You really think North Korea wouldn't damage a satellite giving its citizens open internet access if it had the ability to do so?
How phased array antennas respond to jamming is unfortunately beyond my knowledge.
At a subscriber level, monthly billing to 'SpaceX Broadband, Redmond' might be cause for inquisitive State Police to visit.
At a state level, the legality of jamming / interfering with satellites over national territory has never been definitively established. So SpaceX might find it easier to just turn-off over hostile nations than have them upset the network.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Radio_Q...
The buying, selling and using of satellite internet equipment will be outlawed in countries that don't allow free access to the internet (unless of course the internet satellite company signs agreements to impose the blocking of choice of the regime in question).
SpaceX might be safe from the Turkish, Chinese or Egyptian governments, but the users won't be.
You can bet that the US government will want to exert control over it anyway to some degree so even if they are not always sympathetic to other governments requirements that lack of sympathy is a negotiating position not a matter of principle.
Where it's Great news is places which already can use only satellite internet, but have very poor experience. Rural Australia for example. Having low local (or even global) latency would be amazing.
If you have a phone with you, you're likely providing a better location to Google/Apple right now.
This should be interesting, depending on how this is regulated on the legal side it could result in the major ISP's updating our infrastructure, of course nothing has stopped them from agreeing to update infrastructure then running off with our tax money in the past. Not to mention they will probably use legal means to hamstring this if possible. Hopefully this spurs competition in areas with stagnating ISP's and increases availability of low latency connections in sparsely populated areas.
I wonder how this could work. It's not like, e.g., Milwaukee has any legal oversight over LEO.
They could also get some silly RF regulations passed that make it not feasible economically.
This could make a major difference for that type of rural town.
I live in a semi-rural area. I chose to live there. Why should everyone else pay to give me top-tier internet access?
If high-speed internet access is important to me, I need to move to a neighborhood that has that amenity
One could as why everyone else should have to pay to give you postal service at the same price as someone in, say, NYC when the cost of provision is much higher.
The reason the person above you mentioned government is that it's likely that government owns the streets that any net access would run through as well as having countless other regulations that would need to be followed.
Even at 4425 satellites that means, let's see. The earth is 500 million km2, and they don't need the same density everywhere, so some optimizations may be possible, so let's say 5000 satellites. That means 100,000 km2 per satellite. That means one satellite per decent sized country, only about 100 for the entire US. This is not geostationary orbit, so they'll have to aim for evenly spaced satellites.
Let's say they fix their satellites and do 10x what is currently possible, so that means 100Gbit/satellite. Current internet traffic into and out of the Netherlands is 50 times that (granted, more and denser cities than portugal, but the Netherlands would have to share one SpaceX satellite with Belgium and parts of the UK).
They would only be able to provide about 1/10,000,000th of a Satellite to a cellphone in the US, and if they have 100 Gbit/satellite, that's not even 1kbit on average. Even 10x or 100x that capacity wouldn't change much. Doubling or tripling the number of satellites won't fix this, we'd need between hundreds of thousands and to millions of satellites.
This will either need to be rather expensive (certainly as much as your cellphone, probably more, as this seems to indicate the system can only support 100x less users than the mobile network in the US, and even less in smaller dense countries or cities like the Netherlands or New York). Even at state of the art technologies, bandwidth limits are going to be tight. Like any satellite service, I can't see this work at city densities, or for mobiles.
I wonder what will be the marketing buzzword for the first datacenter in space…
ISPs aren't letting congestion get to record levels to YouTube and Netflix because they want to screw with you, they're keeping the congestion "contained" at certain peering links because that cuts down quite a bit of the amount of aggregate bandwidth they have to deal with at the last mile. If they upgraded their peering links then they'll just cause congestion for everything instead of just video services that will gracefully degrade to worse quality in the face of congestion.
Moving to FTTH is a win-win situation, ISPs get a break from the endless struggle of keeping the last mile free of congestion and customers get something closer to net neutrality since the ISPs don't have perverse incentives when it comes to peering agreements.
The price for 50/50mbps is staying the same in my area, however they have dropped the 75/75, 100/100, 150/150, and 300/300 options entirely and now offer 50/50 or 1000/1000 (which is actually 940/880 which is around the limits of "normal" ethernet).
And while they advertise $69.99 on the site, clicking through to "more info" shows it as $79.99 and calling in to ask about it they are telling me it will be $89.99 for the first year, then $99.99 for the next year with a 2 year contract as a new customer only. And when I told them I am already a verizon customer, they had to re-run it and found that it will actually be $119.99 for the first year, $129.99 for the second year on a 2 year contract.
And that's before I even get the bill which in my experience with verizon is often 10% larger than the quoted price with internet only (and when I had phone+internet+tv it was almost double the quoted price after taxes, fees, expired discounts, required equipment rentals, and other bullshit).
According to (https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-set-up-and-la...) it costs ~$80-$100 million per satellite to build, launch, and run. So that's ~$354-$443 billion for all the satellites. Let's call it $443.
Now, I pay ~$60/m for internet. That's $720/yr. If they want to recoup costs after 10 years, it'll take ~61.5 million subscribers.
For the U.S. alone, that'll probably never happen. But worldwide? Maybe. Though worldwide the price per subscribe will be less, often times substantially less.
On the other hand, SpaceX will have lots of operational discounts because its their own rockets, and they already have all the supply channels for building space tech. And maybe they aren't looking to payback in 10 years for this initial run; maybe they only want to break even so payback in 15 is good enough.
Just some numbers for thought.
P.S. Businesses unlucky enough to be in "rural" areas, aka most commercial business parks outside of tech cities, are in the unfortunate position of paying the local telephone company/AT&T/TimeWarner thousands per month for roughly dial-up speeds. SpaceX could charge the same but offer broadband speeds and get a nice chunk of business, methinks.
OneWeb has announced $$ numbers, and they're much cheaper than $100 million each: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OneWeb_satellite_constellation
Finally, the plan is obviously contingent on bringing launch costs further down and realising economies of scale in the satellite manufacture. I'm not sure if they can do it, but being able to launch at least 10, and maybe even as many as 20 at once makes a large difference.
- https://twistedsifter.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/nasa-earth...
- Spain: https://twistedsifter.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/nasa-earth...
Note that they are to the side, straight down you would see a much smaller area!
So the SpaceX satellites would be three times higher. Still, you can see you may need quite a few stations on the ground, and also why you need so many satellites. They will fly over the area very quickly and by then the communication will already have to have been handed over to the next one. There is so much earth to cover, with satellites much higher up you cover a much wider area and you can have them in a stationary orbit. Earth has a diameter of 12,742 km, I have to keep reminding myself that even the ISS is barely above the surface if you were to look at earth from a distance.
[0] Source: http://twistedsifter.com/2015/04/earth-day-gallery-by-nasa/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/20/mega-constellatio...
I was thinking of older speculative articles where HN discussions seemed to think they would only be 300-500 kilometers up, this article states otherwise.
2) Present internet satellites are all in mostly geostationary orbits that are much further away then the proposed leo's. Realistically the ones we have now introduce a whopping 650ms. This will be a huge improvement.
What about the LEO systems such as Iridium, etc. (I forget which is owned by whom and what their statuses are)?
Iridium is a great low-cost, low-bandwidth network though.
I'd be pretty nervous about throing 10k pingpong balls into the atlantic IF the collision of two pingpong balls was disastrous :)
Obviously these satellites will be carefully placed NOT to collied - but the effect of a collision is pretty bad. The problem is that any one of them might collide with some tiny piece of junk, turning it 1000 pieces of junk (which is now 1000x more likely to collide with something, and impossible to control). These satellites won't tip the scales, but it's a nightmare scenario that comes ever closer with every satellite launched.
For comparison my CableCo connection in the left-middle of America achieves a loop RTT of about 10ms (5ms Latency), and an RTT to 8.8.8.8 of 25ms (12.5ms Latency).
PS: Remember, they can put these stations near anything that people want low latency connections to.
With a fast turn around re-usable F9 booster (so its relaunch costs are significantly less than launching a new one) Musk would have control over his destiny in this case. When Iridium was being built the whole ground station thing (up/down links into the switched telephone network) was nearly a decade slog of permission, licenses, and regulations.
That said, if he is successful he will suck a lot of money out of wallets that belong to some pretty big fat cats companies. And if he made every ground station a Tor exit node it would really mess with the powers that be.
I'm fairly surprised the US government is a-ok with all of this, or maybe they've already sat down and had a chit chat with Mr Musk. Or, if everyone moves to SpaceX internet service does it make no difference whatsoever to the NSA?
We don't need the additional mindkill of 'Time to short SpaceX!'.
So, communicating from Australia to Norway would traverse the diameter of the earth, rather than half of the circumference (plus satellites of course)
It's like sharing the same random oracle, you could use it to encrypt stuff, but sharing the same random bits with another party doesn't actually let you send information
What if the "no-cloning theorem"[0] wasn't actually right? That would enable doing a bunch of copies of the same particle state, making it possible to predict the probability distribution of each particle. That way it would be possible to send information doing measurements[1] rather than forcing a particle state.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-cloning_theorem
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2016/05/04/the-real-r...
So, quantum mechanics isn't linear in nature any more? And it gets to transmit information superluminally? It's probably more likely that we're all living in a simulation and the devs accept a pull request from us increasing the speed of light so we can play games better. The no-cloning theorem itself is actually pretty fundamental to quantum mechanics and it would be very unexpected if it was wrong.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12548175#12548733
"Basic principle is that while measurements between both sides will be correlated, it's not possible to tell how they are correlated until both sides compare measurements."
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/203831/ftl-commu...
:)
And yeah, I know latency would be between 6 and ~45 minutes.