Cafe owners are pulling the plug on WiFi | Hacker News Reader

Cafe owners are pulling the plug on WiFi

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71 pointswalterbell118 comments

I think that's a fair choice for a number of reasons. The problem is, the need for an external workspace still isn't going away. This is a /huge/ market opportunity, and anybody who has gone to Workshop Cafe in San Francisco knows it. (Just try to find a seat there during business hours; it's impossible.)

The problem with the coffee shop is that the value they provide and their financial model are not aligned. Coffee shops make money by selling coffee. Workers go to coffee shops for the workspace, location, and ambiance of not working from home. Yes, people also go to coffee shops to buy coffee, but I'm not talking about those people. There is a class of person (freelancers, artists, even people just taking the day off from their normal office) who want a non-lonely place to work around people.

The only business I've seen who "gets it" is Workshop Cafe -- a coffee shop that makes its money by selling the workspace, not the coffee (but yes they do also serve coffee). They have power outlets at every seat, incredible Wi-Fi, and charge $2 / hour (at least last time I was there) for a seat, and even have phone booths for calls.

There should be a Workshop Cafe in every major city on Earth. There's already a WeWork for the more permanent class of co-working; why is there not a "coffee shop" that focuses its business catering toward laptop hobos, and actually provides amenities for that use -- no more scrounging for power outlets, crappy Wi-Fi, nowhere to take a call, et cetera. Workshop Cafe in SF will even deliver food from local restaurants to your table!

Then, finally, we will have two types of businesses for these two completely separate use cases: coffee shop-style drop-in co-working spaces, for people who want to get work done in a productive environment, and coffee shops. For you know, people who just want to drink a cup of coffee.

I think initially when a coffee shop starts out they want those who stick around for a long time in order to show they are a busy place and attract more customers. But once they grow to be busy enough they longer care about those customers who stick around for a long time.

Also how would the economics of a Workshop Cafe work? How much would the hourly cost be to get a table?

They've been growing with their current model ($2/hr/seat). I was in SF recently (used to live there, don't anymore..) but whenever I am in town I go there even when having a nice office to go to. Granted - I don't know all of their economics but they definitely charge a bit for food but I find the atmosphere great enough to pay for that.

I wonder how well that would work here in Japan. You don't see as many people working on laptops in a coffee shop here, but you do see an awful lot of English teaching and students studying

Being based in tokyo...I see that a lot at various starbucks. I don't know where you frequent but I see a ton of people working on laptops in cafes.

Granted, there are folks who do the "talk to your friend" thing but I don't see much of a difference between SF and Tokyo in that respect.

I usually see this in the more typical local chains like Doutour, Pronto, and even excelsior (despite them usually lacking outlets) as well.

I'm in Totsuka near Yokohama, it's not a very tech area.

Yeah that makes sense then.

So strange to read about it as if it is something new. We had these things since 2010 and they are very popular in Russia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-café

That sounds awesome, and too bad there's not more of these around. Though I can see how it requires certain density of potential clients to work, may not be that workable outside of dense cities (so OK in San Francisco, iffy in San Jose). But I'd use such service, provided I can get comfortable seating, good Wifi and some tea, etc. and booths for calls. If one was near me, I'd seriously think about a monthly subscription (provided it's suitably discounted from the hourly rate).

OTOH, when I am using coffee shop for its intended purpose, I also like to browse the internet. So of two coffeeshops one of which offers wifi and another doesn't, I'd probably go to the former even if I don't plan to work there.

I've started having a coffee first and then working at my local public library - more outlets, more seating, more quiet, and faster wifi.

I don't know why this never occurred to me before now. I drive by a public library every time I go to a coffee shop or coworking space to work.

Biggest issue with libraries that you cannot hear people talking. This might be a good or a bad thing depending on you. I really like working from coffee shops especially because of the noise (and random eavesdropping).

That's the biggest reason I don't like working at coffee shops. I almost always work from home, but sometimes I realize I haven't left the house in days and need a change of scenery.

We actually worked out of our public library every day as a small (4 person) company, and it was wonderful - they're usually in great locations downtown near good restaurants, they have really nice peaceful quiet atmospheres, and when you need a break, you can wander through the stacks and see what catches your eye for after-hours reading. When you need to take a call or have a non-compete discussion, you can just step outside. I highly recommend it.

The library is awesome.

Use your public library; the staff actually want you to be there.

Credit to 'tptacek for originally reminding me of that fact: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758722

> Use your public library; the staff actually want you to be there.

Unfortunately for a public library more footfall doesn't equal more revenue. In fact it can increase running costs, which results in opening hours like my local library:

Mon: 13:00 - 20:00

Tue: 10:00 - 17:00

Wed: 10:00 - 17:00

Thu: 10:00 - 17:00

Fri: 10:00 - 16:00

Sat: 10:00 - 16:00

Sun: Closed

And that's regardless of the lack of amenities: my library has one table and no toilets.

> Unfortunately for a public library more footfall doesn't equal more revenue

That seems...backward. It would seem that with more footfall and circulation, the library should be able to justify a larger budget from the city. And unless the city is struggling financially, they should get it. Are there some other issues also?

I agree. Libraries are adapting to the modern times and needs.

No toilets?? Where are you? Even inner city DC libraries have toilets.

Shh... Every now and again, I browse books in my city centre public library and it's almost impossible to sit down to read due to the number of people with laptops using the free Wi-Fi and electrical sockets. There's actually an interesting mix of native and foreign students and the odd homeless person reading the free newspaper.

Four Barrel in San Francisco did this explicitly at their founding (no outlets either). Unfortunately, the rise of tethering and incredible battery life means it's completely defeated and you often see every table occupied with a person on a laptop.

I wonder if people would get the message if a "xx minute maximum time" not was posted. If one person does that, the store can absorb it, but not if 50% do. That $2 they made on the coffee doesn't go far enough.

Or have a section with mini-cubicles, like they have internet access by the minute in third world countries.

Disturbingly, the cafeteria in my office has this problem. Despite signs saying "please don't camp here during service hours", you often find a person happily taking up a booth for four or table for six with their laptop.

Coffee is practically free. Staff is somewhat expensive. Rent is extremely expensive. The rental rate for fully furnished ~25 square feet (table, chair, some personal space) is higher that two lattes per day.

The coffee is free to the cafe, but the price to the consumer at $5+/cup covers rent and staff.

> Coffee is practically free

I ran a cafe for three years (the slashRoot tech collective in New Paltz - maybe some NYC folk here came there?), and the cost of coffee (and milk) for us was non-negligible.

We were paying $8/pound for one locally roasted variety; $9 for another.

We also served entirely local or organic milk.

Our rent was $1950 plus utilities.

High-end coffee joints pay a fair bit for ingredients.

I never saw your place when I hung out in New Paltz (almost every weekend in 2009-2010), but it would have been cool to see a tech scene get established. I miss that city.

Yeah, New Paltz is a really special place.

We were open from 2010-2012.

How many servings are in a pound?

It really depends on what drinks you're making - maybe as few as 15 (big fancy lattes with 2 huge pulls of espresso), maybe as many as 25 (weak auto drip).

Third-wave sustainable coffee is very expensive

Social side aside, what is the point, isn't 4g everywhere these days?

It is (or seems like it)... but it'd be pretty expensive to be tethered all day, every day.

$2/day ($0 if I don't use it on a particular day) for me in Australia (unlimited data but limited to 3g). Unfortunately, I don't think this plan is available anymore.

About to head to NZ and not looking forward to giving up this ideal (for me) prepaid plan.

As someone who moved from NZ to AU.. Oooh you're going to feel the hurt. You can still get 90GB/mo 3G plans in AU for $80/mo which I'm super happy with. Comparatively in NZ I paid $30/mo for 3GB.

The only thing I do I miss is NZ's speeds (in AKL/WEL at least). 4G there is usually 10x faster than what I get in Melbourne CBD.

Wow. I get 110+ megabits in Melbourne and 10+ in Canberra.

0.5€ per day for unlimited data here in Europe, heck Poland has 5€ per month for unlimited everything

can't wait for end of roaming charges, even if they limit no fees for like 3 months per year abroad it's worth just switch SIM every three months only because of data, even if you will use secondary card for calls and SMS so people can reach you on same number

It really depends on how you work. I can think of a couple cases that are pretty slim.

1, ssh + tmux, or something along those lines. If your stuff is all on a remote machine, and you're proficient with the command line tools, you can do a ton of stuff over a very thin pipe. 30k would be more than enough, but latency can be frustrating because the local echo.

2, Local dev with local docs. Something like IntelliJ and all the code lookups pointed at local javadoc. With the right setup your network use is pretty much just git fetches and pushes.

When you start pulling down VMs or pushing containers, things kinda fall apart.

It's worth thinking about how to slim down that network connection. Being able to work remotely with a real thin connection like that opens up a lot of opportunities. One example might be a funeral. Going home for a couple weeks vs a day or two of bereavement can be, well, nice. Obviously that kind of thing depends on your employer.

In my country (switzerland), you can have unlimited data and call for about 30$ per month.

Most people don't have tethering plans.

I dunno; I think the problem is that you don't mind getting a crippled phone with your contact? Bring your own device and you'll pay less for it and be subject to less bullshit...

> crippled phone

The phone doesn't determine if you can tether; and even if it overrides the carrier's instructions and tethers when told not to, they can (and do) still tell the difference in usage and shut you down.

I'll echo sibling comment. On the exact same device, tethering isn't related to device, but related to plan - typically tethering is an extra $50 or so.

You can often tether for a very short time using a rooted phone without explicitly paying for it, but most carriers are very hip to that traffic.

I didn't even know that you required a plan to do tethering, must be a US thing.

In a few plans I've seen in Europe, tethering can be prohibited in the ToS, but is not technically blocked.

You can also find specific tethering plans, sometimes with 4G modems offered by the seller.

There's typically a monthly limit of a few Gbs/month for a full speed.

This is only if you have an "unlimited" plan. If you use a plan with caps, they have no care how you use your data.

Right, but then the cap is generally a few GB per month anyhow

Plans in the 15-30 GB/month range aren't terribly expensive.

I don't think it's the connectivity so much as it is just a place to go and sit down for a while.

Then why are coffee shops deciding to stop WiFi rather than watching out for people who sit for too long?

It works to reduce the number of people who stay too long without directly attacking them. WiFi access might be a motivator for using the cafe this way even if it isn't the main reason people do it.

I would prefer a park.

What if there's bad weather, or it's too bright, or there's no tables?

If there is bad weather, I would rather stay at home if I can. If there is good weather, I'm pretty sure a tree won't be hard to find. I've heard they can do wonders against that brightness problem ;)

data cap maybe

The real reason they cut it off is seating. Wifi costs practically nothing to them, so if you sit all day with their wifi, your cell plan or solving equations it's the same. Then, they'll find new ways to discourage it.

Many of the plans you see advertised on TV explicitly exclude tethering (always ask)

Some areas just have really bad speeds (in Houston and just north, I get great speeds, but when I go to the upscale city a bit further - The Woodlands - it's like I'm on a 14.4 modem)

Well I guess it depends on how valuable your seating is. If you are in a dense area or your cafe is particularly busy, than having people sit around all day and only order a couple of drinks is costing you money. If the seating never fills up, then it is probably worth while, I feel that people are more likely to enter a store that already has customers in it than one without any.

If the seating never fills up then you're paying too much in rent.

Sure, if you literally NEVER fill up. But that's a pretty iffy metric, because people will not cram themselves into every available seat; a party of 4 can come on, see no totally open tables, and bail, even if you have a few seats here and there.

Most of the country is not as expensive as San Francisco, and expenses are driven by labor and electricity. You can afford a few extra square feet to have enough seating when at peak capacity.

Not necessarily, depends on the rent. However, there may be better things to do with the space. Take a look at Japan and their highly successful 7-11s. Don't confuse them with 7-11s in the US, they are quite a different league. Basically it's a question of "how many goods and services that cover people's everyday needs can I put per square meter". Banking, post office, travel agency, adapters, amenities, underwear, ready made food, food to be cooked, drinks, alcohol, movies, holiday gifts, nowadays even seating - it's all there, even in the smallest ones measuring 20m2.

Now, they have a similar problem to WiFi: People coming in and reading Manga or the occasional Soft porn magazine without buying anything. Why even sell that stuff - hardly anyone buys is anymore nowadays is my guess. However, they studied the effects and found that it's still worth it to have them there in the grad scheme of things: It reduces theft significantly, because robbers typically won't go in when the place isn't deserted. They then even started offering free parking spaces for taxi drivers so they can rest there, which again curbed theft.

In a cafe, there's even more reason why you want tables to be occupied even if people don't spend money: An almost full coffee shop with a handful of tables free is more attractive to potential customers than an empty one.

So yea, it really depends on the property - in very frequented city centers on the first floor WiFi doesn't make sense. But even there, have a look what Japan does on third or fourth floors and up - Net/Manga/Theme cafes where you pay per hour, offering infinite entertainment, computers, fast internet, sleeping compartments and even showers.

I often wonder what makes Japanese so much more innovative in those areas compared to Westerners, but I think it has to do with Japan having a comparatively very deregulated zoning and licensing system for these sorts of venues.

"By not offering WiFi, they're hoping to create more of a community atmosphere where people talk to each other instead of silently typing on their computers."

I see as many singles as pairs or groups at coffee shops. It's not always a social exercise for people.

If the habit is going to a coffee shop solo, they may swap books for computers, or just tether. Can't ban everything.

Here's an idea: For the big enough coffee shops, how about a WiFi section and a WiFi-free section? Like smoking sections back in the day.

The problem with smoking sections was the smoke would waft over to the non-smoking area. You'll have the same problem with wifi.

Maybe it's possible to jam the signal around a perimeter. Maybe not...yet.

Isn't that illegal?

If you're using an active "jammer", then yes it's highly illegal.

However, if you build a RF blocking wall, then it is legal.

Maybe they mean that the area would be designated for people who intend to sit and use the wifi for a long period, whereas the other area would be for shorter sits.

Call it "laptop-section" and "no-laptop-section" and enforce that? (since it seems to be the goal in the end anyways) I've been to places like that and it works.

When I was in Berlin last winter, I noticed a few coffee shops that had strict no-laptop policies at the front but often allowed laptops in back rooms or further away from the entrance. Seemed like a win-win.

Mesh curtains?

Charging for wifi by the hour would be a good alternative. Give 30 minutes free with every coffee purchase, possibly dependent on price of beverage. The outlying issues are other open wifi spots that are close to the shop and people tethering their phones and just using the cafe for a spot to do work. Both of those will happen even if they "pull the plug".

Their purpose isn't to stop people mooching their wifi though. Their purpose is to have a totally different atmosphere by discouraging people from using their cafe as an office.

you can use unlimited 4G anywhere

This is actually something I'm super conscious about. I travel to visit my parents somewhat often, and I work a few days remotely when I do. I've had a bit of luck rotating through a few spots. If I feel like I've exhausted those, I'll post up in a larger chain like a Starbucks — I feel somewhat less guilty when I know I'm not taking up a seat in a locally owned business. Most places will pull decaf espresso shots or have pastries of some sort, so I'm not just drinking coffee all day.

Aside: If anyone wants to swap coffee shop recommendations in Pittsburgh, feel free to send me a message.

Does Hacker News have messaging?

You can put your contact details in your profile.

You need to put them in the About text box. The email box is not displayed, it's only used by HN if they need to tell you something.

Ah thank you - now I know.

why not just find place which is not busy? no need to feel bad about being there occupying some spot if half of the cafe is empty anyway all day

It's partly because those can be hard to find (less so now that a lot of the campuses nearby are wrapping up their semesters), but it's mostly me being overly self-conscious. I don't really want to be known as that guy who posts up on his laptop all day, but I should probably get over that.

I've always daydreamed about a cafe big enough to have two viable areas: one quiet and businesslike, where working on laptops is OK, and one buzzy and social, where working on laptops is forbidden. The idea that somehow it's completely wrong to do business in a cafe would come as a surprise to the coffeehouses that ultimately turned into Lloyd's of London and the London Stock Exchange, to name a couple.

In my daydream, there is somehow a way to make people pay for the space they are taking up, too. Perhaps what I'm thinking of is a co-working space with a cafe next door?

Ziferblat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziferblat) aka "anti-cafe", is a bit like this and there's a few in the UK.

It's an interesting mix between cafe and working space as it has a pay-per-hour model with tea/coffee and snacks available at no further charge.

Although there's no partition between "quiet" and "loud" area, it's a big enough space to support both (in London at least).

> I'm thinking of is a co-working space with a cafe next door?

The Dock and Dock St Café & Bar in London is exactly this.

[1] http://www.thedocklondon.com/

[2] http://www.thedocklondon.com/the-dock-club-affiliate-members...

[3] https://officesnapshots.com/2015/12/03/dock-london-coworking...

[4] https://hubblehq.com/office-space/1313/the-dock

I don't know if this is a trend. The major coffee shop in my small college hometown has mandated for as long as I can remember that the seating upfront be used for only conversation or newspaper-reading. In New York, it seems about as common to find coffee shops without WiFi and with it. Think Coffee only has it in some of their locations. In fact, I believe the Think Coffee in which the first scene of "Mr. Robot's" first episode was shot (12st, East Village) does not have wi-fi, in contrast to its fictional portrayal.

Think still has a problem with people (especially students) camping out with laptops. It seems impossible to get a seat even if you're patient.

I'd happily pay $20/hr for a seat. That's what, 3 lattes in SF? I just literally can't drink that much coffee.

If you gave me an alternative way to pay for it, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

It's not an issue of paying for the space -- they want a social establishment, not an office.

In fact, paying for the space exacerbates the problem, as only people using it as an office would be willing to pay.

WeWork in mid market starts at $400 a month. For your pricing that's 10 2 hour sessions in a month.

In SF? Check out http://www.workshopcafe.com/. Cheaper than you proposed, and designed to allow you to pay for the space.

I love stopping by there when I'm in SF.

Wonderful vibes - busy and friendly.

Workshop is amazing. I hope they're making money (they seem packed most days). Wish more locations would open.

I love workshop Cafe. I used to go quite often. I frequented Third Workplace, but unfortunately, they shut down.

Bad trend for international travellers subject to data roaming fees that still cost dollars per megabyte (megabyte not gigabyte because it's 1995 once you cross a border).

PSA: Google Fi works transparently in almost every country (Tahiti/French Polynesia is the only exception I've experienced so far), and charges the same $10/gig everywhere I've been. If you travel a lot, it's a godsend. Also apparently gets around the great firewall in China, so I usually tethered even when wifi was available. Wonderful service overall, I highly recommend it.

Fi is a nice option for for US residents. Beyond the roaming benefit, I don't think it achieves much in most of Europe and Asia anyway. That, combined with the history of Google Voice, means I don't see Fi going global anytime soon.)

I have Three in UK and it does have decent free internet roaming in a lot of countries. The roaming is slow with not a hope of streaming media, but seems to have certain types of content like maps and mail whitelisted for fast access. It's useful but still requires getting a local sim for anything serious.

This is a legit issue. In L.A. here you see it all over. Like 1 in 4 coffeeshops has removed plugs and wifi. It's especially pertinent here because homeless people will buy a coffee for a couple bucks and stay all day on their phone or cheap tablet just watching movies and surfing the web.

It's like what's the contract between the purchaser and the business owner. If I bought a coffee for 2 bucks am I entitled to take up a table all day?

There's a need in the market, but we don't want to meet it." This is a perfect example of why small businesses stay small, if they last that long.

p.s. In the 90s, before ecomm and digital (music) hit, I had a music+clothing B&M store. If I had that store today it would have tables/desks, host events, etc. That's where thing are headed...

Joke's on them, I bring a book.

I think the wireless carriers may have just won, with 4G unlimited plans, who needs in-secure wide open wifi. Over the years in tech, I look for certain inflection points, and I think this could be one. Only time will tell, but it has that look to it for me.

I agree with this. I've worked countless hours in cafes abusing the free wifi, and I completely understand their position. If cafes shut off their wifi then this will hopefully spur working spaces to open up.

If there's a market good luck to them. I won't be a customer though.

I have cultivated a good relationship with the owner of my local coffee spot. I work on a laptop there after work when its not busy. I have been a daily customer there since they opened in 2012.

Oh. This problem is not strang for me. Thats is why I am working on Codemates.io. The first location we plan to open in Sacramento, CA. And move further.

Also: Rather than get rid of the wifi why not remove power outlets? That will make most people leave after a couple of hours.

Why not a rule that says you must order something every 20 minutes or so? This expectation is not uncommon in Arab cafes.

If you read the article this has nothing to do with their reasons for not offering wifi.

Clearly advertise it and I'll have no problem.

> While he says most people understand, "we still piss people off."

No great loss. Those kinds of people are self-entitled bad customers. Let someone else cater to them.

One day, in a distant utopian future, a journalist writing an article like this will actually have to get, you know, data showing that anything is changing, and "I interviewed a few people" won't cut it.

Yeah, "this one shop somewhere is doing <insert contrarian alarmism" doesn't cut it.

> Like 1 in 4 coffeeshops has removed plugs and wifi.

I'd say this was true for in Toronto and NYC for most of the past decade. How do we know anything is changing?

Maybe they just need to change their business model...

It sounds like they did change their business model to attract more of the clientele they want and less of what they don't.

I'm not sure what you're actually trying to imply.

I'm implying that if a business situated in a certain location is attracting people because of WiFi, then maybe there's something in it.

You can see it as a problem, or you could also see it as a potential opportunity.

That's...exactly what they're doing?

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