Views Show How North Korea Policy Spread Misery
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
Just today someone on some Russian blog wrote about typical North Korean perceptions of life abroad... It was along the lines of "Yes, we know they are bullshitting it. It's all propaganda. We're told Americans are all hungry and unemployed, but we know anyway! Life is good there, you can get plenty of rice for your ration stamps! No millet, no barley, everyone can get rice if they want. Not only in the capital, anywhere in the country. And the rations are big!"
In fact, I recall reading somewhere that some middle-class North Koreans, because they have access to American movies, think American life is full of violence, drama and gunfights... I wish I could remember where I read this. Talking to a visitng American, they asked him how he could live with bullets flying everywhere!
I grew up under a communist regime in Eastern Europe. I was 20 when the revolution took place. So I think I know pretty well what the situation was during the dictatorship.
There was a pretty big difference between the official propaganda and the way people were really thinking. But it would have been very difficult for someone "from outside" to get a glimpse of what was going on behind the layers upon layers of doublethink. The risks were simply too great for anyone to open up and give a piece of their mind to a total stranger. The true dimensions of this orwellian spirit are hard to fathom without having the unmediated experience of it.
I would say that people had a pretty good idea about "life in the West". Not a perfect image, many details were certainly lacking, but overall correct. However, they would not openly discuss about those things except with close relatives or very close friends. Beyond a certain point on the social graph, the official doctrine would automatically kick in and start getting mixed into the discourse.
So take everything you hear about NK with a grain of salt.
Again, maybe I should not extrapolate like this. Maybe NK is a special case. I guess we'll find out one day, after the insanity is over and that land becomes free again.
The world had its chance to end this epic tragedy for 50 years and it did nothing. Now the madman has some nukes and all options are out of the question.
Good job world peace. Way ta go.
The UN have sanctions against North Korea because of its nuclear testing. Negotiations for nuclear disarmament (if successful) allow reductions of the economic sanctions. Improving its economy will directly help the people to some degree.
Activists help pressure governments into bringing up issues at summits (or at the very least they raise awareness in the general community) which can lead to better communication and trade ties.
So its clear that some amount of aid, negotiation and activism can help the people of a struggling country.
Invading a country in that situation will lead to loss of life. It is also expensive and will probably cause deep seated hatred for many years, which in history has led to more conflicts down the line.
The parent comment doesn't deserve 9 points, it doesn't even deserve 2 points. It just appeals to our propensities for aggression.
I think its time to recognize that war is sometimes the answer, whether or not you think it appeals to our human aggression.
I'm not sure just how deeply indoctrinated those people are. Is an uprising still possible? (my guess is yes) If so, a surgical-precision hit targeting "Dear Leader" might be enough to provide the initial spark. I'm sure this option is being considered somewhere, somehow. Whether it's deemed worth giving it a try, and whether it's successful remains to be seen.
It's partly because of war-mongering articles like this from the NYT that americans are so intent on war as a universal tool to "help" other countries.
If it makes you any happier, as soon as some very precious natural resource is found in North Korea you can be sure there will be US troops.
A war-mongering NYT article? That is a contradiction in terms.
The only reason we haven't invaded is because China is protecting North Korea, and they're only really doing that because they don't want a massive flood of refugees into their country.
No, but the North Korea regime is based upon fanatic nationalism, which isn't really that different.
But all of this is a side show. The real reason North Korea has not been invaded is because the Seoul metro-area holds 24 million South Korean citizens, and most of it is extremely vulnerable to potential artillery bombardment from North Korea. Realistically the North Koreans could kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of South Koreans in no more than a day of shelling if war broke out on the peninsula. The only way for the south to effectively wage war would be to completely evacuate Seoul as a prelude, and that action alone would probably trigger a war before the evacuation was complete.
This, of course, doesn't even begin to factor in nuclear weapons.
The Korean peninsula is a long, ongoing hostage situation. North Korea holds its own population hostage as well as much of South Korea. This is why so little progress has been made on getting rid of the North Korean regime, there are only bad options and even worse options at this point.
But the United States Government not taking out Communist China and Kim Sung-il's North Korea during the Korean War has to be one of the largest war mistakes in history. So much misery could have been avoided if they'd done it the way Chiang Kai-shek wanted and pushed through Korea into China. The Communists got a huge boost from seizing the Imperial Japanese weapons after WWII, but they were still far underequipped compared to the U.N. forces in South Korea. Then the Soviets got nuclear weapons and the stand-still happened, and lots of people suffered for it.
North Korea has to be one of the most vicious places in the world. I'd sign up pretty quickly if an international coalition went to tear down its government.
also their talk at Google is very, very impressive... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2531661047425836509
It gives a very clear picture of what's happening in North Korea, and about the situation for North Koreans inside and outside of North Korea (I was going to write '...their country', but that doesn't really seem correct).
It is from 2007, but (as far as I know) the situation hasn't changed much. Althoug the South Korean "Sunshine Policy" has now been stopped. Due to a change of government a bit over a year ago, not in response to the more recent naval conflict.
Two things the speaker said that stood out to me: 1. This humanitarian disaster is totally man-made. 2. This is a place in which the word "evil" really does apply.
These people have been on complete lockdown for fifty years and shut out from the world, both mentally and physically.
This leadership needs to be destroyed, they are committing too many atrocities.
What does LiNK do?
We raise awareness about the human rights and humanitarian crisis in North Korea through the use of media and grassroots support. We help those who have fled their country because of this crisis – refugees – by sheltering them, advocating for them to governments all over the world, helping them resettle in countries that will accept them, and ultimately empowering them to live new lives.
Trust me, I know, I've been "there" (in a general sense, not the geographical location).
personally I think the US should agree to take any refugees that come across the border into China. We can just take them to South Korea. Maybe that will make it easier for China to stop supporting this twisted situation.
I do agree though that these people need support.
I don’t think simplistic portrayals of history and ideologies – like yours – are very helpful.
Here is my version: Identify which concepts, ideas and methods turned North Korea to the state it is today. Discourage the use of those concepts, ideas and methods whenever they are proposed. This is probably best done by pointing out errors or inconsistencies or by presenting alternatives.
They even have bona fide anti-tyranny credentials: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Social_Democrati...
And that’s just one example.
I should probably clarify that I really have no qualms with the first sentence of the grandparent’s comment. A generalization, maybe, but markets do work great in many situations and freedom created tremendous wealth and happiness. I just think that you shouldn’t use the term “Socialism” in the way the grandparent did. It just has too much history and too many ideas, concepts and methods connected with it.
Isn't what they aim for more like "social insurance"? Insurance seems to be a concept that can be reconciled with capitalism.
All I wanted to say is that they started out with Socialism and didn’t turn everything they touched into North Korea. Which means that tyranny is not the logical consequence of Socialism.
EDIT: I'm sorry to say, but it seems like the majority of people in the US use this word a lot without having any idea what it really means. It's become empty, a visceral cry, bypassing rational thought entirely. This too shall pass, I guess, but for now it's pretty sad.
Even Milton Friedman was in favor of redistributing wealth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax
What is happening in North Korea is an illustration of what policies of control lead to. What's interesting is that most of the people of North Korea, because they don't know any better, don't realize the cause of their poverty.
We are in a similar situation with regards to fiat currency here in the west. Although we are not dirt poor like the North Koreans, we are still a lot poorer than we should be because of the huge portion of our economies consumed by government and especially because of fiat currency. Like the North Koreans, most people can't even conceive of a commodity-based, non-government-controlled, free-market currency. As a result, they are blind to the true cause of business cycles and their stagnant purchasing power.
The best way to increase wealth is to spread truth.
But that's not the point. The point is the potentially very high civilian casualties.