US considers cabin laptop ban on flights from UK airports | Hacker News Reader

US considers cabin laptop ban on flights from UK airports

theguardian.com

20 pointsk-mcgrady25 comments

Was already posted earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14192644

My chief concern with this situation is that when these rules are applied you're essentially moving li-ion batteries into the hold of the aircraft. Laptops that are accidentally left on could overheat in suitcases, tablets could get impact damage during turbulence etc. Surely this is a huge fire risk?

I recently flew and was asked if I had spare batteries or e-cig devices in the bags I wanted to check in since they aren't allowed in checked luggage - presumably for this reason. In fact, I just did some searching and found this article: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-07/laptop-ba...

Are there fire suppression systems in modern airliners? Would they be able to stop a laptop battery that's combusting?

My girlfriend just went through an airline training course and, yes, they can stop electrical fires, like batteries, on-board. On a surprising note, they might be even able to handle bombs if these are detected before an explosion. They have procedures for most dangerous stuff, had no idea.

So where could one carry a laptop, and have it covered in case of loss? Not in checked baggage:

British Airways conditions of carriage:

8f) Fragile or perishable items must not be packed in baggage checked into the hold

You must not include in your checked baggage fragile or perishable items or items of special value such as:

  money
  jewellery
  precious metals
  computers
  personal electronic devices
  share certificates, bonds and other valuable documents
  business documents or
  passports and other identification documents.

15e7) We are not liable in any way whatever for damage to or loss of items which you include in your checked baggage although you are forbidden from including them under clauses 8c, 8d or 8f, or in the case of permitted firearms you have not complied with the conditions for including them under clause 8d, except as provided for by the Convention. These items include fragile or perishable items, items with a special value, such as money, jewellery, precious metals, computers, personal electronic devices, share certificates, bonds and other valuable documents, business documents, or passports and other identification documents. In the event of any claim for damage, delay or loss, we may avail ourself of all defences of contributory negligence specified in the Convention.

https://www.britishairways.com/en-us/information/legal/briti...

> So where could one carry a laptop, and have it covered in case of loss?

In a box, to your local Fedex office.

I'm sure there's some insurance you can buy to cover it. Consider it ultimately part of the cost of the ticket.

Is this ban just typical security theater? Surely a device which does have explosives in it is going to be problematic in the hold too. Why not fix the actual problem and upgrade the protocol for checking devices when going through security. They already go through the X-ray machine and are often dusted for chemicals. Is anybody really comfortable putting a $1k laptop in a hold bag which far too often gets lost/stolen/broken? Also seems like a very easy way to have lots of people's data get stolen (most people aren't encrypting their devices).

It'd be interesting to put tamper-evident seals on the data ports of any machines you are forced to put in checked luggage.

With that level of paranoia, I'd be more likely to Fedex my laptop overnight, inside a ziploc bag with evidence tape covering it - since I believe that the TSA is allowed to open and inspect any luggage, whereas Fedex/UPS/etc doesn't open packages in transit (as far as I'm aware).

If you ship from the UK to the US, the package can be opened to check for security threats (probably if it looks odd on the xray). Happened to me several times. Everything transported on a plane has to be checked to avoid having a bomb on a cargo plane.

Put the whole thing into a tamper evident bag. Very cheap, and more resistant to evil maid attacks. Get the type made of Mylar foil with sequential numbering. Pack the battery on the outside if you can, or there might be an easy reason for them to open the bag. Also, if power is available they may try to operate it through the bag, poking tiny wires through the plastic to touch the USB ports.

If you stick some unexposed 400 ISO B&W photographic film, spiral wound with alfoil to increasing thickness, in an opaque envelope, into the pouch you can see how many times they x-rayed it, vs other items; c.f. dosimeter.

I like the dosimeter idea.

With a whole bag, there are plausible reasons for opening the bag. If port seals are defeated, there's little reason other than data-level intrusion. (Also want to seal case screws in the same way).

Who the hell puts explosives in electronics? Even more so, who puts explosives in electronics that will have no other option if laptops are forbidden?!

In 2010, two bombs concealed in laser printer cartridges were found in freight planes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_planes_bomb_plot

It's not too uncommon. Pan Am 103 was brought down by a bomb built into a portable tape player, for example. Electronics are a good place to hide bombs because the complex internal structure makes it hard to notice explosives when they're x-rayed. This is why you have to send laptops through the x-ray machine separately and why they'll sometimes ask you to turn it on to prove that it works (so you can't hollow it out completely and just use the case for your bomb).

You'd have other options, but nothing that large. Size does matter. Pan Am 103 is about as small as a bomb can possibly be and still destroy the airplane, and even that was only possible because of an extremely unlucky placement of the bomb within the cargo hold.

Presumably, someone who doesn't want to carry big, round, black bombs with a fuse sticking out of the top, with the text "BOMB" painted on the side.

There really aren't a huge number of options left for concealing a small amount of explosives, given the current restrictions on pretty much everything we take onto airplanes.

I always wondered: what is the point of taking laptops out of your bag and putting them in a separate tray?

It's so the scanner operators can tell there's nothing hidden underneath your laptop. I'm not sure whether the laptop case (or just the battery?) can actually block the scanners, or it just makes the output image harder to interpret. Either way, I guess they want to be sure...

And so we go down the slippery slope. Next it'll be worldwide.

And what happens to your laptop in your checked baggage? Why essentially security will have console access... some might even forget to shut off instead of sleep their device.

The whole notion that laptops are safer in the hold as opposed to the cabin is backwards.

The cabin is has more sensitive cargo than the hold. Whereas an explosion or explosive deflageration in the hold is contained in engineered luggage bins, buffered with clothing padding, and placed in a random location, in the passenger cabin it could be placed at a specific point. Also, the environmental system pumps to the hold sections can be turned off to cut fresh air to any fire.

Comparatively, the notion that some passengers will act meaningfully to put out a fire in the cabin is laughable, it would be a mass panic and everybody and dying.

However, with 200g of high explosive, and an aluminium laptop to form an explosively formed penetrator, there is going to be a big hole in the plane no matter where it goes off. Compared to the stuff being used against coalition forces in Iraq a few years ago, no particular technical challenge. So quite worrying.

Meanwhile, whatever companies provides in-flight movie rentals are dancing a happy little jig.

Isn't this always free to the passenger? I've never had to rent a movie on a flight that has an entertainment system.

Depends on the airline and on the flight. This past weekend I took a United flight where DirecTV was available, but you had to pay for it past the first few minutes. Really pissed me off too, since it was a night flight and nobody paid for it but all eleventy-hundred seatback screens stayed illuminated the whole time showing ads.

I've seen other flights with pay-per-view systems for on-demand movies and TV shows. Good airlines make them available for free, but not all airlines are good.

As to the grandparent comment's point, smartphones are still allowed, so I imagine people will watch their movies on that. It's not the best experience, but still better than those craptastic seatback screens.

What happens when I arrive and my MacBook is gone?

You have to buy a new Macbook and if you don't have your own insurance, you'll be paying for it out of your own pocket.

Here's United's liability clause, showing that their liability is around $500 if they lose your entire 50 lb bag, but if you lose just a laptop, good luck proving that they are liable... and if you do, maybe they'll give you $18 for your 3 lb laptop:

For international travel to which the Warsaw Convention applies (including domestic portions of international travel), United's liability is limited to approximately $9.07 USD/CAD per pound up to $640.00 USD/CAD per bag for checked baggage and $400.00 USD/CAD per customer for unchecked baggage.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/baggage/liab...

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