Comment by sandGorgon | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sandGorgon | Hacker News Reader

@shykes - so im one of the lonely few that love Docker Swarmkit (not Swarm - cos, that would be too confusing right !). I have spent a lot of time in the Kubernetes ecosystem (including several SIG) and value the batteries-included setup that Docker Swarm brings.

More recently, I was part of a discussion where Kubernetes has decided to roll its own logging infrastructure, while leaving important parts like log rotation still undecided.... driving me even closer to the Docker ecosystem.

However, it seems that Swarmkit is a big casualty of the whole CE/EE (and now Moby) split. Docker EE (https://www.docker.com/enterprise-edition) still does not mention Swarmkit anywhere. In fact, there is NO top-level page on Docker's own site that actually mentions Swarmkit [1] and even Docker "Swarm-mode" is part of some second level documentation and help pages.

It makes me really worried about how you are seeing Swarm-mode/Swarmkit as part of the long term future of Docker Inc. You guys really dont talk about it - not even on twitter.

I'm assuming this is your handle as well (https://twitter.com/dockerswarm), which has not seen a tweet since Jan 2017. However, you guys do tweet a lot about "Docker Datacenter".

What's going on ?

[1] https://www.google.co.in/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1...

> More recently, I was part of a discussion where Kubernetes has decided to roll its own logging infrastructure, while leaving important parts like log rotation still undecided.... driving me even closer to the Docker ecosystem.

Can you please refer to this particular discussion and link to it here, I would like to make sure that this indeed is what happened.

I don;t think that is really what happened. :) As part of the runtime abstraction, kubernetes must necessarily decide how to handle stdout/stderr logs. Not having a decision for something at a given point in time is not exactly a bad thing.

Thanks, this seemed to be quite unusual decision to be made by the Kubernetes dev community, that's why I've asked.

Hi, I'm from sig-node. We just don't have enough time/people to cover all log management in 1.6, this is just a temp workaronud so we can ship CRI in time. Log mgmt, together with some other missing parts will be definitely picked up after CRI fully released.

I recommend that you learn from the world around you. This is a long since addressed problem. This is the way that the daemontools world has been addressing logging since the middle 1990s, and there is a lot of design and implementation experience to draw upon and learn from.

The ideas of decoupling logs from lifetimes of the the things being logged, desynchronized log-watcher services that ship logs to central off-machine log stores, logging chains, shims for things that talk to syslog over AF_LOCAL or UDP sockets, shims for things that talk to the systemd journal using its idiosyncratic logging protocol, compartmentalized logging services that are protected by the operating system from compromises to the logged services, and persistent log pipes that do not lose log data; have all been designed and implemented.

* http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html#Logging

* http://jdebp.eu./FGA/do-not-use-logrotate.html

* http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/guide/logging.html

* http://skarnet.org/software/s6/s6-log.html#diesyslogdiedie

* http://skarnet.org/software/s6/s6-log.html#loggingchain

* http://tinydns.org/#ContributedLogging

For independent reasons, I would rather not go into it because the discussion became borderline heated. My perspective was that it was inconsiderate to not give a path for kubernetes logging to work with journald which is now default on Redhat, Ubuntu, Debian and Coreos. I don't say journald should be the only supported format...But it's wasteful to have the pendulum swing the whole other way.

The last known proposal is here https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/contribu...

You can check the rotation part. Btw, yes I am aware there was increased journald support added in 1.6 . And I'm hoping that more reasonable minds prevail.

I get very worried when people say "the format+kubectl cli is more important. we will figure out the mechanics of easy stuff like logrotation later. until then you can use a cronjob. systemd is obviously a monopoly."

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