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Comment by bullsandabears | Hacker News Reader

In either the day-to-day or 'team-building' events, does anyone have office cultures with a consciously positive attitude to 'shy' people?

I think the whole subtext and title of this article shows the ignorant extrovert's problem. The article is judging whether the extroverts should bestow their social acceptance on the introvert.

Just because you are the only one talking does not mean there's nothing more to be said. And just because you are talking does not mean there is anything to be said.

On the flipside, are there cultures that have disdain for unbridled extroversion and gossip? North America seems to revel in both those things but the biggest hits to company morale I've seen have always been from the 'outgoing' spreading their negativity through multiple separate conversations or steering meetings on downward spiral narratives.

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I've yet to encounter an office culture that makes accommodations for shy people. I think that in the absence of conscious effort to elicit or 'make space' for less extroverted people to express opinions and make observations, then traditional office workplaces are biased against against 'shy' people by default.

I think that's rather unfortunate. It means that your company/division/whatever is missing out on roughly half the good insight and ideas collectively held by their workforce. I don't see it changing any time soon either. Every big change that I've seen in 'the way we work' always seems to favour the preferences of extroverts (bullpens, open-plan offices, hot-desking etc.).

It seems that the world is run by extroverts, for extroverts.

To be heard, one must expend effort. There is no way around it.

Some people are paid to be heard, instead of spending their own effort on it.

This depends on how valuable one's opinion is in the eyes of the people around. If you think that the high-class people you hired after a lot of sifting for the best-fitting candidates are really valuable, and may harbor interesting thoughts, maybe an effort should be exerted to get these opinions from them, in the way comfortable for them.

Everyone does better with a support system, for the reasons you state and more.

Other people's attention is a limited resource, and the more someone can do on their own to engage everyone else, the better off they and everyone else will be.

Of course. Some people just need some encouragement, and it makes pretty good business sense to provide it, at least in an industry like software development which will probably attract a disproportionate share of shy people.

I used to be very shy. My first boss out of college recognized this and went out of his way a few times to help me out. He more or less changed my life. I ended up going into management of all things in that company, so it paid off for the company too. Even if he was just being altruistic, his company profited from it.

I fully agree. Mentorship matters. It has had a positive impact in my life, too. But to expect it in lieu of internal motivations is to deny one's own internal agency. One needs both.

I hear what you're saying, although I think I do make this effort. But after the 5th of 6th time I'm interrupted halfway through a sentence, usually by the same person who's been essentially thinking out loud for 80% of the meeting, I run out of steam and just give up.

This is what I mean by 'making room'. I'm not expecting people to ask me what I think, or for everyone to take turns or something silly like that. But I do think that if other participants are incapable of 'playing nice' then the senior person in the room, who's essentially 'chairing' the meeting, should jump in at some point. Or maybe my contributions aren't as valuable as I think. Who knows.

I really don't know how to deal with this kind of situation on my own. I've tried everything. The only thing that has ever really worked is the hyper-aggressive "excuse me, I wasn't finished", spoken at a volume slightly louder than the person interrupting (so basically shouting).

I don't want to do that sort of thing. Sure, it works, but it also makes the rest of the meeting very uncomfortable and unpleasant for all involved. And I suspect if done more than a few times I'll end up with a pretty bad reputation (not to mention an enemy or two, for little gain). Believe me, I'm not a timid person and I'm not afraid to speak my mind. If I have to make an enemy to get something important done, I will. But, if given the choice, I'd strongly prefer that adults speak to one another in a civilised manner.

I pretty much just avoid meetings now, if I can.

Believe me, I am sympathetic. I am naturally quite introverted, and although I do not have difficulty talking with people, doing so wears me out, even if it's with people I care about. It's just how I'm wired.

I think the best advice I can give is to listen to how genuinely empathetic speakers hold the rooms' attention. Try not to think of it as a zero-sum game. If the way you are conveying your ideas is in a way that captivates, you will not be spoken over. Conversely, if the way you're relaying information is combative or confrontational, people will talk over you, even if you have the empirically best ideas in the room.

It sounds like we have nearly identical personalities. Long lost brothers maybe :)

Yeah I figured out the confrontational thing a couple of years ago... after not realising it was an issue for about the first three years of my career. When I'm discussing an idea or an opinion, I tend to view it as totally separate from myself. So I really don't mind if someone attacks 'my' idea or opinion, and I'm generally pretty happy to jettison it if it becomes clear that it's wrong.

For those first three years I just assumed other people saw things the same way. Nope. Was pretty mortified when I realised that I'd probably been upsetting or offending people when I thought was we were just having a really interesting and vigorous discussion.

Have you ever taken a Myers-Briggs test? INTx? At any rate, thanks for the advice. It's a timely reminder that I need to put more conscious effort into improving here. It's all too easy to just lapse into misanthropy...

Heh. Cheers, my friend. I can relate. And yes, INTJ. :D

Yep, long lost brothers :)

> I really don't know how to deal with this kind of situation on my own. I've tried everything. The only thing that has ever really worked is the hyper-aggressive "excuse me, I wasn't finished", spoken at a volume slightly louder than the person interrupting (so basically shouting).

I have the same problem and likewise, this is the only thing that I've found that works.

When someone talks over you, you stop, right? And they probably ramble on, oblivious? Each time this happens and you don't act on it, you're training them to talk over you. After a while, they won't think twice about interrupting you, and at that point, you have to be quite aggressive to turn things around.

It's really hard, but the best way to avoid this is train yourself out of stopping instantly when someone talks over you. Instead, keep talking and make eye contact with them. This is a pretty strong social cue to show you're not finished. If they keep talking regardless, then directly comment (and it only needs to be mildly, since we're behaving as if it's accidental) on the fact that you weren't finished. If they're still going after that then either they have a better point than you and they have the authority to interrupt you, or they're being a prat and everyone will be noting this behaviour, not just you.

I'm still pretty bad at this, but I'm getting better, and it does get easier with practice.

Thanks! That is really helpful, practical advice. I definitely get tripped up by the stopping thing; it's like this weird politeness reflex or something. Your point about 'training' others to talk over me is quite insightful.

Although it probably doesn't come across this way from my previous post, I'm actually pretty relaxed if someone innocently/accidentally interrupts me. I'll usually do the whole 'no please, after you' thing. But I can see how I might be creating a rod for my own back if I do this in the wrong situation...

So thanks again for the advice: I need to stop conditioning others to interrupt me. I'm assuming I'm not allowed to go in the complete opposite direction with this though: immediately applying aversive stimuli when it happens. It might be a little unprofessional :)

"hyper-aggressive "excuse me, I wasn't finished""

I wouldn't call that aggressive, certainly not hyper aggressive. To me aggressive means attacking, this I would consider defending. Do be polite however, and act as though it was an accident.

"I'm assuming I'm not allowed to go in the complete opposite direction with this though"

I really, really wouldn't :) Some people are just passionate about their ideas, and extroverts seem to have even more energy for social interaction. They might just be having a hard time staying quiet, treat it as a mistake rather than maliciousness.

The problem with the extroverts is that they don't produce much useful work, unless their work is really tied to extroversion, such as in sales. Otherwise they mostly just run around being extroverted in my experience.

The problem for the introverts is that their contributions may go unrecognized because they don't "sell" themselves. This is of course is a problem for the company as well since incentives are skewed -- from actually doing real work that benefits the company to selling your own person inside the organization (which provides zero value to customers).

What an incredibly arrogant introverted opinion. Being introverted isn't a super power, and I've met quite a few introverted workers who produced sub-par work because they didn't like to actually talk to the clients or their manager before the fire started.

In Germany I've encountered that as simply "quiet". As long as you get the job done and can communicate enough to make the work efficient, no on the job socialising required, unless you want to quickly rise Through the ranks

And just because you're being quiet doesn't mean you're being thoughtful.

I have found that working with Pivotal's form of Agile Programming with pairing has been incredibly helpful in bringing me out of my shell.

This might sound surprising considering it is considered a very social atmosphere

To me bringing someone from they shell does not sound positive. Snails, tortoises and similar creatures would not be happy about that, why should humans be?

I think in this case we refer to the turtle (or a snail) reaching outside of the shell with their appendages, not completely abandoning the shell. This usually happens after the moment of danger (the one which prompted the retreat inside the shell) has passed and the animal feels safe again.

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